NRM loco workshop to close

[t-b-g]

4 hours ago, Rivercider said:

I would take the opposite view, in that I do want to learn about the social impact of railways when I am visiting a railway museum. It does not need to be covered with every caption or display board, but it is quite possible to reference the role of navvies, women on the railways, (or whatever) in certain relevant places.

In fact I find that sort of thing interesting in every museum or heritage centre I visit, whatever the main subject.

 

I have only made one visit to the NRM in recent years, I enjoyed the visit, the most interesting bits to me were the quieter areas which the general public seemed to find the least interesting, 

 

cheers

 

3 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

But surely they can cover both? As you point out, there are other museums which do. Anyway, depending on how it is defined ‘how they worked’ is partly social history.

 

One place that I thought (when I visited) covers the social history of railways well is the Museum of Rail Travel at Ingrow, though this is probably partly because of its focus on railway carriages.

 

In theory, a good museum would show the complete picture and the intersection of technical and social history, but since the NRM is part of the Science Museum Group then perhaps it is supposed to have more of a focus on STEM education.

 

I do like the NRM’s Royal Train exhibit and I can’t really think where else these vehicles could be preserved and displayed, if not at the NRM. On the other hand, I can’t entirely see how displaying all of the Royal carriages from different eras simultaneously (as opposed to, for instance, having a representative example that is swapped over occasionally) is particularly helpful for learning about the social or technical history of railways.

 

If you wanted to use a specific “type” of train as a case study to show changes over time then in some ways it could actually be more interesting to have representative examples of ordinary commuter trains (I’m thinking these would probably be individual carriages rather than a whole EMU or complete loco-hauled train though, given likely space constraints). This would allow you to explore various social and technological aspects of railway history (and, crucially, how social and technological factors influenced each other), e.g. faster long-distance travel being made possible by railways, electrification and the technology behind it, the concept of ‘suburbs’ around major cities, changes to signalling, rolling stock design etc. This could be relatable for a lot of visitors and the stock involved would demonstrate more change over time than the Royal Train vehicles.

 

I agree that many people may have an interest in the social history side of things. It just doesn't do anything for me.

 

It is just that when you go to the NRM website, the main "tag line" that you see is:

 

"IMMERSE YOURSELF IN THE HOME OF ICONIC LOCOMOTIVES AND AN UNRIVALLED COLLECTION OF ENGINEERING BRILLIANCE".

 

That would be just my sort of museum.

 

My view is that the NRM is moving away from that aim and is reducing its loco and engineering content (one stage being the removal of the workshop) and replacing it with the social history side of things and that is not what I personally want to see.

 

It is a personal view and I don't expect everybody else to feel the same way. 

[Phil Parker]

4 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Whilst onboard a young man dressed as Brunel came across and talked to us - not a gimmick as I first thought the guy was interesting, enthusiastic and knowledgeable.. Perhaps the sort of thing the NRM could do - plenty Geordies just up the road - Why aye man, !!!!

 

Back in 1993, the Manx museum in Peel had someone dressed as a Viking to tell visitors about Odin's Raven. The new museum has more people dressed up in a replica roundhouse (not the train sort) and I know other musems have tried the same thing.

 

[Phil Parker]

5 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

The point is that the sort of engineering seen in museums is very much historic while engineering students will be looking to the future. I know that this isn't universally true but it is largely true.

 

This is an important point. It's all very well saying we must "keep the old skills alive" but many of these have been superseded by more modern methods. A good example is the cylinder block for the new build Patriot. The master is 3D printed rather than created using traditional methods in wood. Why? It's cheaper if you are only building a single loco. Maybe for a long production run, the reusable wood version scores over the modern version, but this isn't a long run. A lot of those old methods were also the latest thing in their day.

 

It's a bit like the moans of model engineers that kids are taught 3D CAD rather than how to work a Myford. The trouble is, they need the CAD for future work where machining is carried out by CNC equipment, so sensibly IMHO, that's what the schools teach. Teaching a kid how to turn something up using imperial measurements just to "save" the model engineering hobby in it's traditional form doesn't seem a good use of time or money.

 

Maybe part of the problem is that loco restoration has changed, as exemplified by the Patriot. It's much less about blokes getting together to hit bits of metal with hammers every weekend and more about raising the cash to send the thing to professionals who will carry out a faster, and better, job. They tend to work in dedicated and well equipped workshops that aren't suited to members of the public strolling around, or even gawping in from a balcony. Does the NRM workshop serve the same purpose it used to? Would they try to restore a loco in-house or just send it to a professional, something many enthusiasts said should have happened to Scotsman much earlier in the rebuild.

[DK123GWR]

7 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Your "Burtons dummy" is someone whose job it is to explain stuff for the average member of the public, not a time served engineer able to teach visitors how to build an engine. You could have such a person, but they would want much higher wages than the "dummy" and for a publicly funded museum, that cash has to come from somewhere. How much extra tax are you willing to pay?

 

As an aside, Sidley Holloway from the current underground TV programme is in charge of those "dummies" for the LT museum, and from the feedback on here, she seems to be doing a good job.

 

6 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

 I really do mean a Burtons Dummy. 

Just to emphasise the point, here is a link to the STEAM virtual tour, showing the dummies in question. I agree that they are sometimes hard to hear and understand them - and at the age of 18 I sincerely hope my ears aren't to blame for that.

 

I thought I'd edit this to add that I am dissapointed with the way STEAM has changed since I was a young child. The loss of the hall that used to contain models and nameplates to a conference venue was quite sad. I might have found it dull when I was very young, but nowadays I would like to wander around it. Not every artifact would be of interest, but I'm sure that quite a number would, and I certainly enjoyed the similar hall when I last went to York. I hope that in its new role as a conference centre it is at least able to provide revenue to support the rest of the museum.

 

I also used to love the steam loco simulator - despite being too young to really get the most out of it. I can't remember the last time I saw it working, which is a great shame as I think that was an attraction which provided something for people of all ages (though I suppose it probably also had high maintenance costs). On the other hand, what does remain is still quite good. The signal box simulator is excellent as a way of engaging people and teaching them about semaphore signalling, something which most people below a certain age will harly ever have encountered. It branches off from just displaying rolling stock to show how the railways themselves worked, which is something I approve of. The model railway is also excellent from what I remember of it.

Edited August 7, 2021 by DK123GWR

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Does the NRM workshop serve the same purpose it used to? Would they try to restore a loco in-house or just send it to a professional, something many enthusiasts said should have happened to Scotsman much earlier in the rebuild.

If they no longer have engineers, volunteers, staff or supporters with the skills, all they have is a silent workshop full of tools and a shed full of static exhibits. 

 

In which case they will need new paid attractions like proposed , so they can afford to pay professionals to do overhauls , and hire in locos from the private sector.

3 years in to the plan, which was due for review this year, 4771 and 1247 still haven't progressed, whilst since, the prototype HST has been unexpectedly retired.

https://www.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/op-rail-vehicle-strategy-2019_FINAL.pdf

I always found this comment interesting..

Quote

The museum’s strength lies in the unique locomotives. It is not viable to operate anything
which the private sector already covers and for which there are multiple examples – such as the majority of our diesel fleet, or a Black 5 or Castle Class steam locomotive.

This phrase has existed since the days of late John Bellwood, and was given in part, for retirement reasons of 6000, 46229 and 92220.

Yet, 30 yesrs on, of those selected to operate in the above plan, 70013, 30587, D6700, 33116, 44027, RSH Agecroft, 101, 142 are all duplicated in preservation.

Edited August 7, 2021 by adb968008

[Steamport Southport]

22 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

That's a real shame, as it was very good. The MSIM seems to be losing everything that made it special. 

 

A bit like Liverpool Museum.

 

Most of the interesting exhibits aren't even on display and probably never will be again.

 

Things such as Cecil Raikes - Mersey Railway 0-6-4T

The Liverpool & Manchester replica coaches

MD&HB No1 Avonside 0-6-0ST Which should be displayed below the LOR Electric Car

The old Fire Engine that used to be popular with kids and was even used during the Blitz.

The old lorries they used to have on display

Even the Mersey Tunnel Scrubber!

 

https://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/collections/land-transport?page=1?cas__type=all

 

All of them significant in the history of Liverpool. Yet missing from the new monolithic carbuncle of a museum that was quite high on the reasons that Liverpool lost World Heritage Status the other week. It's a total eyesore.

 

If you want to know why museums are skint. It's the constant wasting of taxpayers money on schemes and ideas. They are probably better funded than they've ever been through Lottery money. They just waste it on nonsense.

 

 

 

Jason

[t-b-g]

One of the most enjoyable museums I have visited was the complex at Blists Hill. It has many workshops and cottage industry settings where you can watch how things used to be done in past times.

 

If I was running the NRM, I would be looking to set up areas that replicate how a loco shed, a locomotive works and a goods shed used to work, along with a small wayside station, complete with a ticket office and perhaps a replica of the sort of lodging rooms that loco staff used to stay in on overnight turns with all the tools and skills demonstrated. That would include a workshop where real people are using real tools and equipment on a real loco or carriage. A segment of the lines around the turntable would be made into a period loco shed scene.

 

I would probably build a small station and goods yard in the outside area and have a representative pick up goods demonstrate the art of shunting wagons.

 

I could just imagine a wheel turning lathe, or a painter and liner, with people explaining what they do as they demonstrate their skills. Or a line up of locos with each one at a different stage of being prepared for duty, with all the inspections, firelighting, oiling etc.

 

I would build a basic coaling stage of the sort seen all over the railway network to illustrate that all those tons of coal were more often than not manhandled from a wagon, to a stage, to the bunker/tender.

 

Such things would not only show how the railways used to look but would also illustrate the working conditions of those involved in the tasks. Railway history and social history combined but using real railway artifacts. These could be combined with digital displays showing it happening for real back in the day, as plenty of film exists.

 

What I wouldn't be doing is removing the real railway items and replacing them with digital versions. The digital content should enhance the artifacts, not replace them.

 

Still, it isn't my job so that is all just me daydreaming of my ideal NRM!

 

  

Edited August 7, 2021 by t-b-g
Spelling

[Rivercider]

6 hours ago, APOLLO said:

A few years ago whilst having a day out in Bristol from the Forest of Dean we visited Brunel's iron ship, the SS Great Britain. Whilst I thought at the time a little expensive, it was an enjoyable visit and I thought the semi restoration etc very well done. Whilst onboard a young man dressed as Brunel came across and talked to us - not a gimmick as I first thought the guy was interesting, enthusiastic and knowledgeable.. Perhaps the sort of thing the NRM could do - plenty Geordies just up the road - Why aye man, !!!!

 

Brit15

I visited the SS Great Britain 2 years ago, and it was just about the best museum/heritage visit (I was there for hours) I have ever had, and I am a railway enthusiast with  passing interest in ships. There was a chap dressed as Brunel's clerk (?) in his office on the dockside , a knowledgeable and enthusiastic man, he added to the expeirience.

 

cheers

[sir douglas]

the tank museum does a very good job of both sides ad is a good example of whats possible, it doesnt just preserve the machines and display them but also with context of the where and when with the stories and personal items of the crews in cases nearby, they have archives of not just test reports but soldiers diaries and and their own interview recordings of veterans from both sides now long since passed on. Currently in the museum, all the exhibits are arranged in 1 big timeline so people can much more easily understand the development, they have just last year opened a new big workshop capable of heavy restorations without having to use a crane outside and they have apprentices learning from the experienced old guys. 

[RichardT]

23 hours ago, Classsix T said:

My point being wrt RichardT's post, that we don't necessarily need to attach a linked culpability to every instance of a progressive sociatal improvement.

I didn't say that. I was outlining a range of issues above and beyond the more obvious technical and historical specialisms which a serious national museum would debate as appropriate across the full range of its output - which is more than just object display labels.

 

One of the interesting things about railways is that the direct technological drivers for their development are largely free from association with learning how to efficiently kill large numbers of people, so it's not a given.  (Apart from the manufacture of cylinders owing something to cannon technology.  OK, all generalisations are dangerous. Including this one.)

 

RT

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by RichardT
Missed a word out.

[Dava]

2 hours ago, t-b-g said:

One of the most enjoyable museums I have visited was the complex at Blists Hill. It has many workshops and cottage industry settings where you can watch how things used to be done in past times.

 

If I was running the NRM, I would be looking to set up areas that replicate how a loco shed, a locomotive works and a goods shed used to work, along with a small wayside station, complete with a ticket office and perhaps a replica of the sort of lodging rooms that loco staff used to stay in on overnight turns with all the tools and skills demonstrated. That would include a workshop where real people are using real tools and equipment on a real loco or carriage. A segment of the lines around the turntable would be made into a period loco shed scene.

 

I would probably build a small station and goods yard in the outside area and have a representative pick up goods demonstrate the art of shunting wagons.

 

I could just imagine a wheel turning lathe, or a painter and liner, with people explaining what they do as they demonstrate their skills. Or a line up of locos with each one at a different stage of being prepared for duty, with all the inspections, firelighting, oiling etc.

 

I would build a basic coaling stage of the sort seen all over the railway network to illustrate that all those tons of coal were more often than not manhandled from a wagon, to a stage, to the bunker/tender.

 

Such things would not only show how the railways used to look but would also illustrate the working conditions of those involved in the tasks. Railway history and social history combined but using real railway artifacts. These could be combined with digital displays showing it happening for real back in the day, as plenty of film exists.

 

What I wouldn't be doing is removing the real railway items and replacing them with digital versions. The digital content should enhance the artifacts, not replace them.

 

Still, it isn't my job so that is all just me daydreaming of my ideal NRM!

 

  

Much of this can be experienced at Marley Hill on the Tanfield Railway and to some extent close by at Beamish Museum, much more than either of the NRM sites. If you want to experience a steam railway, visit a steam railway….

[t-b-g]

5 minutes ago, Dava said:

Much of this can be experienced at Marley Hill on the Tanfield Railway and to some extent close by at Beamish Museum, much more than either of the NRM sites. If you want to experience a steam railway, visit a steam railway….

 

I do visit preserved railways far more than I visit the NRM. I haven't been to Beamish for many years and I have never been to Tanfield because they are probably just too far for a day out in terms of driving at both ends of what would have to be a very long day.

 

Loughborough and the KWVR are probably the two nearest to me and I have spent many happy days at both.

 

A couple of hours in the shed at Loughborough or in the Vintage Carriage Trust shed at Ingrow makes me come over all contented and happy! Being able to walk along a row of ancient carriages and to see some under restoration at the workshop end, or to walk down a line of locos undergoing minor or major work just ticks all the boxes for me.

 

I just wish the NRM was more like those sorts of places. Neither of the places I have mentioned is a genuine old railway building in its natural place but they both just feel like I have stepped back into a workshop or shed from the past. They have created an atmosphere that the NRM, in striving to be very modern, just doesn't have.

 

The answer, of course, is for me to have my days out at Loughborough or the KWVR rather than York and that is exactly what I do. My last couple of visits to York left me with none of the pleasure that the other places give me so I have pretty much stayed away since.

[Dava]

Naturally I encourage visits to the GCR, it is fortunate in retaining the engineering skills and the need to use them to maintain a large steam fleet, including 3 NRM locos being returned to working order. Lines like the GCR, KWVR, NYMR & SVR can work very well as linear museums with each station authentic but different and distinctive line side features.

 

The NRM is increasingly a repository of static exhibits with interpretive, commercial and eating places. When preserved lines have museums, like the Scottish Railway Museum at Bo’ness, they can be more focused than the ‘official’ museums such as Glasgow’s Riverside and the NRM.

 

Dava

[phil-b259]

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

A bit like Liverpool Museum.

 

Most of the interesting exhibits aren't even on display and probably never will be again.

 

Things such as Cecil Raikes - Mersey Railway 0-6-4T

The Liverpool & Manchester replica coaches

MD&HB No1 Avonside 0-6-0ST Which should be displayed below the LOR Electric Car

The old Fire Engine that used to be popular with kids and was even used during the Blitz.

The old lorries they used to have on display

Even the Mersey Tunnel Scrubber!

 

https://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/collections/land-transport?page=1?cas__type=all

 

All of them significant in the history of Liverpool. Yet missing from the new monolithic carbuncle of a museum that was quite high on the reasons that Liverpool lost World Heritage Status the other week. It's a total eyesore.

 

If you want to know why museums are skint. It's the constant wasting of taxpayers money on schemes and ideas. They are probably better funded than they've ever been through Lottery money. They just waste it on nonsense.

 

 

 

Jason

 

Please note that as a result of 1980s political issues where there was a very real threat to sell off the collection by local Labour councillors, the museums in Liverpool were bought under direct control of the Westminster Government.

 

Therefore National Museums is a non-departmental public body sponsored by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport - and this means that the museum bosses become duty bound to follow 'best practice' as specified by the DCMS / Whitehall - or be replaced by people who will!

 

This is compounded by the fact that entry is free (a requirement of all DCMS supported organisations) so there is no finical wiggle room to fund 'extras' (profits are used as an excuse for the DCMS to cut the grant further as the aim of the department is for museums to try be self supporting (through sponsorship and retail) without charging admission.

 

 

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

 

I do visit preserved railways far more than I visit the NRM. I haven't been to Beamish for many years and I have never been to Tanfield because they are probably just too far for a day out in terms of driving at both ends of what would have to be a very long day.

 

Loughborough and the KWVR are probably the two nearest to me and I have spent many happy days at both.

 

A couple of hours in the shed at Loughborough or in the Vintage Carriage Trust shed at Ingrow makes me come over all contented and happy! Being able to walk along a row of ancient carriages and to see some under restoration at the workshop end, or to walk down a line of locos undergoing minor or major work just ticks all the boxes for me.

 

I just wish the NRM was more like those sorts of places. Neither of the places I have mentioned is a genuine old railway building in its natural place but they both just feel like I have stepped back into a workshop or shed from the past. They have created an atmosphere that the NRM, in striving to be very modern, just doesn't have.

 

The answer, of course, is for me to have my days out at Loughborough or the KWVR rather than York and that is exactly what I do. My last couple of visits to York left me with none of the pleasure that the other places give me so I have pretty much stayed away since.

 

While it might be enjoyable I bet a lot of kids and their parents would find such displays 'boring'

 

Please remember we live in an age of 'instant gratification' - thanks to the internet and smartphones content can be delivered to you immediately for your enjoyment.

 

The requirement these days is 'interactivity' - and someone explaining what they are doing doesn't count!

 

Interactivity is where the visitor themselves presses buttons, pulls levers and makes stuff happen - the interactive signal box and Driving simulator at Swindon are  very popular precisely for that reason.

 

The key is to try and build some learning into that 'playing' - which is why the Science museum developed their Launchpad centre over 35 years ago and we have a souped up version called the Wonderlab (which you have to pay to enter) coming to York

[009 micro modeller]

6 hours ago, t-b-g said:

My view is that the NRM is moving away from that aim and is reducing its loco and engineering content (one stage being the removal of the workshop) and replacing it with the social history side of things and that is not what I personally want to see.

 

4 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

It's all very well saying we must "keep the old skills alive" but many of these have been superseded by more modern methods.

 

I get the impression that they aren’t so much replacing it with social history, as replacing it with STEM education stuff, which fits in with the aims of the Science Museum Group as a whole but, as others have suggested (including the quotation from Phil above), appears increasingly distant from the historical engineering represented by most of the NRM’s collection. On a similar note, from talking to some people involved there I think the NRM are quite keen on the idea of representing more recent railway history as well. This is something they probably should be doing, given the inherent difficulties of, for instance, EMU and electric loco preservation elsewhere (whereas the railway preservation movement in general has preserved far more steam locos than could ever have been imagined in the 1950s, when it was thought by some that only the locos that got into the National Collection would survive).

 

In a heritage environment there is arguably a place for preserving and demonstrating old skills and techniques for their own sake and because they are of historical interest, but it might be a bit different from the NRM workshop, which as far as I can tell is mainly there to overhaul NRM locos for further use, rather than to demonstrate traditional railway engineering techniques. I was reading an article the other day about someone who is a metalworker at the Black Country Living Museum. It’s a section of a larger article by the Museums Association about re-enactment at different heritage sites, and that’s the point; he is a re-enactor and has mainly learnt these skills in order to demonstrate them in a heritage environment.

Edited August 8, 2021 by 009 micro modeller

[I.C.L. 11]

As a very small and impressionable boy I first visited the NRM around the time the current workshop facility and viewing balcony opened and I was lucky enough to visit regularly in the following years. I always found the bright and well-equipped workshop totally awe-inspiring. Standing on the nearby mainline viewing balcony as a youngster I was quickly bored waiting for a train to appear but the workshop was always full of interesting things to look at even though there never seemed to be anybody working during our visits. Based on this I'll be very sad to see it swept away and it seems very short sighted to me that the wonderlab, appealing as it sounds to the wider audience, couldn't be housed elsewhere on the site, in a new building if necessary.

 

Watching overhauls and maintenance isn't everyone's cup of tea and the general public might think more along the lines of "if I wanted to see a workshop I would take the car in for a service". Many recent workshop developments at heritage railways have viewing balconies though, Mid Hants boiler shop and new workshop under construction at Bo'ness are two examples that spring to mind, so there must be some public interest and visitor education opportunities.

 

The full Heritage Railway article mentions that the wheel drop and gantry crane are staying (as static exhibits) but this is surely only because they would be too difficult to remove. The artists impression of wonderlab shows the crane still in place railwaymuseum.org.uk/2025 Whilst there is a cost in keeping these assets operational with certification etc it seems so wasteful to effectively abandon them as they'll add little to the wonderlab narrative.

 

The museum has a policy of conserving their vehicles rather than overhauling or operating them at all (with very few exceptions) and I fully support this. With the objective of being a largely static museum rather than a TOC the workshop could be seen as a waste of space but, personally, I think it's shameful that it can't be retained in the current form with just a refreshed narrative on the viewing balcony. It provides somewhere to carry out conservation work (as it actually will be doing in the short term) as well as potential income through hiring the facility to other loco owners as with 60007 recently and others in the past. In an ideal world it could also attract funding as a training facility.

Edited August 8, 2021 by I.C.L. 11
spelling

[Happy Hippo]

5 hours ago, t-b-g said:

One of the most enjoyable museums I have visited was the complex at Blists Hill. It has many workshops and cottage industry settings where you can watch how things used to be done in past times.

That's the place responsible for the severe delapidation of the unique ex LNWR 0-8-0 No 49395 which was in their care for some time.  The curator in charge at the time went on to head up the NRM!

 

The loco had been withdrawn some 26 years earlier, but had always been stored under cover.  Displayed outside at Blist's Hill quickly turned it into a hulk more reminiscent of a Barry wreck.

 

They currently have a line of wooden framed open wagons outside the 'goods shed' at Blist's Hill.

 

All happily rotting away, and as far as I am aware with no plans for any work to prevent their condition from worsening let alone restoring them.

 

If ever there was a place for some gaily painted PO wagons the this 'Victorian village' would be the ideal place.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

On 06/08/2021 at 19:13, phil-b259 said:

 

I believe that 'Wonderlab' is similar in concept - it exists to engage kids in science and STEM*** subjects thus tying in with school topics and hopefully sowing the seed that will make said kids want to peruse a career in science / engineering later on.

I’m afraid to say that those it’s made for will almost certainly have no interest in it. I’m currently still in high school, and am young enough to remember most of the STEM exhibits we were taken to at various museums back in grade school. They almost never awakened any excitement. This may be because they were invariably followed by a packet of work form the teacher, or just were boring to a child of 8-9. Now seeing say a wheel lathe in action might be a bit more inspiring to someone that young.

 

That grain silo thing looks interesting though.

[phil-b259]

8 hours ago, t-b-g said:

….(one stage being the removal of the workshop) and replacing it with the social history side of things and that is not what I personally want to see.

That IS NOT WHAT IS HAPPENING! (apparently)

 

The engineering workshop is, as I understand it, being replaced with an interactive science centre for kids called ‘Wonderlab’ which has not only proved a massive hit with the public at the Science Museum in London but charges for entry so could bring a real boost to the York finances (assuming it doesn’t get siphoned off by the parent group or an excuse by the DCMS to cut / freeze funding further).

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, I.C.L. 11 said:

 

The museum has a policy of conserving their vehicles rather than overhauling or operating them at all (with very few exceptions) and I fully support this. With the objective of being a largely static museum rather than a TOC the workshop could be seen as a waste of space but, personally, I think it's shameful that it can't be retained in the current form with just a refreshed narrative on the viewing balcony. It provides somewhere to carry out conservation work (as it actually will be doing in the short term) as well as potential income through hiring the facility to other loco owners as with 60007 recently and others in the past. In an ideal world it could also attract funding as a training facility.

 

Conserving something is not the same as 'restoring' or 'overhauling' it. Conservation is generally about maintaining the stus quo and stopping things getting worse

 

The HAP at Shildon is a good example of this because although they have done a fine job, the work was entirely cosmetic (rust / corroded body parts repaired / replaced and a fresh coat of paint) - the mechanics weren't touched. Now yes you could show such work being undertaken to visitors - but its hardly particularly 'railway' is it? Car workshops across the country do the same thing on a daily basis to damaged motor vehicles.

 

You also need to remember that even when it comes to restoration what makes the loco works at Bridgnorth or Sheffield Park, Stafford Barn, etc viable is the volume of work they have on the go and thus justifying the employment of skilled staff. If the RM was running a large fleet of engines then there would undoubtedly be lots of work to keep the York facility fully utilised - but the overhaul of one loco from time to time is simply not enough to justify employing skilled workshop staff (or indeed taking on Trainees). Yes in theory the RM could be more aggressive in trying to capture work - but then you run into problems of space the York workshop is quite small relatively speaking - and when they tried to do a complete 'in house restoration of 4472 it all went horribly wrong!

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

I’m afraid to say that those it’s made for will almost certainly have no interest in it. I’m currently still in high school, and am young enough to remember most of the STEM exhibits we were taken to at various museums back in grade school. They almost never awakened any excitement. This may be because they were invariably followed by a packet of work form the teacher, or just were boring to a child of 8-9. Now seeing say a wheel lathe in action might be a bit more inspiring to someone that young.

 

That grain silo thing looks interesting though.

 

Well given the London Wonderlab seems very popular and the 'Launchpad' facility is still going a good 35 years after the thing was launched, there are an awful lot of kids (and parents) who take a different view.

 

As for the Grain Silo Pit (I got the name wrong)....

 

https://helenthehare.org.uk/2020/09/13/the-grain-pit/

https://science-projects.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/ch2.pdf

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

3 hours ago, I.C.L. 11 said:

 Based on this I'll be very sad to see it swept away and it seems very short sighted to me that the wonderlab, appealing as it sounds to the wider audience, couldn't be housed elsewhere on the site, in a new building if necessary.

 

 

In theory, yes, the Wonderlab could be housed in a new building - but that costs money.

 

Please remember the RM is part of the Science Museum Group and that receives most of its funding directly from the Governments DCMS department.

 

As has been pointed out the DCMS has an agenda to spend the minimum it has too - hence the push by museums it bankrolls to add more retail opportunities as it allows the DCMS to "reduce the burden on the taxpayer" while still providing free access to the bulk of their sites. An workshop facility is not seen as a sensible investment - like most things these days view of the Government is that its better value if such things are outsourced and 'the power of the free market' can be harnessed to do things at a lower cost leaving the organisation to concentrate on its core business.

 

The Government is also heavily pushing the STEM agenda* and museums funded by the DCMS are expected to embrace it.

 

Put it this way, if you are the Science Museum Group and you have the choice of installing a popular new children's activity centre which you can charge entry to or keep an underutilised workshop facility (with no way of being able to afford to increase the specialist staff required to make proper use of it) which would you chose?

 

In some ways part of the problem is the existence of the large Heritage Railway sector in the first place. If (as was envisaged in the 1960s)  the Science Museum Group was the only place you could see a large collection of steam locos then there would be much more pressure to restore and keep them running which in turn would require a sizable workshop facility. 

 

 

* Heritage Railways haven't let this go unnoticed - the Bluebell got a grant to repair its running shed precisely because the scheme also included providing disabled access to loco footplates and a host of interactive exhibits plus the employment of a STEM educational coordinator. The project drew much criticism from enthusiasts (and quite a few staff) because they liked the gloomy old setup with its rows of locos with little or no info about them precisely because of its likeness to a 1950s steam shed. However the feedback from parents and kids is they much prefer then  new setup including 'robo-Stepney'....

Edited August 8, 2021 by phil-b259

[Bucoops]

"I believe the children are our future" - that would make a good line for a song

 

What one person may find boring, another will find fascinating. Museums have to have variety, especially for the education part of their remit - and to get the younger generation interested in carrying on what the current generation are doing takes a lot of thought and effort. My daughter likes riding on trains, she's not hugely interested in how they work, but every now and then something will grab her attention for a little while.

 

The NYMR has a great little exhibition showing how various parts of trains work, and more importantly, you are allowed to touch and try them -

 

 

The IOWSR has a driving simulator - with all important clothes to put on when doing it to make you feel like you belong.

 

 

The NRM as others have said have to follow national guidelines. It's nothing new - look at Ellerman Lines - which also really got her attention as she could see how it was put together

 

 

Additionally, from what I recall this was just sitting on the route through, not part of a "wonderlab" type of thing. She sat down and just got on with it, no encouragement needed.

 

 

Yet other things aimed at education she walked straight past, not interest whatsoever. Plan the variety of your museum well and you should hopefully be able to engage people from all ages and walks of life.

[t-b-g]

I don't have a problem if the NRM wants to become an educational place for youngsters. Especially if it has become a requirement to maximise funding,

 

As long as they don't expect me to have any interest or enthusiasm about coming along to enjoy playing and learning in a "wonderlab".

 

I will just accept that I am not their target audience any more.

 

It isn't difficult for me to find places more to my liking to visit for a day out so I won't miss it.