NRM loco workshop to close

[I.C.L. 11]

11 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Conserving something is not the same as 'restoring' or 'overhauling' it. Conservation is generally about maintaining the stus quo and stopping things getting worse

I used the word conservation in an extremely broad sense and should have been more clear. What I really meant was any work required to keep a vehicle in suitable state for museum display and that a dedicated space for this is useful, even if the demand will be infrequent. The museum have stated that the workshop is needed to carry out asbestos remediation on the collection in the short term and this is obviously best done away from active public areas.

 

Of course there are logistical issues around the museum site when rail vehicles require moving from the Station Hall/South Yard to the Great Hall/Works they have to either travel by road or access the national network and Siemens depot. With that in mind it's probably often easier to work on them in situ.

 

The museum have stated their intention to retain some form of mainline steam loco servicing and light maintenance facility but we are yet to see what form this will take.

 

When not required any workshop space can be used as secure storage for rail vehicles, as the current workshop has often been, wonderlab is taking rail accessible covered storage space away from rail vehicles. I'm not joining in on the cries elsewhere of "NRM left xyz outside to rot", I'm grateful for the level of restoration and conservation they have achieved, but this does seem short sighted even if the new shed at Locomotion will increase covered space. The collection is only going to grow over time, or at least I hope it does, as vehicles are designated for preservation and offered to the national collection.

 

11 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

and when they tried to do a complete 'in house restoration of 4472 it all went horribly wrong!

Several successful overhauls have been carried out in the NRM workshops though, some by a now dissolved NRM team. The Meanley report on 4472 was critical of planning, project management and lack of suitable skill sets (with reference to staff retirement and absence) but I don't think the failure of the project was due to a lack of facilities in the workshop itself.

 

9 hours ago, Bucoops said:

Additionally, from what I recall this was just sitting on the route through, not part of a "wonderlab" type of thing. She sat down and just got on with it, no encouragement needed.

That build a loco interactive is on the workshop viewing balcony iirc. I think a fair portion of visitors will gravitate towards ANY interactive display (even if every visitor doesn't stop at every one), it's very much a "build it and they will come", the challenge is to keep it reliable, educational and in keeping with the museum objects around it. The small goods shed in the South Yard where Boxhill lives used to be a popular interactive zone with many hands-on devices demonstrating railway wheel principle, continuous braking, adhesion issues from leaf fall, braking distance to name a few plus a full size lever frame signalling display. It is now "Learning Platform" and I think all those wonderful interactives are long gone in favour of an empty lecture and packed lunch room for school groups.

 

I do look forward to seeing the museum develop over the next few pivotal years and from an enthusiasts point of view it will be interesting to see how key dates such Flying Scotsman's 100th in 2023 and S&DR 200th in 2025 are marked. In my own mind though the memories of the museum in the very early 2000s with "The Story of the Train" narrative and the recently opened workshop will be hard to beat.

Edited August 8, 2021 by I.C.L. 11
Slight rethink after reading Baucoops post properly.

[phil-b259]

59 minutes ago, I.C.L. 11 said:

 

Several successful overhauls have been carried out in the NRM workshops though, some by a now dissolved NRM team. The Meanley report on 4472 was critical of planning, project management and lack of suitable skill sets (with reference to staff retirement and absence) but I don't think the failure of the project was due to a lack of facilities in the workshop itself.

 

(I have highlighted the significant bits of your post)

 

The success of pretty much ANY venture is heavily dependent of having people with the right skills in the right places. From Restaurants to classrooms to building Jet Engines at Rolls Royce human resources are just as important as material ones. Even an automated assembly line in a car plant has a human element involved somewhere in the production process - not least in terms of designing the car the assembly line is to build.

 

Therefore if, as an organisation the RM is having its budget frozen year after year by the DCMS then something has to give and recruitment freezes / getting rid of staff is one of the easiest ways of doing this as impacts* on the front line operatisation don't usually manifest themselves for several years.

 

In such an environment I don't think the RM have much of a choice. The 'Wonderlab' being something which they can charge an entry fee for is basically a way of plugging a hole in the finances while simultaneously ticking all the STEM boxes the Government are pushing.

 

 

* The same is happening in the rail industry as the DfT imposes recruitment and pay freezes in a bid to hold down costs in the wake of Covid even though such practices have been cited by the RAIB as part of the reason a Chiltern Railways train almost had a head on smash with an Underground Train at Chalfont & Latimer last year as Chiltern couldn't recruit / hold onto driver mangers at Marylebone drivers depot.

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by phil-b259

[Michael Hodgson]

49 minutes ago, I.C.L. 11 said:

The collection is only going to grow over time, or at least I hope it does, as vehicles are designated for preservation and offered to the national collection.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.  It costs a lot to conserve locos, never mind restore them.  Display space costs money.  Covered storage space may be cheaper but there's little merit is just storing rolling stock unless it can be viewed from time to time.  Whilst many places have had "stuffed engines" on a plinth, they rot and in time have to be restored at great cost or scrapped.  And as time passes, there will be pressure to add more modern motive power and dispose of some of the steamers.  Have they got any first generation DMUs or an HST?  Whilst I don't see any particular merit in preserving say a whole Azuma or Pendolino when those come to the end of their useful lives, I can see the arguments in favour.  That would displace quite a few locos.

 

All museums dispose of items in their collection because there is a limit to what they have room for and interest in some items does decline over time.  That's apart from financial pressures which wax and wane with political sentiments and the general state of the economy.  Many Victorian municipal museums have had to close or get rid of a lot of items which were bequeathed to them. 

 

Will the NRM keep all of the railway-owned road vehicles like delivery carts and mechanical horses ?  They've never had any full-size Sealink ferries, just the odd model or advertising poster! 

[I.C.L. 11]

9 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Have they got any first generation DMUs or an HST?

They have owned a class 108 for decades which spent a few years on the East Lancs Rly before being recalled to York "for display" a few years ago. I think it is currently stored in the green tent "depot" area (as it has been for virtually all the time it has been at the museum). More recently they acquired a 101 which is currently at North Norfolk Railway. Surely a first gen DMU, whilst hardly unique, merits better display at York or Shildon purely because it's a style of train so many people will recognise and remember. On the HST side of things they have two production power cars and a buffet trailer in addition to 41001.

 

Rocket and royal coaches are all very interesting but there is also interest in seeing how our grandparents travelled, parents travelled to school etc. and obviously that will change with time but it would be a shame if it meant a continuous loss of older vehicles from the collection. Deaccessioning items to more appropriate homes may always be necessary but I hope it can be kept to a minimum.

 

44 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Many Victorian municipal museums have had to close or get rid of a lot of items which were bequeathed to them. 

The Railway Museum in common with all others is certainly having to be increasingly selective in it's collecting, even for small objects offered by members of the public.

[Reorte]

On 07/08/2021 at 20:09, Phil Parker said:

 

This is an important point. It's all very well saying we must "keep the old skills alive" but many of these have been superseded by more modern methods. A good example is the cylinder block for the new build Patriot. The master is 3D printed rather than created using traditional methods in wood. Why? It's cheaper if you are only building a single loco. Maybe for a long production run, the reusable wood version scores over the modern version, but this isn't a long run. A lot of those old methods were also the latest thing in their day.

Which is all well and good for building a loco, but if we're talking about a museum then arguably one point of it is to keep those skills alive. Now that might not be by actually practising them but I'd argue that museums should be at the forefront of documenting them so we don't end up in the future with historians arguing how on earth a particular job was done. We've probably got sufficient means (but it'll still take an effort) to get in most of the details that a written account couldn't. Ideally there should be enough that people in the future could (theoretically) recreate a skill that no-one has had in living memory; they may not do a good job without experience, and conditions may well be that trying wouldn't even be permitted, but as long as it could theoretically done then the goal has been fulfilled.

[adb968008]

On 09/08/2021 at 13:52, Reorte said:

Which is all well and good for building a loco, but if we're talking about a museum then arguably one point of it is to keep those skills alive. Now that might not be by actually practising them but I'd argue that museums should be at the forefront of documenting them so we don't end up in the future with historians arguing how on earth a particular job was done. We've probably got sufficient means (but it'll still take an effort) to get in most of the details that a written account couldn't. Ideally there should be enough that people in the future could (theoretically) recreate a skill that no-one has had in living memory; they may not do a good job without experience, and conditions may well be that trying wouldn't even be permitted, but as long as it could theoretically done then the goal has been fulfilled.

How many people left around with compounding skills ?

 

MR 1000 hasnt run in 4 decades, and 60 years since BR retired them, putting an experienced crew at least 80 years old, and an overhaul crew at retirement age… all pre-internet, making documenting the skills more challenging, without video/graphic aids, and reliant an someone already experienced with similar skills (S&D 7f group maybe?) to try and translate them.

 

I know the intention was 60007 would be the last loco to emerge overhauled from York, but as thats not going to hapoen, What was the last loco outshopped overhauled from York ?.. 60103 was from Rileys, would it be 4771 ?

4771 was supposed to be an overhaul candidate itself in the 2019 plan, but see its moving to Danum Gallery for 3 years.

Edited August 21, 2021 by adb968008

[AndyH]

Hello, I couldn’t see this being covered as part of the discussion, does anyone know what will happen to the equipment and machinery? Auction? Allocation to relevant existing facilities? Support of projects such as that proposed for St. Blazey (though that incorporating CNC training)?

I feel that is the important part if you want to keep skills alive.

Andy

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, AndyH said:

Hello, I couldn’t see this being covered as part of the discussion, does anyone know what will happen to the equipment and machinery? Auction? Allocation to relevant existing facilities? Support of projects such as that proposed for St. Blazey (though that incorporating CNC training)?

I feel that is the important part if you want to keep skills alive.

Andy

 

Some of the equipment too difficult or expensive to remove is being left in place / covered up, the wheeldrop being one such example I understand.

 

The more 'portable' items (in the loosest sense of the word) of kit will either be put into store or offered for sale to the Heritage Railway sector so they can augment their workshop equipment.

[AndyH]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Some of the equipment too difficult or expensive to remove is being left in place / covered up, the wheeldrop being one such example I understand.

 

The more 'portable' items (in the loosest sense of the word) of kit will either be put into store or offered for sale to the Heritage Railway sector so they can augment their workshop equipment.

Thanks Phil, good to know.