The slow death of renumbering/repainting?

[newbryford]

Reading the various threads on new release models and promised variants, there seems to be an increasingly long wishlist of "I hope they produce XXYYY", where XXYYY is the number that they want in the livery that they want

 

Very little of "I hope they produce a Class XX with the correct details [*] so I can repaint/renumber it to XXYYY".

 

Am I the only one thinking this?

 

[*] And let's not forget adding/altering details.

 

 

[AY Mod]

4 minutes ago, newbryford said:

Am I the only one thinking this?

 

Nope.

 

Still, some enterprises offering renumbers and reliveries are doing very well.

[BokStein]

Clearly, there are modellers and "modellers"!

[toboldlygo]

Always busy here  

[w124bob]

Being an inveterate renumberer I rarely quibble over a factory choice even on a £300+ SLW class24. Looking at my current OO diesel fleet only 3(40 plus) carry their as purchased ID, D5099, D365 and D186 all fitted my time frame and region choice. My recent moan about the new Bachmann class 47 had more to do with yet another Spanner boiler, not the number choice. Even paying a premium for a TMC Heljan 25102 won't stop it being renumbered(it was the only way to get a later exhaust on a two tone green loco). It's easy to do a renumber, in most cases produces a loco that won't appear duplicated on my club layout and is essential when running multiples of the same class. I also enjoy the research, although this leads to mulitiples of the same class!

[CloggyDog]

I think it's a consequence of the proportionally higher prices of rtr locos, Mick.

 

Whereas you and I cut our teeth on £20 Lima models, where the risk of cocking it up wasn't a disaster financially (and there was an abundant supply of cheap tat to practice on!) folk are generally quite risk-averse, so will be very cautious over even slightly modifying a multi-hundred pound loco. That as much as anything is why fewer and fewer of us are into renumbers, repaints and more involved detailing. 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by CloggyDog

[MarkSG]

Part of the problem, of course, is that the paint job on RTR models is now so good that renumbering and repainting is almost always a downgrade in quality unless you're really good at it. Plus, of course, it's now common to see a new model released in lots of different liveries either right from the start or sequentially over a period of a few years, so there's a lot less of a need to renumber and repaint. Which, in turn, means that fewer people have the motivation to acquire the skills necessary to do it well.

[melmerby]

12 minutes ago, BokStein said:

Clearly, there are modellers and "modellers"!

Typical putdown of those that would rather build & operate than spend time renumbering.

[MarkSG]

Just now, melmerby said:

Typical putdown of those that would rather build & operate than spend time renumbering.

 

I suspect that the comment you are replying to was somewhat tongue in cheek.

[newbryford]

7 minutes ago, CloggyDog said:

I think it's a consequence of the proportionally higher prices of rtr locos, Mick.

 

Whereas you and I cut our teeth on £20 Lima models, where the risk of cocking it up wasn't a disaster financially (and there was an abundant supply of cheap tat to practice on!) folk are generally quite risk-averse, so will be very cautious over even slightly modifying a multi-hundred pound loco. That as much as anything is why fewer and fewer of us are into renumbers, repaints and more involved detailing. 

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

Part of the problem, of course, is that the paint job on RTR models is now so good that renumbering and repainting is almost always a downgrade in quality unless you're really good at it. Plus, of course, it's now common to see a new model released in lots of different liveries either right from the start or sequentially over a period of a few years, so there's a lot less of a need to renumber and repaint. Which, in turn, means that fewer people have the motivation to acquire the skills necessary to do it well.

 

Picking out the bold bits:

 

I get that the pricing of models today will put the fear into many not wanting to damage them, but - to me - there seems to be an increasing reluctance to even attempt to acquire the skills.

 

Yes - as Alan says, models were relatively cheaper, but whenever I do a demo at an exhibition I'm often at pains to tell people to go the second hand stalls and dig through the baskets of old/battered models to find stuff to practice on.

 

As for risk averse - is it more a fear of failure?

 

 

[newbryford]

25 minutes ago, BokStein said:

Clearly, there are modellers and "modellers"!

 

12 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Typical putdown of those that would rather build & operate than spend time renumbering.

 

Please - let's not get the thread locked on page 1.

[PaulCheffus]

1 minute ago, newbryford said:

As for risk averse - is it more a fear of failure?

Hi

 

I think you may have hit the nail on the head. 

 

I often see the comments I don’t have the skill to do xyz but then the person making the comment won’t spend any time gaining said skill. I’ve been building models for the last fifty years and I am still learning new skills / ways of doing things.

 

I also think people expect quick results and if I’ve learnt anything it’s that things take time. Some of my projects have taken ten years to come to fruition but for me that’s part of the enjoyment.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[roundhouse]

My other half has pre ordered a sound fitted Accurscale class 37 on the proviso that I renumber it to one that she has seen.

 

So no risk to my spending but more likely to my well being if I make a mess of it for her

[ba14eagle]

Perhaps it would be better if all locos came unnumbered, as Heljan used to. Some might say it would give the manufacturers a bit more time to get the liveries spot on.

[The Johnster]

A well trodden path. 

 

There are modellers and modellers, but they are all in my view modellers.  Ok, let's try to define modellers.  In my view, and there are plenty of others available some of which might be a lot more accurate and generally better than mine, a railway modeller is someone who engages in one or more of the following activities:-

 

.He/she seeks to recreate to scale in model form the locos and stock, buildings and infrastructure, scenery and surroundings of a real railway (even if it's an imaginary real railway) as realistically and plausibly as his/her ability will allow.

 

.He/she seeks to operate the said models as realistically and plausibly as his/her ability will allow.

 

.He/she seeks to develop skills in construction of such models, as realistically etc.

 

So, in my mind, modellers range from those who open boxes and run on setrack (so long as they are attempting to do it as realistically etc.) to those who painstakingly scratchbuild items to dead scale, and everybody in between.  It is, IMHO, as much to do with the attitude you have to the modelling as it is to the skill and success of achieving whatever the aim was. 

 

If you are a box opening modeller, you are still a modeller from where I'm sitting, unless you are doing it as a collector, which is something else and I'm not criticising you for that, or you are running trains as a train set, without any concern for realism in appearance, operation, period, and so on.  Your money is as good as mine (and mostly you will have more of it), and if you want a particular item in a particular livery and number made for you by the manufacturers, I have no problem with this, and you may get lucky!

 

It wouldn't do for me, but of course I'm not everybody (some mornings I'm not sure I'm anybody).  I require my locos, and as far as possible my stock, to represent those allox to a specific shed at a specific period, and hence frequently have to renumber and sometimes have to relivery.  It is made easier by my choice of prototype and period, BR(W) steam, as the bulk of my locos can be renumbered with brass plates, but I have to work a bit harder with some of my coaches; a good few are kit built and have to be painted and numbered by yours truly.  I am lucky in that over many years I have built a skillset folio that includes being able to tackle such jobs and make reasonable successes of them, but I do not consider myself a 'better' modeller than those without such skillsets.  I can look back over many decades of modelling to lower standards than I now manage; we all had to learn somewhere and we all made mistakes!  I once had a '42xx' that consisted of an Airfix 61xx kit with plasticard downward extended tanks sitting on top of a HD Stanier 8F chassis; I have no moral high ground to hold here!

 

I regard modellers who are able to produce work to a better standard than me as inspirational and aspire to such glories, but in the real world I'm nearly 70 and I'm not going to get much better than I am now, so I try to work within my limitations.  Current RTR/RTP is way better than I can build or paint, but no item on my layout is exactly in the same condition as it first came out of the box in; at the least, a light weathering wash to take the new off is applied. 

Edited August 5, 2021 by The Johnster

[LBRJ]

I think the whole game has changed enormously in the last, say, thirty years.

 

Back in the day  I would happily chop bits off/add bit to any number of Lima models because I was improving them - I am not all that sure my attentions given to state of the art models would often be an improvement.

 

There is also the changes in ones circumstances.

When I worked on the railway I gained much more of an interest in "the railway" not just the trains that ran on it.  Bachmann et al do a far better job now of making the trains than I ever could, but not so much the setting..

Also I spend most of my time now in "making things" and I dont really want to spend my free time also making things; I would rather now play trains as  I used to do full size

 

 

[newbryford]

4 minutes ago, ba14eagle said:

Perhaps it would be better if all locos came unnumbered, as Heljan used to. Some might say it would give the manufacturers a bit more time to get the liveries spot on.

 

Requests for production of un-numbered locos is a regular repeat topic.

 

Un-numbered Heljan 47s seemed to be the last to remain on shop shelves.

So it would appear to not be a popular venture.

[PMP]

27 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

 

Picking out the bold bits:

- there seems to be an increasing reluctance to even attempt to acquire the skills.

 

That’s been my perception for a while, particularly if talking to visitors at exhibitions. It’s certainly not for lack of encouragement from magazines and on line sources, which regularly cover the subject in varying complexity. 
 

Don’t know what the answer is, but detailers and renumberers will be gainfully employed for a while yet.

Edited August 5, 2021 by PMP

[TheSignalEngineer]

We live in a culture of 'Instant Gratification' - I want it all and I want it now. I've been building kits since the Airfix Mineral Wagon was introduced. Not much good at painting them to start off with but over the years I improved. When I restarted the new quality of Bachmann and Hornby were coming on line. At first I tried to get appropriate numbers to what I was modelling but it wasn't easy so when I wanted a Bescot allocated 8F in work-worn condition I bought a S/H Hornby loco drive one and set to work. It was cheap and a poor runner but I decided that could be fixed and it was without any expenditure. I painted out the number, put on a new one and scruffed it up by dry brushing and powders. It still regularly appears on the layout.

I did similar jobs with a damaged WD, which was repaired and gained a 247 fire iron rack. Since then I have not bothered in waiting to see if the manufacturers bring out the one I want, I just look for a bargain of the right type and set to work like I did to produce a steam brake only Jinty.

 

[BokStein]

Sorry for stirring a potential hornets' nest!

 

50 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Typical putdown of those that would rather build & operate than spend time renumbering.

 

I consider myself a modeller, although I have impediments / inabilities to achieve some goals. As an example, I have an impaired shoulder which can cause arm oscillations so violent that, if I am trying to drink something from a cup, or soup from a spoon, most of it can end up on the table. Painting is not an option for me, especially numbering; however, the likes of Dapol often produce nu-numbered models and I am more than happy for someone very much more capable than I to adorn it appropriately.

 

Regarding the less fine detail of a model, I can happily build a layout on which to run the models (although my soldering is starting to suffer a little!)

 

37 minutes ago, newbryford said:

Please - let's not get the thread locked on page 1.

 

I hope that you, Mick, and the Mods see the above as a reason for not so doing!

Edited August 5, 2021 by BokStein

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 minute ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

We live in a culture of 'Instant Gratification' - I want it all and I want it now.

And I could have added and I will pay somebody to make sure I get it, although with some of the comments on here about the price of models I don't think that applies to a lot of railway modellers.

(Where's the tongue in cheek emoji when you need it?)

[rob D2]

I’ve renumbered pretty much all my locos. I’m currently half way through first full respray . I’m not really enjoying it - it’s time consuming , requires a lot of concentration and I’m not sure the outcome will be that great .

 

IF the manufacturers had made the 47 I wanted , I wouldn’t have bothered.

[JohnDMJ]

1 hour ago, newbryford said:

Reading the various threads on new release models and promised variants, there seems to be an increasingly long wishlist of "I hope they produce XXYYY", where XXYYY is the number that they want in the livery that they want

 

Very little of "I hope they produce a Class XX with the correct details [*] so I can repaint/renumber it to XXYYY".

 

Am I the only one thinking this?

 

[*] And let's not forget adding/altering details.

 

 

 

Kato's Class 800s illustrate this well! "Will they be doing xyz livery?" for example. Answer = NOT LIKELY!

 

What is not realised is that the UK is a very specialised market and insignificant in the global field. For example, only about 10% of Kato's Class 800s were distributed to the UK. One enterprising business has already produced vinyls to transform them to other liveries, however.

 

The vast majority of Kato's models have a Japanese connection; Class 800 - Hitachi; Swiss RhB, Eurostar, TGV - souvenirs of a trip to Europe.

 

In general, Kato's Japanese market accounts for about 80% of its production; one reason why their catalogue is only available in Japanese!

 

Sorry to harp on about Kato, but they are typical of the global industry of railway modelling.

 

With respect, Britain tends to be very insular ("Fog in the Channel, Europe cut off") and only model what can be seen. Consequently, we get the comments of the type above, "why can't they make loco xx yyy"? Would you spend £250,000.00 for a specific loco to justify making the tooling, manufacturing costs and finishing costs for ONE loco?

 

Let's try and get (yes, my experience tells me it's impossible!) some perspective here!

 

Compared to the global model railway market, the UK is just plankton in the ocean!

[Chris M]

I’m guilty as charged! Back in the day I happily repainted, detailed and renumbered Lima and Hornby locos. I always felt they looked better for my work. Nowadays I basically don’t because I can’t get as good a finish as the manufacturers. I have moved from 00 to N which of course doesn’t help. I have renumbered just a couple but I don’t enjoy it because yes, I am afraid of failure. Luckily the numbers on N gauge diesels are too small for me to read anyway so it doesn’t matter.

One thing I do still do though is lightly weather every single item of stock and add buffer beam and below details to one end of every loco. For me this is much more important than the number and is an area where RTR stock is still very weak. I’m always surprised by the number of excellent layouts in the magazines that run at least some stock straight out of the box. 

[newbryford]

33 minutes ago, Chris M said:

 

One thing I do still do though is lightly weather every single item of stock and add buffer beam and below details to one end of every loco. For me this is much more important than the number and is an area where RTR stock is still very weak. 

 

There's an easy answer to that - because it gets in the way of tension lock couplings.

Let's not go there with this thread.