LMS livery - Small vs Large lettering

[geoedlegg]

Most often you see LMS livery with large L M S written on the tender, but in the instance of a loco like 5025 as it was in the 90's and now as restored again, the lettering on the tender is smaller. What is the difference and what does it mean?

[mcowgill]

I no longer have my copy of Essery & Jenkinson to confirm but I believe it's a Vulcan Foundry thing.

 

The first Black 5's delivered were the batch built by Vulcan Foundry (5020-5069) including 5025 which makes it the oldest survivor.  They seem to have spaced the LMS on the tender much closer than normal for the pre-1936 livery, I'm not sure if all the batch were delivered with the same style but there are plenty of photos of them like that.   

 

Crewe outshopped 5000-5019 after VF had delivered 5020-69 in the same livery but with LMS more widely spaced as on the Royal Scots & Jubilees, here's 5000 preserved in that style which was the normal arrangement  (From Flickr, not my photo)

 

 

The photo of 5407 you showed for comparison has the lettering at the same spacing but this is the 1936 pattern block letters rather than the earlier serif style.

 

Martin

 

[LMS2968]

There were detail variations of livery even between different LMS works. The matter is further complicated as sometimes the insignia was applied with transfers, other times it was hand painted.

[LMS2968]

20 minutes ago, mcowgill said:

22 minutes ago, mcowgill said:

The first Black 5's delivered were the batch built by Vulcan Foundry (5020-5069) including 5025 which makes it the oldest survivor.  They seem to have spaced the LMS on the tender much closer than normal for the pre-1936 livery, I'm not sure if all the batch were delivered with the same style but there are plenty of photos of them like that.   

 

Photographs show that the entire Vulcan batch, 5020 to 5069, had the close LMS spacing.

 

[uax6]

Have got Jenks and Esserys Loco Liveries of the LMS off the shelf...

I quote:

'The most interesting aspect of the livery of this group of locos (5000 - 5224) is the fact that many of them had the 'LMS' very close together for no apparent reason and to no set pattern as far as can be judged. Measurement of pictures would put this spacing at some 30" between centres.'

There is s photo of 5020 with the same livery as 5025 at the top of the thread.

Recorded locos with the close spaced LMS in the table are: 5006, 5020, 5024, 5026, 5027, 5029, 5032, 5037, 5039, 5044, 5048, 5053, 5063, 5066, 5067, 5069, 5075, 5081, 5085, 5087, 5094, 5096, 5098, 5103-4, 5106, 5135-6.

 

Now having got the RCTS vol 1 of the Class 5's off the other shelf, they indicate that the closer spacing was 40" centres and were on the following locos:

5020-69 (VF), 5075-5106 (VF), 5107-11 (VF), 5125-37 (AW). VF being Vulcan Foundry, AW being Armstrong Whitworth. 

 

 

RCTS has 5006 at 60" centres, which is the only one that conflicts.

 

Andy G

 

[kevinlms]

13 hours ago, uax6 said:

Have got Jenks and Esserys Loco Liveries of the LMS off the shelf...

I quote:

'The most interesting aspect of the livery of this group of locos (5000 - 5224) is the fact that many of them had the 'LMS' very close together for no apparent reason and to no set pattern as far as can be judged. Measurement of pictures would put this spacing at some 30" between centres.'

There is s photo of 5020 with the same livery as 5025 at the top of the thread.

Recorded locos with the close spaced LMS in the table are: 5006, 5020, 5024, 5026, 5027, 5029, 5032, 5037, 5039, 5044, 5048, 5053, 5063, 5066, 5067, 5069, 5075, 5081, 5085, 5087, 5094, 5096, 5098, 5103-4, 5106, 5135-6.

 

Now having got the RCTS vol 1 of the Class 5's off the other shelf, they indicate that the closer spacing was 40" centres and were on the following locos:

5020-69 (VF), 5075-5106 (VF), 5107-11 (VF), 5125-37 (AW). VF being Vulcan Foundry, AW being Armstrong Whitworth. 

 

 

RCTS has 5006 at 60" centres, which is the only one that conflicts.

 

Andy G

 

It does need to be remembered that quite a few locos were repainted as soon as 1937.

Page 142 shows 5068 a Vulcan loco, which is now (1937) in livery B9 and has the standard letter spacing on the tender.

By 1938 some appeared in the 1936 style.

[LMS2968]

"RCTS has 5006 at 60" centres, which is the only one that conflicts."

5006 was one of the Crewe built batch, 5000-5019, so all should have had the 60" spacing.

[kevinlms]

13 hours ago, uax6 said:

the fact that many of them had the 'LMS' very close together for no apparent reason and to no set pattern as far as can be judged.

 

It needs to be remembered that that the LMS was not wedded to the 'one loco, one tender' practice. A loco coming out of workshops, could be attached to any suitable tender, not necessarily the one it went in with - especially true of Crewe. (hey, that rhymes!).

 

So perhaps that is why no set pattern? I can't say that I've seen a photo of a Black 5, with a red tender though.

[LMS2968]

2 hours ago, kevinlms said:

It needs to be remembered that that the LMS was not wedded to the 'one loco, one tender' practice. A loco coming out of workshops, could be attached to any suitable tender, not necessarily the one it went in with - especially true of Crewe. (hey, that rhymes!).

 

So perhaps that is why no set pattern? I can't say that I've seen a photo of a Black 5, with a red tender though.

It's generally hard to tell with B/W photos, so it might have happened. It certainly did with the Big Lizzies and there are several cases of red engine / black tender and vice versa towards the end of the war, 6231 was one.

 

Tender exchanges did occur during overhauls, but I can't recall seeing any mismatch of Black Five engines and tenders with the different lettering spacing. Bear in mind that they were sufficiently new not to receive a heavy repair until after the 1936 style was introduced.

[pH]

5 hours ago, kevinlms said:

 I can't say that I've seen a photo of a Black 5, with a red tender though.

I think there may have been an instance of this in the 1960s. (LMS2968 and I have talked about this in the past.) A ‘Steam Days’ article on Banbury included a picture of Banbury shed yard taken in May 1966, nearly two years after the last LMS pacific was withdrawn, which I think shows a loaded tender of LMS design, painted maroon. Unfortunately, it doesn’t show the engine to which it is attached,

 

I do know of one definite colour mismatch between a Stanier 5 and its tender. I saw 45090 in Polmadie shed in February 1963 with a lined green tender.

Edited August 7, 2021 by pH
Finger problems on engine number.

[kevinlms]

21 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

It's generally hard to tell with B/W photos, so it might have happened. It certainly did with the Big Lizzies and there are several cases of red engine / black tender and vice versa towards the end of the war, 6231 was one.

 

Tender exchanges did occur during overhauls, but I can't recall seeing any mismatch of Black Five engines and tenders with the different lettering spacing. Bear in mind that they were sufficiently new not to receive a heavy repair until after the 1936 style was introduced.

The Big Lizzies sort of makes sense, because there was only a small number of locos.