Stations with two signal boxes

[Brian Indge]

Before remodelling in the late 1950’s I am sure that Barking on the LTS line had large signal boxes at either end of the station.

[The Stationmaster]

Alas the impractical could surface with monotonous regularity from those who were really far too highly paid in relation to their ability or knowledge and definitely overpaid in relation to the idocy which spouted from their mouths.  The best (worst) example of this occurred at a large meeting to review the options for continuing with Regional Eurostar where a newly arrived 'commercial expert' sent in by the 'Maiden' organisation to inject 'new commercial innovations' listened intently to the discussion of various options, the problems and costs involved with some of them, the lack of business being identified with others, etc and so on.  This of course was in the late 1990s for those unfamiliar with the story of those trains.  Said 'commercial innovator' finally contributed to the debate with the proposal that far better commercial results would be achieved if the trains were run from Bristol to Paris instead of Manchester to Paris.  Some of us had considerable difficulty keeping a straight face and when I told him that it would not be possible he took some convincing that Eurostar trains could not physically run to Bristol unless they were hauled by a diesel loco he looked at me in disbelief.

 

As for infrastructure cost allocation my experience was that Inter City's reps at meetings were so sure of their position in the hierarchy that they thought everything they agreed to was for their benefit while it was actually loading costs onto them at a fearsome pace.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

5 hours ago, Brian Indge said:

Before remodelling in the late 1950’s I am sure that Barking on the LTS line had large signal boxes at either end of the station.

 

It did, also Upminster and Grays. 

[Rugd1022]

On 11/08/2021 at 08:06, Poor Old Bruce said:

Same applies for Leicester Midland and Derby Midland. I think Derby also had a box half way along the platforms controlling scissors crossovers between Platforms 1-2 and 3-4.

 

This is where we start getting into the realms of Permissive Working for passenger trains in large stations but I think I will leave that for others, who know more about the subject than I do, to explain

 

Rugby Midland had a similar arrangement, with 'boxes controlling crossovers mid way along platforms 1 and 2....

 

 

 

(Edit - missing from the diagram above is Lilbourne SB, between Clifton Mill and Yelvertoft)

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by Rugd1022

[cb900f]

..

 

 

Edited August 21, 2021 by cb900f
Misinformation

[5BarVT]

3 hours ago, cb900f said:

Sheffield Midland also had 3 boxes, the middle box was situated on the platform between plat 2 and plat 5 .

 

Pete

Actually 5 as I recall: North, South 1 & 2, A (under the footbridge on platforms 2/5 as you say) and B on platforms 6/8.

Paul.

[KingEdwardII]

On 16/08/2021 at 13:52, The Stationmaster said:

he took some convincing that Eurostar trains could not physically run to Bristol unless they were hauled by a diesel loco he looked at me in disbelief.

Actually, I still find it astounding that even today this is still the case. There are parts of Britain still stuck resolutely in the Victorian era - the lack of investment to electrify all the main lines should be a source of shame to us all.

 

And all the while the government spouts on about "carbon neutral" and "zero emissions" - until they have to put their hands in their own pockets to pay for it.

 

I'll go off and calm down now....

 

Yours,  Mike.

[Compound2632]

On 08/08/2021 at 09:07, Michael Hodgson said:

Once motor points became available, the requirement to have two boxes could be lifted.  You would reduce to one box, saving on wages, motorize any points too far away to work by rodding, and motorise signals or perhaps replace with colour lights where the wire run would have it it too difficult a pull.  Such rationalisation was common during the BR era.  If there was a level crossing at the station, the box at that end would usually be the one kept.

 

The North and South signal boxes at Hawes Junction (aka Garsdale) were replaced by the extant single box, midway between the original two, in 1910. At this date there was no motorisation of points; I'm not aware of any simplification of the layout. It may be that longer rodding runs were permissible by this date, or it may simply have been an economy measure. Whether that was a contributory factor in the notorious accident that Christmas Eve, I wouldn't like to say. Major Pringle seems not to have thought so.

[Michael Hodgson]

On 20/08/2021 at 16:00, Rugd1022 said:

Rugby Midland had a similar arrangement, with 'boxes controlling crossovers mid way along platforms 1 and 2....

 

Sorry this is slightly off topic in that there were rather more than two boxes at Rugby.  The midway boxes, Numbers 2 and 3 were necessary because the points were too far to be worked from the boxes at either end of the very long island platform.  The scissors crossovers allowed two connecting trains of up to about 8 coaches to occupy the same platform face and either train could be first to depart regardless of which one had arrived first.  Number 2 box only signalled Down trains whilst No 3 only controlled the Up.

 

The LNWR had some interesting bell and whistle codes for routing and unusual acceptance practices for trains at Rugby.

An express not stopping at Rugby was offered using bell code 4-4-4, the same as the Royal Train.

For a non-stop Down train , the driver would whistle at Welton (or at Long Buckby if coming via Northampton):

• twice for the Trent Valley Line
• or three times for the Birmingham route
• or four times for Leamington

In the Up direction  he would whistle at Coventry:

• 3 times for the "old" main line
• 4 times for the Market Harborough line or
• 5 times for the "new" line via Northampton

Routing codes were used, these were mainly the standard Is Line Clear bell code for the class of train with a suffix to indicate the route (there were a few exceptions to avoid clashing with some other standard bell code).   In the Down direction these were:

• standard codes for the main (Trent Valley) line,
• -2 suffix for Coventry/Birmingham,
• -4 for  the Leicester line
• -5 for Leamington.

Welton would have offered the train using the standard bell code but on hearing the whistle codes gave a Special Train Entering Section corresponding the required route to  the next Box, who would then offer the train forward using the special Is Line Clear code which was used right through Rugby.

 

When Hillmorton Sidings sent Train Entering Section, Clifton Road Junction would offer a train the Rugby No 1 box who would not accept it but would offer it immediately to No 2.  Similarly No 2 would offer to No 4, and No 4 would offer to No 5, No 5 to No 7, who would offer to Newbold.  Only when Newbold accepted the train would Number 7 accept from 5 who accepted from 4 who accepted from 2, No 2 from 1 and finally back to Clifton Road Junction who could then clear his signals including the distant.  This meant that a driver seeing Clifton Road's Distant off knew he had a clear road all the way through Rugby as far as Newbold.  Needless to say, the bell codes were rattled out very fast at these boxes.  

 

Once the semaphores were replaced with multiple aspect signals in the 1930s  this practice was no longer necessary because the Yellow and Double Yellow aspects gave adequate braking distances, so trains could be offered and accepted normally but the routing codes continued in use until the introduction of power signalling in the 1960s.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The North and South signal boxes at Hawes Junction (aka Garsdale) were replaced by the extant single box, midway between the original two, in 1910. At this date there was no motorisation of points; I'm not aware of any simplification of the layout. It may be that longer rodding runs were permissible by this date, or it may simply have been an economy measure. Whether that was a contributory factor in the notorious accident that Christmas Eve, I wouldn't like to say. Major Pringle seems not to have thought so.

The maximum permitted distance between a signal box and trailing points which it operated was increased from 180yds to 300yds in 1902.  The prermitted distance for facing points remained at 180 yds at that time.

 

From his Report I think Major Pringle concentrated on the significant failings which led to the collision and had those involved carried out the provision of various Rukes the only effect oif the distance involved would have been a longer walk for one of the Firemen .