Kev D Posted August 9, 2021 Share Posted August 9, 2021 I hope it is ok to submit this request. I volunteer for a charity, Greenways and cycleroutes, which has recently created a walking and cycle route from partof the WyeValley Railway. One of my tasks with others is to create web pages of the history of the line. This is the latest edition: https://www.wyevalleygreenway.org/history The next task is to write up an illustrated history of the coaching stock. Can anyone help or point me in the right direction for say 4/5 examples of passenger train formations from opening 1876 through to closure in 1959. I have information on the diesel railcars and autotrailers which I understand both worked the line from around 1935 to closure. However I cannot find authorative information on the coaching stock which I assume would have been, for example one brake third and a compartment third or just a brake third. I would like to put together formations from the same era eg two Collett coaches. Specific interests include clerestory coaches, gas lit coaches, Mk 1 stock and the earliest examples - perhaps Dean 4 wheeled carriages. In addition I am interested in any coaches operating at the same time as the autotrailers It would be most helpful if the suggestions can be illustrated by free-to-use images eg from Creative Commons or from models Many thanks 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hodgson Posted August 10, 2021 Share Posted August 10, 2021 The line had been closed for 10 years by the time I lived in Llandogo so I can't comment on stock. I assume you have the Oakwood Press book? I don't have my copy to hand but it may help you, comes up on ebay from time to time https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/oakwood-press-wye-valley-railway-485628661 In addition to the regular service trains, the GWR used to run day excursions from the Bristol area and elsewhere - these were advertised on posters and the GWR also produced guide books. https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/great-western-railway-tour-guide-wye-425825109 Tintern was a destination but sometimes there were more trains than the station could hold so they had to run on to Monmouth or back to Chepstow to lay over before the return excursion. As to the proposed route via the western bank, that would have required a bridge further downstream. The river is tidal south of Biggs Weir and I have seen flooding at Tintern several times, also in Chepstow before flood defences were erected a few years back. The water can rise very fast because of the exceptional tidal rise & fall of the Severn Estuary. A more southerly and much longer bridge would have been more vulnerable to tidal pressures on its supports and I suspect it might have been necessary to go some way down through alluvial deposits to reach a firm bedrock. Not beyond the engineers of the time but perhaps not the most prudent crossing place. The obligation on the company to build the Wireworks branch at their expense but not to earn revenue on it suggests to me that there were political pressures on the company from influential landowners. The religious authorities might well have taken a dim view of a line running close to the Abbey (even though disused since the Dissolution) and could well have been able informally to exercise influence discreetly. If there wasn't much difference in the estimated costs of the alternative routes, company directors if leaned on would be well advised to opt for the route with less opposition. A lot of the politics would be behind closed doors and undocumented. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev D Posted August 10, 2021 Author Share Posted August 10, 2021 Thank you for Michael your helpful comments I do have the Oakwood Press book . I really should have included the photos on my post . I cannot identify the coaches but I realise that modellers probably can . So I have attached the two main examples hoping they can be identified . I also have the guide book you mention which Peter Jones of the Great Western Trust kindly sent to me . The western route did require a substantial bridge downstream which is shown in the plan under the web site section ‘Investigation into the change of route ‘. There was also a high viaduct about 150 yards long connecting two tunnels. The conclusion on the web site is that western route was probably more expensive. It also refers to local opposition but does not make such a clear point as you do about company directors being inclined to choose a route with less opposition . I think we may amend the conclusion accordingly . Many thanks Kev 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
88D Posted August 10, 2021 Share Posted August 10, 2021 The coach in the bottom photo looks like a Thompson (ex LNER) brake third to me! Or are my eyes going? If so, I wonder if this then moved to the Culm branch to take over from the Barry Rly Coaches? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinT Posted August 10, 2021 Share Posted August 10, 2021 - but that's not Severn Tunnel Junction - more like Tiverton Junction, which would explain the Thompson Bk 3rd! 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
88D Posted August 10, 2021 Share Posted August 10, 2021 15 minutes ago, martinT said: - but that's not Severn Tunnel Junction - more like Tiverton Junction, which would explain the Thompson Bk 3rd! That explains my conundrum. Thanks. I wonder if Tintern and Tiverton have got confused? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev D Posted August 11, 2021 Author Share Posted August 11, 2021 Thank you - good detective work about the Thompson brake third ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted August 11, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 11, 2021 1421 was during the late 40s and early 50s the regular Llantrisant loco on the Cowbridge branch, about as bucolic as South Wales ever got, sister 1471 being the regular on the Penygraig, two branches from the same junction that could hardly have been more different in character! There is a photo of it in John Lewis' 'Great Western Auto Trailers' at Cowbridge during this period in early 1948 livery with the 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' on the tanks in GW style Egyptian Serif lettering. Photos in this book at Monmouth taken in the early 50s show 64xx and 14xx with diagram A31 trailers, including an undated, credit R H G Simpson W 207 W in unlined carmine 1948 BR livery , (not applied to auto trailers until mid 1950), with the ventilators plated over and hauled by a 57xx, probably an arrival from Pontypool Road. There is also one of the same trailer in the same livery credit H.C. Casserley, no less, with another trailer in carmine with ventilators painted over rather than plated; this is almost certainly W 147 W, an A24 photographed by him at Troy, also undated. but sometime between mid 1950 and December 1956 when W 207 W was withdrawn. 6417 at Tintern, and this is definitely Tintern not Tiverton from the canopy on the other platform visible in the background, is hauling an A44 intermediate trailer next the loco and what looks like a 'cyclops' A43 behind it, which were introduced originally in South Wales in 1953, rebuilt from Collett compartment stock, and will still probably be in BR unlined carmine livery, though unlined maroon was used from 1956 onwards. After 1956, some 14xx and 64xx were given fully lined BR green passenger livery, but 6417 hasn't been done yet. Probably never was, as BR Database has it allox Ebbw Jc 6/58, which pins the date down a little closer, and withdrawn at end of 4/59. I agree that the Thompson brake 3rd means that the 14xx is at Tiverton Jc on a Hemyock working, but am not convinced that it is a photo of 1421; a very close look at the number plate blown up as far as I can suggests that the last digit is leaning towards the edge of the plate, making this loco 1427. 1421 was at Exeter in the early 60s, according to BR Database, by which time IIRC Hemyock had closed to passneger traffic, though I'm happy to be corrected on that. BR Database gives no allocations for 1427 until the early 60s at Horton Road, which is where '21 also ended it's days. This shot, credit L & GRP, is from the footbridge at Troy and dated 29/7/32, but as Monmouth Troy is a junction we cannot state that this is a Wye Valley train, though this is probable as the board is off for the Chepstow route. The loco is a 517 or a Metro and the livery probably 1920s GW for both loco and trailer. Trailer might be an A31, Newport Division had a few of those, in which case it will have been fairly recently converted from a steam railmotor, though the roof is dirty enough for it to have been in service for a good while. A Ross on Wye service is standing over awaiting the Chepstow's departure to occupy the platform but the bracket signal obscures it from view and neither stock nor trailer can be identified Credit E. Wilmhurst, looking east from the tunnel portal, undated though this is probably the 1950s (but the trailer could be in 1942-5 austerity brown, and the date post 1942 to late 40s). I think the train is probably setting back into the plaform road to form a Ross-on-Wye service following the departure of a Chepstow train; a Ponypool Road would have a headlamp beneath the central cab window of the trailer. The tail lamp is not in the usual postion for auto working and the train may be running in a 'normal' loco-hauled condition. It is impossible to identify the loco. The coach next the loco may therefore not be an auto trailer, but if it is it will be a compartment A43 or A44, making this post 1953. Credit Lens of Sutton, undated, northbound auto at Tintern with steel bodied trailers, A27, 28, or 30, in what is almost certainly BR unlined carmine or possibly unlined 1956-9 maroon. From mid 1948 to 1950, BR Western Region painted auto trailers in the lined carmine and cream 'blood and custard' livery, but the story goes that Mr Riddles, the CME, saw one at Paddington one day and wrote a strongly worded letter to the region demanding an explanation of what his best main line passenger livery was doing on a humble auto trailer. Coaches were overhauled and repainted roughly every 7 years or so, so this must be be after 1950 at the earliest, but could still be 1959 when the branch closed to passenger traffic. This one's dated, 21/6/51, and can be fairly accurately timed, it's the 14.30 Chepstow-Monmouth so this is about quarter to three in the pm, credit W.A.Camwell. Wouldn't swear to the livery and this railcar is not identified, they were introduced in 1940, and the last of the single cars built in 1941, but not GWR shirtbutton which would show on the cab front; possibly 1945-48 GW chocolate and cream, especially with the very dark roof colour, or even early 1948 BR(W) chocolate and cream, but statistically most likely mid 1948-56 BR carmine and cream. It is difficult to be certain in the contrasty lighting. Hoping that some of this stuff about dates and liveries is of some use to you, Kev! 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 8 minutes ago, The Johnster said: Credit E. Wilmhurst, looking east from the tunnel portal, undated though this is probably the 1950s (but the trailer could be in 1942-5 austerity brown, and the date post 1942 to late 40s). More likely the 1950s I should think. I worked with Eddie Wilmshurst in the 1970s, and although I can’t be sure of his age, my guess is ‘too young to have been photographing trains that far from home in the 1940s’. Eddie took thousands of photos in obscure branch lines in the 50s and 60s - his photos often show things that others missed, because he looked at the railway, rather than simply pointing his camera at locos. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 20 hours ago, 88D said: That explains my conundrum. Thanks. I wonder if Tintern and Tiverton have got confused? Don't believe everything you read on Tinternet.... Sorry, had to be done. 2 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted August 11, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 11, 2021 19 minutes ago, Nearholmer said: More likely the 1950s I should think. I worked with Eddie Wilmshurst in the 1970s, and although I can’t be sure of his age, my guess is ‘too young to have been photographing trains that far from home in the 1940s’. Eddie took thousands of photos in obscure branch lines in the 50s and 60s - his photos often show things that others missed, because he looked at the railway, rather than simply pointing his camera at locos. Always nice to have my assumptions backed up, NH. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hodgson Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 I seem to recall a story in the local papers some years ago about the main Station Building at Chepstow being moved a short distance, though I don't remember why. The listed station footbridge was refurbished earlier this year. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted August 12, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 12, 2021 Wye Valley trains at Chepstow seem to have been a bit camera shy; this is the only one I can find on Google images, 1411(?) with two trailers, a steel bodied A27 or A28 with flush driver's doors, and what looks very much like W 207 W, plated ventilator toplights. This trailer was withdrawn in late 1956, and is in unlined carmine, as is the steel bodied trailer. Or is it 1421? The number looks like 1411 but this loco was never shedded in the area, and according to BR Database was allox Neasden 34E 10/50 to 7/54, then Slough 81B 7/54 to withdrawal 10/56. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev D Posted August 12, 2021 Author Share Posted August 12, 2021 20 hours ago, The Johnster said: 1421 was during the late 40s and early 50s the regular Llantrisant loco on the Cowbridge branch, about as bucolic as South Wales ever got, sister 1471 being the regular on the Penygraig, two branches from the same junction that could hardly have been more different in character! There is a photo of it in John Lewis' 'Great Western Auto Trailers' at Cowbridge during this period in early 1948 livery with the 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' on the tanks in GW style Egyptian Serif lettering. Photos in this book at Monmouth taken in the early 50s show 64xx and 14xx with diagram A31 trailers, including an undated, credit R H G Simpson W 207 W in unlined carmine 1948 BR livery , (not applied to auto trailers until mid 1950), with the ventilators plated over and hauled by a 57xx, probably an arrival from Pontypool Road. There is also one of the same trailer in the same livery credit H.C. Casserley, no less, with another trailer in carmine with ventilators painted over rather than plated; this is almost certainly W 147 W, an A24 photographed by him at Troy, also undated. but sometime between mid 1950 and December 1956 when W 207 W was withdrawn. 6417 at Tintern, and this is definitely Tintern not Tiverton from the canopy on the other platform visible in the background, is hauling an A44 intermediate trailer next the loco and what looks like a 'cyclops' A43 behind it, which were introduced originally in South Wales in 1953, rebuilt from Collett compartment stock, and will still probably be in BR unlined carmine livery, though unlined maroon was used from 1956 onwards. After 1956, some 14xx and 64xx were given fully lined BR green passenger livery, but 6417 hasn't been done yet. Probably never was, as BR Database has it allox Ebbw Jc 6/58, which pins the date down a little closer, and withdrawn at end of 4/59. I agree that the Thompson brake 3rd means that the 14xx is at Tiverton Jc on a Hemyock working, but am not convinced that it is a photo of 1421; a very close look at the number plate blown up as far as I can suggests that the last digit is leaning towards the edge of the plate, making this loco 1427. 1421 was at Exeter in the early 60s, according to BR Database, by which time IIRC Hemyock had closed to passneger traffic, though I'm happy to be corrected on that. BR Database gives no allocations for 1427 until the early 60s at Horton Road, which is where '21 also ended it's days. This shot, credit L & GRP, is from the footbridge at Troy and dated 29/7/32, but as Monmouth Troy is a junction we cannot state that this is a Wye Valley train, though this is probable as the board is off for the Chepstow route. The loco is a 517 or a Metro and the livery probably 1920s GW for both loco and trailer. Trailer might be an A31, Newport Division had a few of those, in which case it will have been fairly recently converted from a steam railmotor, though the roof is dirty enough for it to have been in service for a good while. A Ross on Wye service is standing over awaiting the Chepstow's departure to occupy the platform but the bracket signal obscures it from view and neither stock nor trailer can be identified Credit E. Wilmhurst, looking east from the tunnel portal, undated though this is probably the 1950s (but the trailer could be in 1942-5 austerity brown, and the date post 1942 to late 40s). I think the train is probably setting back into the plaform road to form a Ross-on-Wye service following the departure of a Chepstow train; a Ponypool Road would have a headlamp beneath the central cab window of the trailer. The tail lamp is not in the usual postion for auto working and the train may be running in a 'normal' loco-hauled condition. It is impossible to identify the loco. The coach next the loco may therefore not be an auto trailer, but if it is it will be a compartment A43 or A44, making this post 1953. Credit Lens of Sutton, undated, northbound auto at Tintern with steel bodied trailers, A27, 28, or 30, in what is almost certainly BR unlined carmine or possibly unlined 1956-9 maroon. From mid 1948 to 1950, BR Western Region painted auto trailers in the lined carmine and cream 'blood and custard' livery, but the story goes that Mr Riddles, the CME, saw one at Paddington one day and wrote a strongly worded letter to the region demanding an explanation of what his best main line passenger livery was doing on a humble auto trailer. Coaches were overhauled and repainted roughly every 7 years or so, so this must be be after 1950 at the earliest, but could still be 1959 when the branch closed to passenger traffic. This one's dated, 21/6/51, and can be fairly accurately timed, it's the 14.30 Chepstow-Monmouth so this is about quarter to three in the pm, credit W.A.Camwell. Wouldn't swear to the livery and this railcar is not identified, they were introduced in 1940, and the last of the single cars built in 1941, but not GWR shirtbutton which would show on the cab front; possibly 1945-48 GW chocolate and cream, especially with the very dark roof colour, or even early 1948 BR(W) chocolate and cream, but statistically most likely mid 1948-56 BR carmine and cream. It is difficult to be certain in the contrasty lighting. Hoping that some of this stuff about dates and liveries is of some use to you, Kev! 20 hours ago, The Johnster said: 1421 was during the late 40s and early 50s the regular Llantrisant loco on the Cowbridge branch, about as bucolic as South Wales ever got, sister 1471 being the regular on the Penygraig, two branches from the same junction that could hardly have been more different in character! There is a photo of it in John Lewis' 'Great Western Auto Trailers' at Cowbridge during this period in early 1948 livery with the 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' on the tanks in GW style Egyptian Serif lettering. Photos in this book at Monmouth taken in the early 50s show 64xx and 14xx with diagram A31 trailers, including an undated, credit R H G Simpson W 207 W in unlined carmine 1948 BR livery , (not applied to auto trailers until mid 1950), with the ventilators plated over and hauled by a 57xx, probably an arrival from Pontypool Road. There is also one of the same trailer in the same livery credit H.C. Casserley, no less, with another trailer in carmine with ventilators painted over rather than plated; this is almost certainly W 147 W, an A24 photographed by him at Troy, also undated. but sometime between mid 1950 and December 1956 when W 207 W was withdrawn. 6417 at Tintern, and this is definitely Tintern not Tiverton from the canopy on the other platform visible in the background, is hauling an A44 intermediate trailer next the loco and what looks like a 'cyclops' A43 behind it, which were introduced originally in South Wales in 1953, rebuilt from Collett compartment stock, and will still probably be in BR unlined carmine livery, though unlined maroon was used from 1956 onwards. After 1956, some 14xx and 64xx were given fully lined BR green passenger livery, but 6417 hasn't been done yet. Probably never was, as BR Database has it allox Ebbw Jc 6/58, which pins the date down a little closer, and withdrawn at end of 4/59. I agree that the Thompson brake 3rd means that the 14xx is at Tiverton Jc on a Hemyock working, but am not convinced that it is a photo of 1421; a very close look at the number plate blown up as far as I can suggests that the last digit is leaning towards the edge of the plate, making this loco 1427. 1421 was at Exeter in the early 60s, according to BR Database, by which time IIRC Hemyock had closed to passneger traffic, though I'm happy to be corrected on that. BR Database gives no allocations for 1427 until the early 60s at Horton Road, which is where '21 also ended it's days. This shot, credit L & GRP, is from the footbridge at Troy and dated 29/7/32, but as Monmouth Troy is a junction we cannot state that this is a Wye Valley train, though this is probable as the board is off for the Chepstow route. The loco is a 517 or a Metro and the livery probably 1920s GW for both loco and trailer. Trailer might be an A31, Newport Division had a few of those, in which case it will have been fairly recently converted from a steam railmotor, though the roof is dirty enough for it to have been in service for a good while. A Ross on Wye service is standing over awaiting the Chepstow's departure to occupy the platform but the bracket signal obscures it from view and neither stock nor trailer can be identified Credit E. Wilmhurst, looking east from the tunnel portal, undated though this is probably the 1950s (but the trailer could be in 1942-5 austerity brown, and the date post 1942 to late 40s). I think the train is probably setting back into the plaform road to form a Ross-on-Wye service following the departure of a Chepstow train; a Ponypool Road would have a headlamp beneath the central cab window of the trailer. The tail lamp is not in the usual postion for auto working and the train may be running in a 'normal' loco-hauled condition. It is impossible to identify the loco. The coach next the loco may therefore not be an auto trailer, but if it is it will be a compartment A43 or A44, making this post 1953. Credit Lens of Sutton, undated, northbound auto at Tintern with steel bodied trailers, A27, 28, or 30, in what is almost certainly BR unlined carmine or possibly unlined 1956-9 maroon. From mid 1948 to 1950, BR Western Region painted auto trailers in the lined carmine and cream 'blood and custard' livery, but the story goes that Mr Riddles, the CME, saw one at Paddington one day and wrote a strongly worded letter to the region demanding an explanation of what his best main line passenger livery was doing on a humble auto trailer. Coaches were overhauled and repainted roughly every 7 years or so, so this must be be after 1950 at the earliest, but could still be 1959 when the branch closed to passenger traffic. This one's dated, 21/6/51, and can be fairly accurately timed, it's the 14.30 Chepstow-Monmouth so this is about quarter to three in the pm, credit W.A.Camwell. Wouldn't swear to the livery and this railcar is not identified, they were introduced in 1940, and the last of the single cars built in 1941, but not GWR shirtbutton which would show on the cab front; possibly 1945-48 GW chocolate and cream, especially with the very dark roof colour, or even early 1948 BR(W) chocolate and cream, but statistically most likely mid 1948-56 BR carmine and cream. It is difficult to be certain in the contrasty lighting. Hoping that some of this stuff about dates and liveries is of some use to you, Kev! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev D Posted August 12, 2021 Author Share Posted August 12, 2021 Thank you for the very detailed and helpful responses . I am new to this so I hope you don’t mind me asking if all the responses so far have referred to Autotrailers and railcars. Have we any information about other coaching stock from the the 1930s onwards? Or was the line only worked with the autotrailers/ railcars . Before that date what would have been the coaching stock involved please. I attach one photo of a metro class from 1912 . Is the attached coach a ‘Toplight’ and we’re the exterior handles made of brass Thank you Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 13 minutes ago, Kev D said: Is the attached coach a ‘Toplight’ No. It seems to be a clerestory, probably non-corridor. Never seen one of those on the Wye Valley! (But it kinda answers your question about coaches in earlier periods.) There is an ancient BRJ with an article about the Wye Valley with a great shot of a 517 and a set of four 4-wheelers, towing a couple of cattle wagons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev D Posted August 12, 2021 Author Share Posted August 12, 2021 Wonderful! I imagine it was gas lit as well? Could you let me know where I can get a copy or see a copy of the article about the Wye Valley with the shot of the 4 wheelers Did they look like this Dean 4 wheeler at Didcot ? Could you tell me what BRJ stands for ? Thank you Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted August 15, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 15, 2021 British Railway Journal, sister magazine of Model Railway Journal, Wild Swan Publications. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted August 15, 2021 Share Posted August 15, 2021 (edited) It might have been an early edition of GWRJ, rather than BRJ - I really can't remember now. The 4-wheeler rake looked like a standard Brk 3rd, 3rd, Compo, Brk 3rd set, the brakes being T34 or T36. Edited August 15, 2021 by Miss Prism Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted August 26, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 26, 2021 On 15/08/2021 at 18:38, Miss Prism said: T34 or T36. Not Soviet tanks. For elucidation, see http://penrhos.me.uk/CoachesIntro.shtml#! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted August 27, 2021 Share Posted August 27, 2021 Pity. Need something to put on all those Warwells and Warflats that isn't a Sherman, Cromwell or Crusader.... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hodgson Posted August 27, 2021 Share Posted August 27, 2021 You might find Tidenham Tunnel rather tight for such traffic. In any case tanking tanks to Tintern would be excessive, the Abbey there has been ruined since Henry VIII and the Cistercians were never very well armed. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted August 28, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 28, 2021 Highly organised and economically productive, though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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