DR4018, Z21 and MP1 point motors.

[WIMorrison]

The only solution to the address issue is to start at what should be #1, readdress it as #1, then go to #2, readdress it, and then ...

 

There isn't any shortcut that will save you time and frustration.

[josekimber]

Yes, I do realise that I have to do them one by one, that is what I have been doing all along.  it should not make any difference what addresses I give them, so long as they don't clash with the others that are already programmed.

 

If I can't resolve the problem I will have to give up and replace the individual decoders with accessory ones.  They make a messy lot of wiring anyway, but I wanted avoid the expense and work of replacing them.

Jose

 

[WIMorrison]

The individual Digitrax should work as single accessory decoders, that is what they are designed to do.

[josekimber]

I have come to the conclusion that the issue is caused by the DR4088.  Having thought about it further, everything was working before I introduced the Z21.  The only change I made after acquiring the Z21 was to disconnect the DR4088, which being S88 is not compatible with the Z21.  I am not at home at the moment but when I get back on Tuesday I will connect the Commander back up and connect the DR4088 back up as well.  If the points all then work as they did before, that will point to the DR4088 as being the source of the problem.  My husband who knows a lot more about electrics than I do, but is not familiar with the way DCC works, thinks this is the most likely cause.

I will report back when I have done the test.  If that is the cause, the only way I can solve it is to remove the DR4088 altogether and reconnect all the sections back to the bus, a rather horrible job, but the best way to reduce any interference.

Jose

[WIMorrison]

Jose,

 

as I said earlier removing the dr4088 is a simple task and doesn’t require any alterations- simply remove the wires from the DR4088 and connect them all together using a chocolate block (or two).

 

it really is that simple.

[josekimber]

Unfortunately I can’t see any easy way to connect all the wires together.  I have discussed this with my husband and he could not think of a way to do it without a lot of soldering and added complexity.

 

Also given that the wiring is a bit of a mess because I had to extend the wires to reach the DR4088.   Although a lot more work, it would make a much neater job to solder them direct to the bus.  Although it would mean that I could not reconnect the DR4088 later,  I can’t see that I will want to.  It was something of a failed experiment with occupancy detection which hasn’t really worked as I had hoped.

 

If you can think of an easy way to do it with choc blocks, perhaps you could explain in more detail?  

[WIMorrison]

Jose,

 

Not sure how to say it other than unscrew the connectors on 4088 and remove the wires from them, then take all the wires you have removed from the dr4088 and simply take a block of 9 connectors and loop a wire to all of them on one side then put wires 1-8 + a "C" wire into the block then repeat for the other 9 wires or twist the all ends together (perhaps 2 x 9 wires) and screw them into a chocolate block for security, or you could use Wago connectors.

 

Lots of options, none of which need much work or effort, and none which require any rewiring to be done.

Edited August 21, 2022 by WIMorrison

[WIMorrison]

Here is a really simple and easy solution for you that only requires that you transfer the wires from DR4088 to this board using just one side of the board (the other side will be isolated and completely free for you to use.

 

Power Distribution Board

 

 

[josekimber]

Hi Iain

 

That looks perfect, thanks very much, nice and simple so even I can probably manage it!  I have ordered one.  Hopefully that will solve the problem.

 

Jose

[GRUNFOS]

Hi, Can this be programmed with a  NCE Power cab by any chance?

 

Thanks

Paul.

[WIMorrison]

If you can operate a turnout with your power cab then you can program the addresses, if you can do Program on Main then it is easy to program the CVs

 

 

[DaveArkley]

On 21/08/2022 at 13:01, josekimber said:

I have come to the conclusion that the issue is caused by the DR4088.  Having thought about it further, everything was working before I introduced the Z21.  The only change I made after acquiring the Z21 was to disconnect the DR4088, which being S88 is not compatible with the Z21.  I am not at home at the moment but when I get back on Tuesday I will connect the Commander back up and connect the DR4088 back up as well.  If the points all then work as they did before, that will point to the DR4088 as being the source of the problem.  My husband who knows a lot more about electrics than I do, but is not familiar with the way DCC works, thinks this is the most likely cause.

I will report back when I have done the test.  If that is the cause, the only way I can solve it is to remove the DR4088 altogether and reconnect all the sections back to the bus, a rather horrible job, but the best way to reduce any interference.

Jose

Hi,

 

A DR4088RB-CS connects to Z21 via RBUS or a DR4088LN-CS via Loconet. Both have downstream connectors for S88. Would that help?

 

Cheers

Dave 

Edited August 26, 2022 by DaveArkley

[GRUNFOS]

Thanks for that, will give it a go.

 

Paul.

[josekimber]

Well. I have received the Power Distribution Board, disconnected the DR4088 and connected up the Power Distribution Board which seems to be working as intended, and all the track sections work.  I then reprogrammed all the points with the Digitrax decoders.  The upshot of that is that points 1-5 now all work reliably, but the remainder, 6-13 are all over the place.  Depending on which of the points I program, it can operate several others all at once, and if anything the issue seems to be getting worse, the more I reprogram them, the more of the others seem to be operated at once.  I have carried out a number of tests and written down the results.  I started at the other end, for a change:

Program decoder 13.  This causes 13, 12, 11 and 10 to operate together.

Program no 12 This causes 12, 11 and 10 to operate together.  13 still works on its own.

Program no 11, this causes 11 and 10 to operate together, 13 and 12 still work on the their own.

Program no 10, causes 10 and 11 to operate together, 13 and 12 still work, 11 does not work.

Program no 9, causes all of 6-12 to operate together, 13 still works on its own.

Program no 7 causes 7, 6, 8, 9, 10, 11 & 12 to operate together.  13 now operates 12, 11 & 10 together and 9 now works on its own!

What on earth is going on?  I am completely baffled!  Is it the decoders, or something in the wiring?

The one thing I have proved is that it is not the z21.  I get similar results with the Viessmann Commander (though it all worked with it before) and with my trusty old ZTC 511 which gets called in for duty when all else fails.  Should I give up and replace the Digitrax decoders with an accessory decoder such as the DR4018 which I know works?

All ideas/suggestions gratefully received!

 

Thanks Dave for the suggestion about the other versions of DR4088.  I did look at the possibility of buying the Loconet version, but given the issues with Railcomm and the Z21 I decided against it, as it is more cost for some functionality I am not sure I need at the moment, I decided it was better just to cut out the DR4088 altogether.

Jose

[WIMorrison]

Jose

 

I don't think that anyone here could fault-find the scenario you describe without being at the layout to fault find the issues. I would certainly need to be at the layout to start working from first principles to reduce the complexity and hopefully identify the issue.

 

I would;

 

• disconnect all turnout motors, those connected to DR4018 also.
• Reconnect DR4018 and ensure those turnouts are all working.
• Reconnect the first of the Digitrax decoders, reprogram it to the correct address ensuring that it definitely does not have a clash with some other address on the layout, e.g. signal,  lights, turnout. Confirm that DR4018 turnouts all work correctly AND this turnout.
• Repeat the step above for another Digitrax decoder then test all turnouts connected.
• Repeat until all decoders have been reset and all are shown to be working.

If you identify a fault at some point then you need to fault find the issue at that stage - currently there are too many faults to ever get a handle on the issue.

 

If you are near(ish) Alton, Hants then drop me a PM and I will come along to help you - especially if you are the 009 Society Jose Kimber 😉

[josekimber]

Thanks for that, Iain.  Yes, I am the 009 Society Jose Kimber, but unfortunately I am far away in Tiverton, Devon.  I have posed the question to Digitrax and they say that it is unlikely to be an issue with the decoders themselves, but suggest it could have something to do with the programming switches, so I think I will have to explore that further.  We were going to disconnect one of the switches from the control panel and move it to the other end of the layout nearer to the decoders, to see if that makes any difference.  If that point then works, I will know that it is the switches that are causing the problem.  Either that or I just bite the bullet and get rid of the offending Digitrax decoders.  That would cost about £90 for a DR4018 and the 2 wire to 3 wire adaptors I would need, but given the amount of time I have already spent trying to resolve this, it might be the easiest solution!

Jose

[RobinofLoxley]

Jose, it all looks a bit mad at the moment but if you follow what Ian suggests you will eventually resolve the problems. The accessory decoders need to be disconnected, all of them, then reconnected, reset, and then reprogrammed one at a time. Their brains are scrambled and they need individual resets. I had similar issues with DR4018's where they didnt seem to accept instructions, and because there is no feedback you are unaware until you start operating them. I doubt that any need to be replaced.

[WIMorrison]

Jose, I am exhibiting at the Small and Beautiful show in Compton Dundon on 24th Sept and will be staying at Dulverton for a long weekend and the end of Sept 😉

[josekimber]

Hi Iain

I had not made the connection with the Iain of the 009 Society who sets up the Zoom meetings for the Lynton & Barnstaple Special Interest Group which I run.  It's a small world!  

 

The weekend of 24th September is quite a busy one as it is also the Lynton & Barnstaple Autumn Gala which we always go to, but Compton Dundon was already in my diary and I was hoping to go as some of the SWOONS people are going to be there, including Richard Holder, Adrian Broadhead and Geoff Broadhurst.  Hopefully I will catch up with you there.  I hope to have made some progress before then, though.

 

I am still trying to decide whether it is worth continuing with all the work of disconnecting all the decoders or just go for the accessory decoder which will enable me to tidy up some of the rats nest of wiring.  It is very tempting to do that as it would save a lot of time because it would not involve a lot of soldering under the baseboard,  I know that the DR4018 works and I know how to connect it up and program it.

 

Jose

[josekimber]

Success!  Or at, I hope so.  All of the points are now working as they should.  I am not sure what it was I did to resolve it, but first, Ian did a lot of mystical tests with a test meter, and then did some experiments which had no effect.  At that point we decided we had spent enough time on it and it was time to give up on it.  I then disconnected the point motor wires from the Digitrax decoder for point 13, which happens to be the furthest away from the programming switches and the Z21.  I moved the point motor wires onto a spare connector on one of the ZTC accessory decoders, so it now becomes point 28.  I then found, for some weird reason that point 25 was now causing point 12, the next one along, to operate.  I then connected up the old ZTC511 controller, which has the advantage of being very simple to operate so long as you follow the correct keystrokes.  Using the 511, I reprogrammed point 12, which then worked (without no 25), so I proceeded to reprogram nos 11 to 6.  All worked!  I then connected up the Viessmann Commander, and they all worked with that, and then finally the Z21, and they all worked with that too.

It seems that for some reason, moving that point to the accessory decoder somehow untangled things.  I don't know if it is the way that the Z21 programs the points somehow caused the decoders to receive confused signals.  I know I did not follow the correct procedure for programming when I first did it.  However it does now seem to be sorted.  I thought you would like to know.