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Kingsbridge Branch : Interesting photo?


Blobrick
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I just happened to be trawling through some photos taken on the Kingsbridge branch, when this one caught my eye. Take a look at the locomotive, which appears to be a 45xx class prairie tank, does anything look odd?  It could of course be my eyes, but does anyone else see anything unusual about this loco?

 

Bob C 

Kings3.JPG

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You don’t say what you think is unusual about it. To me it looks like an ordinary member of the 4575 series of prairie tanks in lined green with large early crest.

 

These locos had larger side tanks with slopping fronts. They were common on the Kingsbridge branch.

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It must surely be an optical illusion or something to do with the angle of view/enlargement of the original photo.  If you look carefully the front of the tank is clearly lower but the side looks almost as if it continues at the same height until you enlarge the photo and see that the illusion is partially created by the water filler plus a difference in the degree of cleanliness of the side tank plus, I suspect a possibly slightly less than sharp focus (or printing or over enlargement at some time),

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50 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

It must surely be an optical illusion or something to do with the angle of view/enlargement of the original photo.  If you look carefully the front of the tank is clearly lower but the side looks almost as if it continues at the same height until you enlarge the photo and see that the illusion is partially created by the water filler plus a difference in the degree of cleanliness of the side tank plus, I suspect a possibly slightly less than sharp focus (or printing or over enlargement at some time),

 

Hi stationmaster, that's exactly what l thought when l first looked at it. The photo makes it look as if the top of large style tanks extends forward without dropping as expected. Yes it's an optical illusion, but l was interested in what other people could see. I hoped it was not just me lol

 

Bob C

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I think part of the illusion is caused by the water filler upstand being just at the right angle so that the highlight on it aligns with the highlight on the tank corner. Combine that with JPEG compression and you have what appears to be one continuous highlight.

 

Edit: Oops! That's what the Stationmaster said already. D'Oh!

Edited by Harlequin
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It think this photo was originally taken by Keith Pirt (W471 in his listings) and depicts 4587 leaving the station one evening in July 1957.  Another shot by him shows 4587 at the station on, presumably, the same day (W86) confirms the loco and stock.  The first coach is one of the Collett non-corridor Brake Composites of Diagram E145 that ran singularly rather than as B Sets.  The other looks to me like a Hawksworth E167 BC.

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4 hours ago, sandra said:

You don’t say what you think is unusual about it. To me it looks like an ordinary member of the 4575 series of prairie tanks in lined green with large early crest.

 

It looks more like unlined black to me.

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1 hour ago, Pannier Tank said:

 

It looks more like unlined black to me.

The other pictures of 4587 at that time (assuming my theory above is correct) show it in clean lined green with the large version of the early crest.

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1 hour ago, Pannier Tank said:

 

It looks more like unlined black to me.

 

I have to agree, it looked that way to me too, happy to be corrected though, lined green E/E would be interesting

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8 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

The other pictures of 4587 at that time (assuming my theory above is correct) show it in clean lined green with the large version of the early crest.

 

Where did you find the photos of 4587 Mike?

 

Edited by Blobrick
typo
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On 12/08/2021 at 16:35, Blobrick said:

 

Where did you find the photos of 4587 Mike?

 

Commercial slides sold some years ago by Keith that I've collected over the years.

 

Here's the shot at Kingsbridge taken on the same day I think.  Not much doubt about the livery!

1472603079_KRP-W86_BRW4587Kingsbridge7-57.jpg.27fb5e0b2da9b3a0a377530857fd7768.jpg

 

Edited by Mike_Walker
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33 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

Commercial slides sold some years ago by Keith that I've collected over the years.

 

Here's the shot at Kingsbridge taken on the same day I think.  Not much doubt about the livery!

 

1303045214_KRP-W86_BRW4587Kingsbridge7-57.jpg.550b0dd5b651f089f14e5bf56c11e762.jpg

 

 

I stand happily corrected Mike (nice photo btw) it does show how we all see the same thing differently! 

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8 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

The first coach is one of the Collett non-corridor Brake Composites of Diagram E145 that ran singularly rather than as B Sets.

Looks like an E147 to me from the end profile, guard's door not recessed (though hard to tell) and critically only one window on the pair of luggage doors. Also look more like pressed steel bogies although again it's just an impression.

Edited by Hal Nail
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6 hours ago, Winnie said:

The lamp in the original photo is in the position for a light engine is this unusual ?

It's in the same position in the colour photo too.  Class B lamps were often seen in that position and years ago I came across something which said that it could be done but either I imagined it or it was in a letter because I haven't been able to rediscover the reference in recent years (but will keep looking).  But you will find examples of it all over the place although in some places it was probably officially authorised while in others it was simply done for convenience to avoid reaching up to the top lamp bracket.

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10 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

Looks like an E147 to me from the end profile, guard's door not recessed (though hard to tell) and critically only one window on the pair of luggage doors. Also look more like pressed steel bogies although again it's just an impression.

Yes, I stand corrected, I hadn't spotted those obvious giveaway details!

 

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9 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

It's in the same position in the colour photo too.  Class B lamps were often seen in that position and years ago I came across something which said that it could be done but either I imagined it or it was in a letter because I haven't been able to rediscover the reference in recent years (but will keep looking).  But you will find examples of it all over the place although in some places it was probably officially authorised while in others it was simply done for convenience to avoid reaching up to the top lamp bracket.

As Mike says, it was commonplace on the Western to find a class B head code lamp placed in that position although it was probably more common on auto trains than loco-hauled ones. I suspect that the practice started with steam rail motors which seem to have only been able to display the lamp in that position and, once it was accepted practice, the typical railwayman's habit of always doing jobs the easiest way (permitted by the rules) ensured that it endured. Certainly on auto trains it would have made the regular swapping of red and white lamps much easier.

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5 minutes ago, bécasse said:

As Mike says, it was commonplace on the Western to find a class B head code lamp placed in that position although it was probably more common on auto trains than loco-hauled ones. I suspect that the practice started with steam rail motors which seem to have only been able to display the lamp in that position and, once it was accepted practice, the typical railwayman's habit of always doing jobs the easiest way (permitted by the rules) ensured that it endured. Certainly on auto trains it would have made the regular swapping of red and white lamps much easier.

Yes - but.  the question of auto train tail lamps when the engine was trailing is an interesting one and the use of the two different positions ('night'/daylight) for the tail lamp was a direct consequence of complaints from Signalmen about difficulty in seeing the lamp when it wasn't lit.  However , and as ever, Enginemen and Signalmen moved in their own worlds.

 

In the meanwhile, and apart from known specially authorised variant lamp codes, I'm still trying to run to earth anything official in respect of carrying a Class B lamp on the middle bracket above the buffer plank. (yes, that's the term some GWR official sources used instead of the words 'buffer beam').

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2 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

Yes, I stand corrected, I hadn't spotted those obvious giveaway details!

 

Not sure they were that obvious - I thought the same at first!

 

Another slightly unusual feature of these photos is the use of two brake composites rather than the more typical B set used on many other branches. I've seen all sorts of different diagram single coaches on this line, used in pairs usually oriented with the brake at the same end, or singly often with a van. Maybe one coach was often enough so it didn't warrant being allocated a B set during this period?

Edited by Hal Nail
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I am mildly puzzled about the lamp position as well.  It probably came down to local practice and wouldn’t have caused too many problems so long as everybody knew what was going on, but there is potential for confusion with the light engine/ebv headcode.  Photos of trains on the Pontypool Rd-Monmouth and Wye Valley routes show that it was normal on those routes, but it was never used on the Tondu Valleys network.  There may have been reasons for this and it would be interesting to know what they were, but I suspect that, if even Stationmaster Mike doesn’t know, we are stymied.  It seems to have been a specifically GW/WR practice, though. 
 

It also looks from photos as if tail lamps on auto trailers, normally on the centre bracket below the centre cab window in auto ‘mode’, were positioned on the bottom left (as you look at it) bracket when a trailer was being hauled in the ‘normal’ mode by a non-auto fitted loco, and presumably by an auto fitted one when the auto gear was not connected.  
 

A further point is that, if an empty, class C, auto train was being propelled, there was no indication to the signalman that it was not a class B ordinary passenger train. 

 

It wouldn’t be a rule if there weren’t exceptions!

 

 

 

 

Edited by The Johnster
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