Scratch building in an extinct gauge: hacking together a 4-4-0 in 2 inch gauge.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Hello all,

 

 

Welcome to my thread displaying my efforts to scratch build a locomotive in the extinct scale of Gauge 2.

 

What is Gauge 2 I hear you cry? Well, it was, between about 1898 and 1917 a scale with a gauge of 2 inches between the flanges, and was the middle the range between Gauge 1 (1 3/4 inches) and Gauge 3 (2 1/2) inches. It was relatively popular in both live steam and electric, with some extremely fine live steam locomotives being made for Bassett Lowke by James Carson in Gauge 2. Other than live steam, electric was also popular, with some very nice models being made by both Bing and Winteringhams Ltd. Clockwork was somewhat popular in the beginning with some very crude looking engines by Märklín. 
 

The end for Gauge 2 as a RTR item came during the Great War in 1917, when it was thought that when peace came it would be made redundant by both Gauge 1 and 3. It was fazed out until around 1927 after which nothing was really available, except for special order from Bassett Lowke. 
 

 

There are currently only two Gauge 2 layouts in operation, that I know of. One is owned by @unravelled, and is electric, and the other is owned by @Victorian, and is live steam and electric.

 

It is still quite hard to obtain Gauge 2 locomotives and rolling stock, with the last instance I’ve found of an engine being made was in 1927.

 

 

Until now.

 

I am currently engaged in a project to construct a Gauge 2 electric 4-4-0 to my own design, and looking loosely like a early 1900s LNWR 4-4-0.

 

 

As you can see in the above photo, the frames are cut from steel plate, the cab, boiler, smokebox plate and spectacle plate are all brass plate. The boiler is copper tube. Meccano has been used for the frame stretchers. The piano box and smokebox sides are wood. 
 

Now, I know it does look quite crude in the above photo. And I agree, it does. This is because it is in the very early stages of construction. 
 

You can also see that it currently has Meccano circles and pulleys for wheels. I haven’t yet acquired wheels for it, but they are definitely in the works. Last night I made the drawing below which will be given to a machinist who will be machining the wheels from either Walsall Model Engineering castings or some 2.5 inch diameter stainless steel my a dad said he might have. Depending on how much the machinist quotes, I will decide on the material.

 

 

Below is shot of the engine in its current state, with a light coat of LNWR black to make it look a bit better. The front bogie is made from Meccano at the moment, and actually looks really accurate, so I think I will keep the frame at fit some proper wheels. 
 

 

 

The chimney is currently just a round piece of wood which needs profiling.

 

 

So, you are probably wondering why I decided to build an engine to a scale in which there is no support market. Well, really I don’t know. But, this is line below pretty good incentive.

 

This is the first new Gauge 2 engine this century!

Questions, comments and such are encouraged.
 

Douglas

 

Edited September 1, 2021 by Florence Locomotive Works
Incorrect title.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

More work has been done over the past few days. This included, making the front bogie locating stud, the smokebox wrapper, and the splasher and side valances.

 

I think the photos can explain. Indeed it is true that soldering us a great weakness of mine. 
 

 

 

 

Douglas

 

 

[sncf231e]

Interesting, but why is this thread called "Scratch building in an extinct scale" while it is about scratch building in an extinct gauge?

Regards

Fred

[Florence Locomotive Works]

13 minutes ago, sncf231e said:

Interesting, but why is this thread called "Scratch building in an extinct scale" while it is about scratch building in an extinct gauge?

Regards

Fred

An excellent point Fred, I shall change it.

[Chris Turnbull]

How nice to see Gauge 2 receiving a mention in the hallowed pages of RMWeb.

 

Tony Hobson had a splendid dual-gauge track as detailed in this article:

http://www.viewing.com/Model Railways/Gauge 2/Keswick Lodge.html

I ran there myself with my Gauge One stuff many years ago and found Tony a great host as well as being extremely knowledgeable.  

 

There was also an article in the winter 2020 edition of the G1MRA Newsletter & Journal, an excellent publication produced quarterly, detailing the latest news.  As you can read, Gauge 2 may be a minority interest but, thanks to a few aficionados,  it is not quite extinct.

 

Good luck with your loco.

 

Chris Turnbull

 

G1MRA N&J 268 Gauge 2.pdf  

[Florence Locomotive Works]

10 hours ago, Chris Turnbull said:

How nice to see Gauge 2 receiving a mention in the hallowed pages of RMWeb.

 

Tony Hobson had a splendid dual-gauge track as detailed in this article:

http://www.viewing.com/Model Railways/Gauge 2/Keswick Lodge.html

I ran there myself with my Gauge One stuff many years ago and found Tony a great host as well as being extremely knowledgeable.  

 

There was also an article in the winter 2020 edition of the G1MRA Newsletter & Journal, an excellent publication produced quarterly, detailing the latest news.  As you can read, Gauge 2 may be a minority interest but, thanks to a few aficionados,  it is not quite extinct.

 

Good luck with your loco.

 

Chris Turnbull

 

G1MRA N&J 268 Gauge 2.pdf 2.46 MB · 10 downloads   

Thanks Chris, those were a very interesting morning read.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Hello all,

 

The second splasher has now been completed and fitted to the engine, but I didn't get any photos of it. Both splasher are attached at their respective fronts to a Meccano angle bracket, which allows them to pivot upwards for access to the driving wheels and such. The roof and one of the running plate trim pieces have also been cut out and await soldering.

 

 

 

(in the above photos it is indeed true that the boiler is misaligned with the piano box, this has now been rectified)

 

 

On the subject of wheels there has been some change. I recently did the math to see how much it would cost to get all the driving wheels machined by Walsall rather than here in Tulsa, and it came out at a lower figure than what I predicted, so I will contact the machinist and see what he quotes before deciding what to do.

 

 

Douglas

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Work is being carried out to possibly make the engine live steam.

 

 

Now something I don't think I have mentioned is that the boiler on this engine is actually a proper boiler, and should in theory supply steam to this 1950s Stuart Turner "ST" oscillating steam engine which will be fitted in between the frames. It will transmit its drive to the rear coupled axle via gearing. If the current boiler doesn't work out the either the engine will stay electric or I will make a better boiler and a twin cylinder engine with a crankshaft that would also function as the leading coupled axle.

 

 

The bore and stroke of the engine is roughly 1 x 1.5 cm.

 

 

 

 Here it is very roughly in place.

 

 

Douglas

 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Inside of the frames got painted Saturday.

 

 

Douglas

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Hello all,

 

 

I carved a new piano box last night from a pale hardwood of some description, and it looks quite good. After a bit more sanding and paint it will be hard to tell that it was once a tree. 
 

 

 

 

This afternoon if I get time I hope to solder the smokebox wrapper into a fixed position.

 

 

Douglas

[Florence Locomotive Works]

More progress was made today. The smokebox wrapper was indeed soldered to the running plate, and those blobs will be filed down in due course. I also artistically aged the dome, you can do this with steel by heating it to cherry red and then dunking it in canola oil to cool. Most of the exposed steel parts will have this done to them.

 

 

 

 

Douglas

Edited September 1, 2021 by Florence Locomotive Works

[Chris Turnbull]

8 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

More progress was made today. The smokebox wrapper was indeed soldered to the running plate, and those blobs will be filed down in due course. I also artistically aged the dome, you can do this with steel by heating it to cherry red and then dunking it in canola oil to cool. Most of the exposed steel parts will have this done to them.

 

That solder blob will give you nothing but trouble.  It will not be easy to file and will clog your file which will need frequent cleaning.  If it is not properly soldered the wrapper will become detached during the filing process and will spring apart.

 

May I suggest you try a larger soldering iron or a propane torch?  The larger the scale the more metal is involved and the more heat is required.  I find that for Gauge 0 a 125 watt iron is usually large enough but for Gauge One I use a Sievert propane torch with a small burner.  If properly heated the solder should flow into the joint and not need any filing.  As I am sure you know, the surfaces to be soldered should be clean and a suitable flux used. 

 

Chris Turnbull   

[Florence Locomotive Works]

8 hours ago, Chris Turnbull said:

 

That solder blob will give you nothing but trouble.  It will not be easy to file and will clog your file which will need frequent cleaning.  If it is not properly soldered the wrapper will become detached during the filing process and will spring apart.

 

May I suggest you try a larger soldering iron or a propane torch?  The larger the scale the more metal is involved and the more heat is required.  I find that for Gauge 0 a 125 watt iron is usually large enough but for Gauge One I use a Sievert propane torch with a small burner.  If properly heated the solder should flow into the joint and not need any filing.  As I am sure you know, the surfaces to be soldered should be clean and a suitable flux used. 

 

Chris Turnbull   

I already am using a propane torch, however I have trouble with the solder refusing to spread itself out. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn’t, I think I will have a go redoing it today.

 

thank you,

 

 

Douglas

[Lacathedrale]

Clean the surfaces with a fibreglass brush and then apply lots of liquid flux (Carr's Green Flux or plumbers flux paste)

[Florence Locomotive Works]

1 hour ago, Lacathedrale said:

Clean the surfaces with a fibreglass brush and then apply lots of liquid flux (Carr's Green Flux or plumbers flux paste)

Yes I think that might solve the problem, the brass seems to come coated in some sort of lacquer which you have to scrape off. I made an attempt at doing this but probably missed a spot.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Heres a shot of the progress so far, nowhere near finished but getting there.

 

Whilst I still have yet to order the wheels I am also now on the hunt for a Gauge 1 LNWR Webb chimney casting, if anybody knows a trader who sells them do say.

 

 

 

Any plans to make the engine live steam have been stopped for reasons relating to the design of boiler, so I will continue with the electric strategy. As I used Meccano angle brackets for the frame stretchers, (a better idea than most would think) I can also bolt a standard 1990s era Meccano motor onto one of these frames and use brass Meccano gears for the gearbox. The only problem is that even with gears I don't know if the motor will be powerful enough, and if it isn't then I have another plan.

 

Douglas

Edited September 2, 2021 by Florence Locomotive Works

[Lacathedrale]

45 minutes ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Yes I think that might solve the problem, the brass seems to come coated in some sort of lacquer which you have to scrape off. I made an attempt at doing this but probably missed a spot.

 

The "laquer" is most likely just oxide, it needs to be gleaming. The flux is used to stop the build-up of oxide while you're soldering and is non-negotiable. You need a very tight join indeed if you want capiliary action to fill those joints...

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Smokebox door mostly finished, still needs a dart though. Currently light coat of black is temporary.

 

Photos may make it look a bit wonky.

 

 

 

Douglas

[Chris Turnbull]

Just got back after a few days away so apologies for the delay in replying.

 

I agree with all that has been said.  There are three things needed for a good solder joint - enough heat, spotless metal and flux which should stop the metal oxidising, all of which have been said already.  If you are using a propane torch then you need to really clean the surfaces.  A fibreglass brush is good but I would also use some emery or wet-and-dry paper.   As Lacathedrale says, It [the brass] needs to be gleaming.  Be generous with the flux and try again.

 

Chris Turnbull

[Florence Locomotive Works]

A lot has been achieved in the past few days.

 

On Monday as I had the day off I devised a prototype geartrain using the Meccano motor, and yesterday evening the engine made its first powered runs along the floor as it doesn’t have flanged wheels yet.

Now I know by modern standards this is an incredibly crude geartrain, but I am building to the standards of the 1900s, so I don’t mind the noise.

 

Here are a few photos. 

 

 

 

 

 

There is still a lot of work to do, like moving the batteries from atop the boiler to the tender. The motor will also probably go inside the cab rather than outside.

 

 

Douglas

Edited September 8, 2021 by Florence Locomotive Works

[ikcdab]

Excellent stuff. I love what you are doing. It's so good to see someone branching out like this. 

One point, the gauge isn't really "extinct" if they are two other layouts and you are actively building in it. Maybe "endangered"!!

Ian c

[Florence Locomotive Works]

1 hour ago, ikcdab said:

Excellent stuff. I love what you are doing. It's so good to see someone branching out like this. 

One point, the gauge isn't really "extinct" if they are two other layouts and you are actively building in it. Maybe "endangered"!!

Ian c

Thanks Ian, I suppose critically endangered might be good as only one of the layouts is permanent. 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Hello all,

 

Big update.

 

The engine has changed shape in a very significant way.

 

For a while now I have been wanting a model of a PLM "Coupe Vent" or "windcutter" locomotive, motivated by my seeing one in 2017. And after much deliberation I found it would be possible to make my engine quite easily into a semblance of one of these engines. This has been carried out but is still in the very early stages with none of the trim pieces having been attached or shaped fully.

 

 

Here is a photo of some of the progress.

 

 

 

And here is the prototype, preserved at Cite Du Train in Mulhouse, France. This is a larger C class, designed by Charles Baudry for the PLM. I believe they are 4 cylinder compounds with and extremely long piston rod, which makes the valve gear look strange.

 

 

The front bogie has also been remade, pictures coming soon.

 

Douglas

[sncf231e]

An 0 gauge coarse scale version of the "Coupe Vent" was made last year in French in small numbers:

 

 

Regards

Fred

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Smokebox door fitted along with the “wedges” that proceed informer of the boiler fittings, along with the new pointed spectacle plate. This was attached with JB Qwik, but the SB door is soldered.

 

 

 

 

Heres a shot of the new front bogie. The frames have yet to be profiled and I think the Meccano stretcher might get replaced.

 

 

Douglas