Modifying the old Hornby Gresley teak coaches (And repainting the new ones!)

[Captain_Mumbles]

Gday all!

I get lost a lot of nights on the Steve Banks site and found tranquility in collecting the old teak coaches to modify and paint them. I turn them into brake vans by rebuilding some of the side body detail and sometimes I just disassemble and paint them. Detail specifics aside, the only thing I wish I could change is the window glazing to something more flush but I haven't thought of a way to do that yet.

There are a lot of inaccuracies but I think its just for the charm of it all.

 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Captain_Mumbles
typos

[Captain_Mumbles]

One was turned into an extremely brake, brake coach from one of the pictures I found on the Steve Banks Site.

 

Another thing that makes a massive difference is just doing a basic paint job to the interior. You can do a really quick job but it will make a big change to the way it all looks.

 

[chris p bacon]

Excellent, another who realises what you can do with the Hornby shorties. 

 

I've used a few to make masters for some resin parts.  I've also tried to mill out the rear around the windows to improve the look of the glazing. I used a milling bit in a pillar drill and it showed promise but you would have to reduce the coach to the sides only to utilise that method. I have been looking at another method where the coach body is kept in one piece and stood upright and a sanding drum is held in the pillar drill, it 'sort of' works but was a bit ragged.

 

If you look on lner.info  forum https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2443    Atlantic 3279 who is @gr.king on here has done loads of conversions of them.

[Mark Dickerson]

Great - which method of "teaking" did you use?

[gr.king]

One thing to watch out for when lining around the windows (you'll kick me for this) - there should be no yellow lining along the top and bottom edges of the window apertures, the lining should be only down the vertical edges, and only if those edges are not adjacent to the edge of a doorway.

Lovely re-building and teaking though.

Edited August 14, 2021 by gr.king

[Sylvian Tennant]

Hello there

 

I love what you've done, I made up a short rake of Hornby Teaks a few years ago (with the intention of going back to them once my garden railway bug wears off) made with a combination of MJT and Dart castings added to the under frames and a few other bits. They're on my blog somewhere. I really look forward to seeing what you do going forward.

 

Flush windows, or their close approximation can be gotten from SE Finecast for old Hornby teaks. They're vacuum form mind and getting them to fit was a slight pain but the overall effect is an improvement.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Sylvian Tennant

[Captain_Mumbles]

6 hours ago, gr.king said:

One thing to watch out for when lining around the windows (you'll kick me for this) - there should be no yellow lining along the top and bottom edges of the window apertures, the lining should be only down the vertical edges, and only if those edges are not adjacent to the edge of a doorway.

Lovely re-building and teaking though.

I noticed this just last week!!! Dahhhh!

I did just pack them up into a box and put them out of sight! However I thought it looked like no lining around the windows. Honestly though I do believe it needs something on that piping, but maybe just a lighter shade of brown/orange to highlight the bead around the window for the sunlight and not bright cream like I was.

 

[Captain_Mumbles]

9 hours ago, Mark Dickerson said:

Great - which method of "teaking" did you use?

I used Game workshop shades like Sepia, the crimson, and the flesh shades. As a light coat to darken it a bit. Then I used wet palette and mixed orange, and yellows, and started painting grains in the panels starting from cold on the outside (darker), and hot going towards the inside (lighter). This looks ridiculous at first but once dry after a few hours, add the shades again. Different panels with different shades, and different intensity to create the checker board look. Gloss clear, satin clear, and flat clear over the top in mottled finish varied between the coaches so they arent all the same. As it goes around the Layout you will get this shiny but also kind of not reflection in the wagon sides that looks great...

Edited August 14, 2021 by Captain_Mumbles

[Captain_Mumbles]

Another cheap and simple mod that makes a big difference is adding torpedo vents to the roofs. Not many needed on the full brakes or above the luggage so doesnt always take that long either.

 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Captain_Mumbles

[Captain_Mumbles]

I wanted to treat myself to a nice pressie one day and ordered a new tool Gresley sleeping coach and was really disappointed with the teak artwork... what the hell!

A pic of the factory artwork versus an old repainted one, and how the sleeping coach looked after painting. These new high detail coaches dont always come apart though and I broke the last two getting them apart. They may need to be kept together and lots of masking.

[Hilux5972]

5 hours ago, Captain_Mumbles said:

I wanted to treat myself to a nice pressie one day and ordered a new tool Gresley sleeping coach and was really disappointed with the teak artwork... what the hell!

A pic of the factory artwork versus an old repainted one, and how the sleeping coach looked after painting. These new high detail coaches dont always come apart though and I broke the last two getting them apart. They may need to be kept together and lots of masking.

The first release of the new tooled Gresleys were fantastic with the teak paintwork, the 2nd release with the grey roof as you bought seemed to be trying to cheapen the model and as such the teak finish seriously suffered. The latest versions are back to their great look. Your old tooling models look miles better with the new paint scheme. 

[gr.king]

Something you can consider including as a correct feature when rebuilding to create a brake-end vehicle is the narrower width of the brake section. There's enough thickness to the Margate / Railroad bodies to allow you to inset the sides of the brake portion relative to the roof, when reassembling the body parts, and there's even more scope for doing so and still getting a strong joint at the eaves if you slip in a thin full-width ceiling between tops of sides and the roof. It isn't particularly hard work to scrape a rebate into the upper half of each solebar to allow the bottom edges of the sides to sit further in if re-using the original floor / underframe. The clip-in body ends file down in width easily, although the outermost vertical beading usually has to be reinstated slightly further in.

[Captain_Mumbles]

11 hours ago, gr.king said:

Something you can consider including as a correct feature when rebuilding to create a brake-end vehicle is the narrower width of the brake section. There's enough thickness to the Margate / Railroad bodies to allow you to inset the sides of the brake portion relative to the roof, when reassembling the body parts, and there's even more scope for doing so and still getting a strong joint at the eaves if you slip in a thin full-width ceiling between tops of sides and the roof. It isn't particularly hard work to scrape a rebate into the upper half of each solebar to allow the bottom edges of the sides to sit further in if re-using the original floor / underframe. The clip-in body ends file down in width easily, although the outermost vertical beading usually has to be reinstated slightly further in.

It think I have seen this. In some photos you can see a distinct shadow although I only thought it was on some of them? Or just the one with the really long baggage compartment?

Sorry I don't know all that much about these coaches but I find them all fascinating especially when I find a new one to try and build.

[gr.king]

All of the Gresley vehicles to LNER standard design had all or most of the length of the brake portions narrower than the passenger carrying portion, there being a sharp "step" in the body width at the point of transition, hence the shadow in some photographs. The full brakes had narrower bodies overall.

Pre-group GNR brake-end passenger carriages, if I remember correctly, had uniform "brake van" width for their full length.

The exact width figures depend on the dates of construction and the intended operating routes.

As well as the Gresley bogies usually modelled by the RTR manufacturers there was a fascinating variety of other types, along with variations to underframe trussing and underframe fittings over the years.

[Captain_Mumbles]

24 minutes ago, gr.king said:

All of the Gresley vehicles to LNER standard design had all or most of the length of the brake portions narrower than the passenger carrying portion, there being a sharp "step" in the body width at the point of transition, hence the shadow in some photographs. The full brakes had narrower bodies overall.

Pre-group GNR brake-end passenger carriages, if I remember correctly, had uniform "brake van" width for their full length.

The exact width figures depend on the dates of construction and the intended operating routes.

As well as the Gresley bogies usually modelled by the RTR manufacturers there was a fascinating variety of other types, along with variations to underframe trussing and underframe fittings over the years.

That is fascinating. I don't know how, I took that as the exception rather than the norm. Now that is going to need some careful cutting to keep the paint work and I wonder what to do with the end part..

[jessy1692]

12 hours ago, Captain_Mumbles said:

That is fascinating. I don't know how, I took that as the exception rather than the norm. Now that is going to need some careful cutting to keep the paint work and I wonder what to do with the end part..

Interesting, I'm no expert in them at all but have always liked the old Hornby coaches as a model. Would the narrow brake sections just have been a cost saving measure when building the real ones? Surely it couldn't have saved much? 

Certainly learned something new today.

 

Top work on your models Captain!

All the best

James

[Dunsignalling]

3 hours ago, jessy1692 said:

Interesting, I'm no expert in them at all but have always liked the old Hornby coaches as a model. Would the narrow brake sections just have been a cost saving measure when building the real ones? Surely it couldn't have saved much? 

Certainly learned something new today.

 

Top work on your models Captain!

All the best

James

It would have had no cost saving, indeed, it would have created extra complication at the point of narrowing.

 

The purpose was to accommodate the guard's lookouts whilst keeping the overall width of the vehicle uniform and within gauge.

 

I recently obtained four of these coaches for the princely sum of £20 the lot but am beginning to realise they probably won't be enough.....

 

John

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

16 hours ago, Captain_Mumbles said:

That is fascinating. I don't know how, I took that as the exception rather than the norm. Now that is going to need some careful cutting to keep the paint work and I wonder what to do with the end part..

I think the best answer is to "sacrifice" one brake coach as a donor for any odd sections that might need to be created. That will also give you a couple of "spare" ends on which to experiment with narrowing methods. 

 

In my own case, the coaches will be finished in late-1950s BR maroon, so my base models don't even need to match. However, the teak ones are much in the majority second-hand due to their inclusion in so many sets and train packs over the decades. A big help when searching for cheap conversion fodder!

 

Good work, it's a great pleasure to see someone working out the "ways and means" for themselves and accumulating prototype knowledge as they go, it's what the hobby is (or should be) all about, IMHO.

 

Thanks, too, for rekindling my interest in such conversions, my plans for which have been side-tracked in favour of less interesting tasks for far too long! 

 

John  

[Captain_Mumbles]

4 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I think the best answer is to "sacrifice" one brake coach as a donor for any odd sections that might need to be created. That will also give you a couple of "spare" ends on which to experiment with narrowing methods. 

 

In my own case, the coaches will be finished in late-1950s BR maroon, so my base models don't even need to match. However, the teak ones are much in the majority second-hand due to their inclusion in so many sets and train packs over the decades. A big help when searching for cheap conversion fodder!

 

Good work, it's a great pleasure to see someone working out the "ways and means" for themselves and accumulating prototype knowledge as they go, it's what the hobby is (or should be) all about, IMHO.

 

Thanks, too, for rekindling my interest in such conversions, my plans for which have been side-tracked in favour of less interesting tasks for far too long! 

 

John  

They are getting expensive and stock seems to be drying up in Australia.

[Captain_Mumbles]

On 16/08/2021 at 04:52, gr.king said:

Something you can consider including as a correct feature when rebuilding to create a brake-end vehicle is the narrower width of the brake section. There's enough thickness to the Margate / Railroad bodies to allow you to inset the sides of the brake portion relative to the roof, when reassembling the body parts, and there's even more scope for doing so and still getting a strong joint at the eaves if you slip in a thin full-width ceiling between tops of sides and the roof. It isn't particularly hard work to scrape a rebate into the upper half of each solebar to allow the bottom edges of the sides to sit further in if re-using the original floor / underframe. The clip-in body ends file down in width easily, although the outermost vertical beading usually has to be reinstated slightly further in.

Now that I see it, I can't un see it. And I have also noticed that the sides are flatter. This means it is feasable to make them just out of styrene without trying to re use the bottom panels under the windows that is rolled under.

A question though, for lack of diagrams and photos... where would the step be on the coach with the longer brake compartment?? As it seems like it would be placed somewhere in between the last large window and first double door of the brake compartment with the bottom panels with piping needing to be split and somehow make it look factory.

Hmmmmm.

 

[jwealleans]

The brake compartment starts where the toplights (windows at the top of the sides) begin, so that's where the step would be.  It's easier to work out at the compartment side, you can tell from the panelling where the passenger accommodation (full width) stops and the van area begins.

[Darryl Tooley]

3 hours ago, Captain_Mumbles said:

where would the step be on the coach with the longer brake compartment??

Typically, the narrow section started with the first pair of double doors.

 

 

Dennis Seabrook Collection/LNER Society

 

 

D

[gr.king]

Without a diagram immediately to hand I would have instinctively suggested the first door post too, for that sort of side layout.

[jwealleans]

Good picture here showing a vehicle in preservation and the transition between the two body widths.

 

If you can find one of the diagram booklets a number of different societies publish that'll be your best guide.

 

 

[MikeTrice]

One of mine: