Signal Box Block Shelf Equipment

[WillCav]

Hi all,

 

I'm trying to understand what equipment is likely to be on the block shelf for the semaphore box I want to model.  The actual location is Cheltenham Spa Malvern Road West SB built 1908 but modelled 1948.

 

This is what I think it should be - could you let me know where I've got it wrong please.

 

1. There is Absolute Block each way so I need a block machines and a unique bell towards each end of the shelf

 

2. Closure switch somewhere in the middle as box closed out on Sundays with trains still running

 

3. Track circuit indications near the associated signal levers

 

4. Slot / inner distant / outer distant on/off stacked indicators by each distant lever

 

5. No other indications where a signal is visible from the box

 

6. Arm repeat and Lamp repeat by signals not visible from the box

 

7. Electric Release buttons on front of shelf by signals with electric lever locks

 

Does all this look about right? Anything I've missed? 

 

The thing I'm most confused about is whether a signal could have arm repeat without lamp repeat or vice versa.

 

Thanks

 

Will

[RailWest]

20 minutes ago, WillCav said:

 

20 minutes ago, WillCav said:

 

>>>Track circuit indications near the associated signal levers....

 

...or FPL or point levers depending upon the function of the TC, or even none at all if the box had an illuminated diagram.

 

>>>Electric Release buttons on front of shelf by signals with electric lever locks...

.......or any other levers with electric locks such as FPLs or points

 

>>>whether a signal could have arm repeat without lamp repeat or vice versa....

 

Yes, you could have an AR or LR or both as necessary.

 

>>>There is Absolute Block each way so I need a block machines and a unique bell towards each end of the shelf....... Closure switch somewhere in the middle as box closed out on Sundays with trains still running......

 I would suggest that, certainly in later years, more likely to have the block instruments and bells closer to the middle, with the closing switch in-between them. That way, the signalman can accept from one box and offer to the next box without having to walk about from one end of the frame to the other.

 

[iands]

Might there also be a "block telephone" working to each 'box either side?

[RailWest]

1 minute ago, iands said:

Might there also be a "block telephone" working to each 'box either side?

Probably quite a few telephones, but more likely on a wall somewhere.

[WillCav]

Thanks Railwest and Iands.

 

Still a bit confused about LR and AR - when might you have one and not the other?

 

Good idea about moving the Block bells inwards - there would be lots of offering on due to boxes being close together.

 

Thanks again

 

Will

[5BarVT]

59 minutes ago, WillCav said:

Hi all,

 

I'm trying to understand what equipment is likely to be on the block shelf for the semaphore box I want to model.  The actual location is Cheltenham Spa Malvern Road West SB built 1908 but modelled 1948.

 

This is what I think it should be - could you let me know where I've got it wrong please.

 

1. There is Absolute Block each way so I need a block machines and a unique bell towards each end of the shelf

 

2. Closure switch somewhere in the middle as box closed out on Sundays with trains still running

 

3. Track circuit indications near the associated signal levers

 

4. Slot / inner distant / outer distant on/off stacked indicators by each distant lever

 

5. No other indications where a signal is visible from the box

 

6. Arm repeat and Lamp repeat by signals not visible from the box

 

7. Electric Release buttons on front of shelf by signals with electric lever locks

 

Does all this look about right? Anything I've missed? 

 

The thing I'm most confused about is whether a signal could have arm repeat without lamp repeat or vice versa.

 

Thanks

 

Will

 

Terminology my dear boy, this is the GWR, and you at a Reading sub office. :-)

Block Instrument, Block Switch, Block Bell, Plunger (or Lock Plunger) . . .

Agree with RailWest about track indications on the diagram or separate indicators.  I don’t know if there were rules about how many track before they were put on the diagram.

Things missing that I can think of: emergency release plunger for facing points locked by track circuit; point indicators (N/R/wrong) possibly, NALDERs (cut outs for the power supplies) and dying pig (annunciator) (a trembler bell) if provided.

The block diagram was drawn out but I can’t remember if it had a separate / number or whether it was just one of the /10s.  /9 seems to be indications and lists what signals were indicated/lamped.  Lamps could be grouped.

My recollections are of EKs being wooden sat on the shelf, single GKs being Bakelite on the front face, multiple being on a board on top of the shelf.  What I don’t know is when the Bakelite indicators came in.  There might have been brass case equivalents before that.

There was the P.O. Delay Relay in a tin case (LZR) for any lever with a reverse lock (points) so that you could plunge and release then get behind the lever without the lock dropping: I think that was probably downstairs, not on the shelf (ask GX or Mac).
Paul.

[iands]

44 minutes ago, RailWest said:

Probably quite a few telephones, but more likely on a wall somewhere.

I suppose different companies/regions may well adopt slightly different practices, but yes, several telephones and/or "circuit telephones" (omnibus) would be provided on the "back wall", but "block phones" were usually found on the block shelf. Depending on the actual date/period in question, SPTs may also be on the block shelf. 

[5BarVT]

19 minutes ago, WillCav said:

Still a bit confused about LR and AR - when might you have one and not the other?

Gut feel is LR if you can’t see it or it’s backlight, AR only where you need it in a circuit e.g for One Acceptance Block.

Paul.

[WillCav]

32 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

 

Terminology my dear boy, this is the GWR, and you at a Reading sub office. :-)

Block Instrument, Block Switch, Block Bell, Plunger (or Lock Plunger) . . .

Agree with RailWest about track indications on the diagram or separate indicators.  I don’t know if there were rules about how many track before they were put on the diagram.

...

Sorry for the terminology Paul, I should know better! 

 

Only 3 track circuits so I'll assume not in the diagram - none over pointwork so no plungers needed for points/ FPLs.

 

Iands, All the home signals are close to the box so I'm assuming no SPTs - good point about circuit and block phones.

 

Thanks again

 

Will

 

[bécasse]

I certainly remember seeing in the 1960s diagrams where track-circuit occupancy (or rather non-occupancy) was indicated by eye-ball indicators rather than lamps. What I can't now remember is whether any of them were in ex-GWR boxes but it seems likely.

[5BarVT]

Bécasse

I think I have seen photos of GWR boxes with eyeball indicators, but can’t immediately find one!

 

WillCav

You will still need plungers for levers with locks, just not emergency releases.  I don’t think SRS diagrams show locked levers other than block releases.  For example, at Malvern and East there is a 5T which will be in signal 5 but there is no L shown on 5. So at West there would be a lock on 3 (LCR) and 29 (interlocking lever, based on 29T).  35 doesn’t show block release but as the line is tracked throughout, I wonder if 35 had a lever lock that proved E3AT.  My feeling is that 33 wouldn’t prove 29T as the loop was permissive. Only proved clear a time of direction reversal in 29.

Looking at pictures in Vaughan’s Great Western Signalling there are brass plungers prior to the Bakelite ones and it also reminded me that if there was a plunger and an indicator, the indicator had to be mounted above the shelf.

 

Paul.

[Harlequin]

13 hours ago, bécasse said:

I certainly remember seeing in the 1960s diagrams where track-circuit occupancy (or rather non-occupancy) was indicated by eye-ball indicators rather than lamps. What I can't now remember is whether any of them were in ex-GWR boxes but it seems likely.

According to SRS Signalling Paper No. 8, Challow was installed with "eyeballs" in 1932 and lasted until the late '60s. (The idea was that they would consume less battery power than lamps.)

It's possible that the system was also trialled at Totnes between 1931 and 1943.

 

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, iands said:

Might there also be a "block telephone" working to each 'box either side?

Very much a latter day idea in my experience.  At the period the real 'box was open the 'phones would have been circuit (selective ringing) 'phones on the back wall (probably near the desk) and I would think probably at least three circuits and maybe also a Control 'phone as well - Modelu have just introduced some quite good looking representations of circuit 'phones.

 

The block instruments (two) and block bells (two - different shapes) will be towards the middle of the block shelf and the closing switch will probably be off to one side but the position of them tended to vary a bit.  Signal repeaters were normally separate from lamp repeaters and were on the shelf above, or near to above the lever which worked the signal they applied to.  Lamp repeaters would again be somewhere near the lever working the signal they applied to.  I don't know if the 'box had an illuminated diagram (officially deendent on the number of trach circuits - 5 or more and there would be an illuminated diagram, fewer than 5 and individual 'banner type' indicators would be used mounted on the front of the block shelf.

 

as already noted by 'Railwest' plungers for electric locks would also be mounted on teh front of the block shelf.  The 'scissors' pattern block shelf supports were often used for a few detonators clipped to them at the end of the shelf nearest the door.  There would also probably be a hand lamp kept a handy on the shelf nearest to a window that could be opened so thus at, or near, the end of the shelf.  if there wasn't a wall clock then one of teh small brass cased 'barrel' clocjks might be kept on the block shelf.

 

The pics below were taken on a heritage railway with single lines so there are no block instruments but otherwise the shelf layout and equipment is fairly standard (G)WR.  The first picture shows reasonably clearly the plungers for electric locks plus the small rectangular emergency releases on the front of the shelf, arm repeaters (red segments),  a couple of other indicators (above the arm repeaters), a block bell with a tapper key (unusual where token working is involved), a Bardic Lamp (probably out of period for Malvern Road), and two lamp repeaters at the far end.  the shelf is fixed in an unusual way so ignore that bit. Illuminated diagram.

 

 

 The second photo was taken in another 'box on the same railway and is again a preservation era creation but typical of many (G)WR 'boxes and shows some detail of items on the shelf.  reading from left to right there is a lamp repeater, a 'Church' attern block bell wiy thout a tapper key (so used with a token instrument), three indicators - the first is unusual for older 'boxes as it refers to (signal box) power supply, then two slot repeaters,  a circuit 'phone (awkward to use when ona block shelf - you can tell that it was an S&T bloke who planned its position (sorry Ian) but it's probably there for use when switching in or out,  a 'tall dome' (I think) block bell, and the block switch is right at the end.

 

 

 

 

We're again in the second box but a much wider few.  Apologies for the chap gazing at the diagram - a Signal Engineer ona  busman's holiday (but Kevin is a good bloke so I'll say no more).  You'll by now recognise most thinsg but this view does show how the blockshelf is suspened using those 'scissors' patter metal strips and the nearest one has three detonators and some 'Workman/Disconnected' labels ((which were usually kept on the handle of a spare lever. 

 

 

 

Finally very much a work in progress at the time I took this photo but it does show very clearly how the block shelf is suspended from the roof rafters.  There are a couple of circuit 'phones on the wall at extreme left.

 

 

 Hope this will help a bit.

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Gut feel is LR if you can’t see it or it’s backlight, AR only where you need it in a circuit e.g for One Acceptance Block.

Paul.

There was usually an arm repeater for a Home Signal visible from the 'box if there was Home Normal proving in the block circuit and the same if course for the distant. (The GWR used distant arm 'on' proving in its block circuits long before Home Normal proving was thought of). 

 

Lamp repeaters in my experience of Western 'boxes were only provided if the light could not be seen from the 'box in normal weather conditions.  At one time, and it might well have changed because the Regulations were altered, lamp repeaters were not provided on the (G)WR if the signal lamp concerned could be seen from another 'box when it was not visible from the 'box which worked it.

[St Enodoc]

14 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Very much a latter day idea in my experience.  At the period the real 'box was open the 'phones would have been circuit (selective ringing) 'phones on the back wall (probably near the desk) and I would think probably at least three circuits and maybe also a Control 'phone as well - Modelu have just introduced some quite good looking representations of circuit 'phones.

 

The block instruments (two) and block bells (two - different shapes) will be towards the middle of the block shelf and the closing switch will probably be off to one side but the position of them tended to vary a bit.  Signal repeaters were normally separate from lamp repeaters and were on the shelf above, or near to above the lever which worked the signal they applied to.  Lamp repeaters would again be somewhere near the lever working the signal they applied to.  I don't know if the 'box had an illuminated diagram (officially deendent on the number of trach circuits - 5 or more and there would be an illuminated diagram, fewer than 5 and individual 'banner type' indicators would be used mounted on the front of the block shelf.

 

as already noted by 'Railwest' plungers for electric locks would also be mounted on teh front of the block shelf.  The 'scissors' pattern block shelf supports were often used for a few detonators clipped to them at the end of the shelf nearest the door.  There would also probably be a hand lamp kept a handy on the shelf nearest to a window that could be opened so thus at, or near, the end of the shelf.  if there wasn't a wall clock then one of teh small brass cased 'barrel' clocjks might be kept on the block shelf.

 

The pics below were taken on a heritage railway with single lines so there are no block instruments but otherwise the shelf layout and equipment is fairly standard (G)WR.  The first picture shows reasonably clearly the plungers for electric locks plus the small rectangular emergency releases on the front of the shelf, arm repeaters (red segments),  a couple of other indicators (above the arm repeaters), a block bell with a tapper key (unusual where token working is involved), a Bardic Lamp (probably out of period for Malvern Road), and two lamp repeaters at the far end.  the shelf is fixed in an unusual way so ignore that bit. Illuminated diagram.

 

 

 The second photo was taken in another 'box on the same railway and is again a preservation era creation but typical of many (G)WR 'boxes and shows some detail of items on the shelf.  reading from left to right there is a lamp repeater, a 'Church' attern block bell wiy thout a tapper key (so used with a token instrument), three indicators - the first is unusual for older 'boxes as it refers to (signal box) power supply, then two slot repeaters,  a circuit 'phone (awkward to use when ona block shelf - you can tell that it was an S&T bloke who planned its position (sorry Ian) but it's probably there for use when switching in or out,  a 'tall dome' (I think) block bell, and the block switch is right at the end.

 

 

 

 

We're again in the second box but a much wider few.  Apologies for the chap gazing at the diagram - a Signal Engineer ona  busman's holiday (but Kevin is a good bloke so I'll say no more).  You'll by now recognise most thinsg but this view does show how the blockshelf is suspened using those 'scissors' patter metal strips and the nearest one has three detonators and some 'Workman/Disconnected' labels ((which were usually kept on the handle of a spare lever. 

 

 

 

Finally very much a work in progress at the time I took this photo but it does show very clearly how the block shelf is suspended from the roof rafters.  There are a couple of circuit 'phones on the wall at extreme left.

 

 

 Hope this will help a bit.

 

 

 

Excellent Mike, as always. That bloke with his hand resting directly on the lever handle without a cloth will get a roasting though...

 

Proper question - where would lever collars be kept when not in use?

[5BarVT]

6 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Excellent Mike, as always. That bloke with his hand resting directly on the lever handle without a cloth will get a roasting though...

 

Proper question - where would lever collars be kept when not in use?

On a spare lever (if there was one) or on a (home made?) hook from the shelf supports.  An example with two collars is just below the dets in Mike’s ‘errant hand’ photo.

Paul.

On reflection, the hook may be a bit of No.8 galvanised bonding wire obtained from the lineman.

Edited August 20, 2021 by 5BarVT
Wire source.

[St Enodoc]

28 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

On a spare lever (if there was one) or on a (home made?) hook from the shelf supports.  An example with two collars is just below the dets in Mike’s ‘errant hand’ photo.

Paul.

On reflection, the hook may be a bit of No.8 galvanised bonding wire obtained from the lineman.

Thanks Paul. I took those to be for when the S&T "disconnected workman" was working on the locking. I had in mind the ones that the signalman would use to remind him of the presence of a train - would the same ones be used in both cases?

[5BarVT]

32 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Thanks Paul. I took those to be for when the S&T "disconnected workman" was working on the locking. I had in mind the ones that the signalman would use to remind him of the presence of a train - would the same ones be used in both cases?

Sorry, just looked at the shape, didn’t read the label!

There are both types on the hook.
The ‘top’ one with the writing has a wire loop at the back and, as you say, is used by the lineman to say ‘don’t use’.

 ‘Behind’ that (the squashed doughnut) is the signalman’s collar.

Paul.

[St Enodoc]

18 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

Sorry, just looked at the shape, didn’t read the label!

There are both types on the hook.
The ‘top’ one with the writing has a wire loop at the back and, as you say, is used by the lineman to say ‘don’t use’.

 ‘Behind’ that (the squashed doughnut) is the signalman’s collar.

Paul.

Ah, got it! Thanks.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Thanks Paul. I took those to be for when the S&T "disconnected workman" was working on the locking. I had in mind the ones that the signalman would use to remind him of the presence of a train - would the same ones be used in both cases?

No - two different things.  The larger cast steel red- painted lever collars are the 'operating dept' lever collars used for traffic purposes such as reminders not to work a particular lever etc (and as egg cups when you've got some decent size eggs in a country signal box).   The enamelled 'Workman/Disconnected ' collars are for use when somebody is working on part of the equipment or something has been disconnected (although i have seen ordinary collars sometimes used for that purpose)..

 

It was not at all unusual to find proper hooks on the front edge of the block shelf for the larger cast collars but they could (as far as the ones I have seen are concerned) only hold one lever collar and most 'boxes had a lot more than a couple of hook's worth of collars  hence they finished up on spare or little used levers (apart from one being used as an egg cup and, occasionally, another as a paperweight).

 

Fortunately the WR S&T Dept also supplied an item which might be suitable as a lever collar on a Modeltec frame because when the flame proof single strand wire with yellow coloured insulation was used originally to connect up block shelves and in other installations there were some neat little green 'caps' that went over the end of the insulation next to the bare core and which were presumably to stop the insulation fraying.  Goodness only knows where they are now but I used to use them as collars on Hornby Dublo levers and GEM lever frames.  the last time I w saw any in their proper usage was when we removed various parts of Hallen Marsh Jcn 'box for reinstallation at Tyseley - back in teh 1980s 

[RailWest]

I used to have a red-painted lever collar as a paperweight on the desk in my office - it proved a useful 'talking point' with visitors, until one day some one picked it up, dropped it, and narrowly missed smashing my coffee mug......

 

....so it was superseded in due course by one of those brass domed bells (such as you used to see on reception desks) where you banged the knob on the top to make it ring. Any visitor was ignored then unless I got Call Attention :-)

 

[The bell was a freebie advertising gimmick from one of our suppliers - I still have it here.]

Edited August 20, 2021 by RailWest

[The Stationmaster]

Sorry to digress but I do have a real paperweight in a sort of  'vertically squashed' rail section as its end elevation.  Regrettably when I bought it auction I only gave it a quick glance before bidding so was subsequently mortified to find that the cast-in lettering on the side says 'GNR' and not 'GWR'.   But at least it is a genuine relic and it is extremely useful.    Alas i don't have a GWR pattern lever collar but I do have a couple of standard GWR signal box door keys one of which is a GWR original. 

[bécasse]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Alas i don't have a GWR pattern lever collar but I do have a couple of standard GWR signal box door keys one of which is a GWR original. 

The WR seems to have been quite careless with its signal box keys as I acquired several, including a GWR example, when my late father-in-law, a former bobby on Reading panel, passed on. I also acquired a set of GWR flags (albeit well-used), a number of hand lamps (of which I still have aa well-restored GWR example) and a pilotman's BR(W) arm band.

 

Talking of hand lamps, they would not only be kept by an opening window but, at night, lit and with the red glass already in the lens, and placed with the lens against the wall so that the light couldn't be seen until it was needed. A late friend, a bobby at Feltham in the 1950s, was working a busy night shift when he realised that a train was charging along a head shunt towards a substantial concrete stop clearly under the impression that they had come out onto a parallel running line where indeed a stick was off for an approaching passenger train. He always said that he acted instinctively at the time and just pushed the lamp straight out through the glass window, there was no time to open it. Fortunately the crew saw it and stopped in time. He always reckoned that he was the only person on the railway with a commendation recorded for breaking a signal box window.

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 18/08/2021 at 19:40, WillCav said:

Only 3 track circuits so I'll assume not in the diagram

Separate round Spagnoletti indicators on the blockshelf close to levers locked by the TC.

 

I don't know how the GWR decided on how many track circuits justified an illuminated diagram but on the LMR in the 1960s it was 6 IIRC. I have seen GWR illuminated diagrams with six on them.

 

Regarding indicators and blocks, in 1948 you would find many old ones. In 1966 I took out a combined arm and light repeater made by the LNWR Signal and Electrical department at Stockport works, which closed c1905.

[St Enodoc]

11 hours ago, RailWest said:

I used to have a red-painted lever collar as a paperweight on the desk in my office - it proved a useful 'talking point' with visitors, until one day some one picked it up, dropped it, and narrowly missed smashing my coffee mug......

 

....so it was superseded in due course by one of those brass domed bells (such as you used to see on reception desks) where you banged the knob on the top to make it ring. Any visitor was ignored then unless I got Call Attention :-)

 

[The bell was a freebie advertising gimmick from one of our suppliers - I still have it here.]

On the East Coast route the usual badge of office was an ashtray made from a Deltic piston crown (there were always plenty of those to be had).