Koala Creek Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 (edited) More than a decade ago, while I was still modelling in N scale and researching the Dutch NS 600/2000 series, I ran into the below photo of a 65-DE-19A Whitcomb locomotive during the 1950s. I just loved the atmosphere and and setting, so I stored it in my archive for possible future use ... like many of us, I have a huge archive with these type of photos ... Although I got sidetracked to HOn30 and 009 narrow gauge for a while, I bumped into this humpback locomotive again at the beginning of this year, when PIKO announced that they would be producing a model of the 65-DE-19A Whitcomb. These locomotives were built for the US Army Transportation Corps (USATC) during 1943/44 and were extensively used on the continent after the invasion in Normandy. After the Second World War in Europe had ended, the majority of the 65-DE-19A Whitcombs were shipped back the US, where they were sold through brokers to industrial operators or short lines. About 20 of them remained in Europe , when they were bought by the Dutch Railways. PIKO announced in Nürnberg, that they would be issuing H0 scale models of both the Dutch Railways and USATC versions. As I had done some research on these locomotives already, I reached out to the PIKO's to see if I could assist them in any way and was asked if I could work on the paint scheme & lettering of the USATC version. I happily agreed, as I had gained experience by doing a similar job for the N scale model of the Dutch NS 1300 series by Startrain. Diving into the history of certain locomotives and railways is a great part of the hobby for me. After several iterations with PIKO's design department, the design was finalized and to be honest I am quite happy with the result. They have not been delivered yet, but looking at the first review , it's going to be a fantastic model. I am now waiting for the model to become available in Europe by the end of August or beginning of September. PIKO's model of the 65-DE-19A Whitcomb also received its fair share of attention at the other side of the Atlantic and they have announced that they will also come US versions of the 65-DE-19A Whitcomb by the end of this year. These will not have buffer and the necessary details like pilot steps and uncoupling levers will be added. Depending on the prototype, the side skirt will also be remove, showing the fuel tanks and air reservoirs. This got me thinking and brought me back to that picture of the 65-DE-19A Whitcomb during the 1950s. I did some further digging and it turns out that this is locomotive № 100 of the Allegheny & South Side Railway in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. The A&SS operated on an industrial area extending from South 3rd Street to South 21st Street, along the south bank of the Monongahela River in Pittsburgh. The Oliver Iron & Steel Company was the main shareholder of this short line, with a total trackage of about 8.5 miles. Besides operating for its parent company, the A&SS performed switching services for other big industries like Levinson Steel, the Mackintosh-Hemphill Co. - Garrison Works, and the Republic Steel Dilworth-Porter Division. These services were performed on the tracks of the Pennsylvania Railroad and the Pittsburgh & Lake Erie Railroad. Allegheny & South Side Railway № 100 was built by Whitcomb in March 1944 and served with the USATC as № 8405. After its return to the U.S., the 65-DE19A Whitcomb was acquired by the Lancaster & Chester Railway, where it served as locomotive № 51 until 1950. Via the Mississippi Valley Equipment Co., a dealer, it ended-up with the A&SS as locomotive № 100. The A&SS was dissolved in August 1959, and the line became jointly operated by the PRR and the P&LE. Whether the 65-DE-19A Whitcomb was sold or scrapped is unknown. Looks like I am hooked now and am looking at the possibility of building a shelf layout based on this US prototype ... a first for me. I only have limited space available (not much more than 240 x 60 cm), so the layout will only be based on the A&SS, the PRR and the P&LE operations in the South Side Flats of Pittsburgh. So let's see which part here would give the best possibilities ... Edited August 20, 2021 by Koala Creek 12 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koala Creek Posted August 20, 2021 Author Share Posted August 20, 2021 During the 1950s, the Allegheny & South Side Railway ran switching services from South 3rd Street to South 21st Street, along the south bank of the Monongahela River in Pittsburgh. Besides performing these services for its main share holder, the Oliver Iron & Steel Company, it also performed switching services on behalf of the of the Pennsylvania Railroad (PRR) and the Pittsburgh & Lake Erie Railroad (P&LE), respectively on the tracks between the mentioned streets which were owned by the PRR as their Whitehall Branch, and on side tracks of the P&LE between those same streets. The great Wiki page about the A&SS shows its extensive list of customers between these streets and I realize that it will be hard to model this on the available space. The PRR Whitehall Branch and South 21st Street however rang a bell with me and some further digging shows that John Wright based a Proto 87 layout on the Whitehall Branch. A great series of articles about his "Federal Street" layout can be found in the Railmodel Journal of July, August & September 2005. The below photo shows the track of the Whitehall Branch on South 21st Street. I love the atmosphere and looking at the cars the photo must have been taken during the second half of the 1950. The A&SS was still operational at that time and in my alternative reality, it might have serviced the businesses on South 21st Street as well, together with the PRR. Digging further to see if I can find a track plan of South 21st Street, ... 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdvle Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Koala Creek said: Digging further to see if I can find a track plan of South 21st Street, ... Going to be difficult I suspect. The most obvious source would be the Sanborn Fire Insurance Maps (excellent historical resource, created for evaluating insurance rates so they can offer lots of info on building like the materials used). Unfortunately the 1950s are still covered by copyright so while it may be worth a search you are unlikely to find any online. The best source for out of copyright versions is the Library of Congress, which has many up to about 1920 online - though unfortunately for Pittsburgh they only go to 1906. For your South 21st Street see https://www.loc.gov/item/sanborn07911_012/ Sheets 671 (image 30), 658 (13), and 672 (32) seem a promising start, but there isn't a lot of trackwork at that time and most of what is on south 21st street is housing in that era. (general info - Sanborn maps have the sheet number in bold in the upper right, and then list the number of adjoining sheets around the edges). The Pittsburgh Universities appear to have better collections, but they aren't online (Penn State, Carnegie Mellon). You could perhaps try contacting the libraries, but it may require a local (or a visit in better times) to get access and perhaps a fee. Another potential source would be the ICC valuation maps - maps the the ICC (Interstate Commerce Commission) required all railroads to create from 1915 to 1960 approximately. There is a collection in the US National Archives it appears, but they don't have any online at a quick search - https://www.archives.gov/research/transportation/railroad-valuation though there is an email address on that page that might be worth a try. Beyond that, try finding someone online who is already interested in and researching that railroad - Facebook (sadly) may be a good place to search if you are willing to use Facebook, or look for a historical society that may either have info or be able to put you in touch with someone who is familiar with what you are interested in. The Pennsy historical society is at http://www.prrths.com/ Edited August 20, 2021 by mdvle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbb Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 The Italian company ACME do a nice HO model of the Whitcombs in FS colours of the prototypes that served FS for many years. Saw some in Palermo in 2003, lovely engines, quite 'archaic ' looking , but in a nice way of course. Good luck with your project. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koala Creek Posted August 20, 2021 Author Share Posted August 20, 2021 (edited) Thanks for the suggestions and luckily I have been able to find a map at Historic Pittsburgh. It's from 1935 by the the department of city planning of Pittsburgh and shows the most eastern part of the Whitehall Branch of the PRR including South 21st Street ... although it states the railroad names of predecessors of the PRR branches. From the top left of the map the Whitehall Branch runs parallel to the Monongahela River and the tracks of the P&LE. Just before making a turn to the south onto South 21st Street, it passes the PRR interchange yard (which is known as 21st Street Yard). The photo below from 1938, also from he Historic Pittsburgh site, shows this location. The 21st Street Yard is located behind the P&LE tracks and Whitehall track. The Gimbel Bothers storage warehouse, located at the corner of South 21st Street and Wharton Street, is visible in the background. It then passes further along South 21st Street, with serval sidings for the local businesses, and crosses the double track streetcar line of the Pittsburgh Railways Company (which I do not intend to model) at East Carson Street. Finally it turns to the east again on Mary Street at the Duquesne brewery and runs parallel to the PRR Monongahela Branch, until it joins it near the 30th Street Yard. Below a more detailed overview of the northern part of the Whitehall tracks and sidings on South 21st Street. Via Twitter, I found somebody who had more information about the Allegheny & South Side Railway and photos from the late 1950s of this part of the Whitehall branch on South 21st Street. Malone Plumbing Supply Co., on the corner of South 21st Street and Wharton Street. Looking north towards the Monongahela River. At the back on the right, the Gimel Brothers warehouse, which had a siding going into it. At the back on the left, Levinson Steel with a siding going into the plant. Photo taken at the crossing of South 21st Street and East Carson Street. Photo taken around the same place, but a bit more to the east. In front of Malone Plumbing Supply Co. is B.M. Kramers & Co. Inc. - Pipe, Valves & Fittings. Not quite sure yet what business was located in the building with the bay window. The building on he right housed Jersey Farm Products Co., a food distributor. Photo taken on the corner of South 21st Street and Wrights Way, showing the same buildings on the righthand side of the street and houses on the lefthand side. Same place, but then facing north. On the left Jersey Farm Products Co. and a shop on the other corner of South 21st Street and East Carson Street. On the right hand side the Swift & Co. meet packing house. Further to the back more houses. Photo taken at about he same location, but the from the middle of the street. Same buildings and a better view of the Duquesne brewery with its huge clock. The above is a great starting point, but how best to fit this in a 240 x 60 cm layout and have some interesting switching possibilities as well? Edited August 20, 2021 by Koala Creek 12 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginelane Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 Looks an interesting location and a cool Loco to operate on it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann Marsbar Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 Interesting to look at the current Google Streetview to see how many of those buildings in the B&W photos still survive, particularly the houses on the east side of the road which I would have expected to have gone years ago! https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4287146,-79.9762847,3a,75y,7.61h,79.42t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWENYGezA1fXcGGxSbclX_A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koala Creek Posted August 21, 2021 Author Share Posted August 21, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Johann Marsbar said: ... particularly the houses on the east side of the road which I would have expected to have gone years ago! @Johann Marsbar - Yep, same here. I discovered that the house on the righthand side of this photo is quite famous even ... It featured in the well known 1980s movie "Flashdance" ... Quite helpful, as it give the right colours of the house. Edited August 21, 2021 by Koala Creek Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stivesnick Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 Those pictures are great and cry out to be recreated in model form. As a N gauge modeller, the image below shows how it might fit onto a 1200mm board. In addition to this there are staging tracks at each end. The larger one on the right would take a loco and 3 wagons on the green track. The other track represents another industry as the original plan. Not sure how the line would have been operated, but could the loco been in the middle of the train to enable it to switch spurs in either direction? Each siding could take 1 car so not great. The staging track on the left could be omitted if space was tight but it does provide another location to shunt cars. It would be possible to model the street car tracks on the left hand side, although they would not be operational. Looking at google maps, the street grid is typical of an American city with the main streets spaced 100 yards apart (building edge to building edge). To copy that exactly you would need a bit more space in N, say a 1500mm scenic section. This would allow some of the tracks to take more than one car that would increase operational interest. Hope this is of use. Nick 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koala Creek Posted August 21, 2021 Author Share Posted August 21, 2021 (edited) @stivesnick - Nick, thanks for your input, very helpful. Had a go at it myself this evening, but took a bit of a different approach. I concluded as well that the main streets were 100 yards apart, which is 105 cm in H0 scale. Looking at the available space, I decided to reduce it to 1.00 meters, allowing me to have two blocks on my layout. My main aim is to recreate the atmosphere from the photos and to ensure interesting switching possibilities at the same time, so I took a look at Google Streetview and the old photos from the 1950s to see what I really wanted to have on to the layout. As it is going to be an alternative reality anyway, with the A&SS servicing the businesses on South 21st Street, I decide to reshuffle them a bit and came up with the below (link for larger image). The layout will have buildings at the back and at the front, so that it is clear that it is located in a city. There will however be no building in middel at the front of the layout, to ensure better visibility. In my reality, there used to be a building there, but was recently demolished. There will be a fiddle yard on both sides of the layout and the Swift & Co siding will continue a bit on the fiddle yard on the righthand side, allowing it to take 2 cars instead of one. Might do the same for the sidings of Levinson steel and Gimble Brothers, as they both continue in their respective buildings. I ran into the same switching issue as Nick, with sidings going in both directions, so thought it might be wise to add a runaround track. Looking at the photos, there would have been just enough space available in the middle. So added it to my design below (link for larger image). Any thoughts or suggestions? Edited August 21, 2021 by Koala Creek 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium BR60103 Posted August 22, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 22, 2021 I have this idea that the buildings on the near side could be modelled as if you are looking out of them at the railroad. Just a couple of inches of office/warehouse and a big clean window. The really fussy could model cross-sections of partitions and such. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stivesnick Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 Hi Koala Creek Like your layout ideas. The idea of a disused plot to increase the view of the layout would be a great feature. You could also have the buildings at the front just single story to create the same effect. Looking at the photos and maps again, I agree there would be space to put a run round track in if required. There is another thread in this forum on street running, and there are pictures of locos puling and pushing cars along streets. I think this could add the the shunting "fun" by including operating rules that say you can't leave cars blocking the main streets. One feature that I picked up from the maps, was that the building line was constant along the street. There will no doubt be examples where companies have set their buildings back to allow for a track to be included. Looking forward to see how this will develop. My N gauge version has joined the list of many layouts that I could build when I retire, win the lottery etc. Nick 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdvle Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 (edited) In addition to a disused plot, you could also have the beginning of a building - just some fencing (did they bother with fencing back then? and maybe a foundation. Personally I would be tempted to create 2 non-building lots at the front - just to make it easier to see and perhaps better camera angles if that interests you. Have one empty lot - perhaps with a for sale sign or a coming soon sign (or even a temporary parking lot) - and one lot with the start of construction. I suspect this type of layout is best mocked up, creating some paper/thin cardboard buildings to help judge both access and viewing before committing to something that may end up being not to ones liking. Edited August 22, 2021 by mdvle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koala Creek Posted August 22, 2021 Author Share Posted August 22, 2021 2 hours ago, mdvle said: I suspect this type of layout is best mocked up, creating some paper/thin cardboard buildings to help judge both access and viewing before committing to something that may end up being not to ones liking. Yes, that is what I have in mind as well. Will see if I can draw something in 3D or make a small model of the layout to see if it meets my expectations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koala Creek Posted August 23, 2021 Author Share Posted August 23, 2021 (edited) First try, to make a mock-up in 3D. Agree that it helps to get a better idea of the layout and what is good ... and what not. For example, I am starting with a main street on the left, but narrower street would probably be a better idea. Edited August 23, 2021 by Koala Creek Typo 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted September 13, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 13, 2021 I reckon that low sided wagon with the USATC loco in the second photo is British, as do those in the background. Anyone know where it is? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick_Burman Posted September 13, 2021 Share Posted September 13, 2021 1 hour ago, melmerby said: I reckon that low sided wagon with the USATC loco in the second photo is British, as do those in the background. Anyone know where it is? Believed to have been taken at Ebbw Junction. Cheers NB 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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