GWR Saloon Coaches

[Andy Kirkham]

Here are a couple of photos showing GWR coaches carrying the designation SALOON.

 

https://rcts.zenfolio.com/coaching-stock/gwr/other/hA86FE772#ha86fe976

https://rcts.zenfolio.com/coaching-stock/gwr/other/hA86FE772#ha86fea3d

 

I am wondering what sets Saloon coaches apart from other coaches. Google only returns results for the Super Saloons.

 

One might guess that they have an open layout with armchairs like Pullman cars, but this seems not to be the case as at least one of the above clearly has a corridor, so presumably they had compartments.

 

Were these saloons used in regular traffic, or just for special services?

Edited August 20, 2021 by Andy Kirkham

[Wickham Green too]

Most Railways had Saloons in the late 19th / early 20th Centuries and they could be hired by parties for different purposes : while your two examples may look just like side-corridor coaches, each 'compartment' would have been larger than usual, taking up the space of several of normal size - if not the whole coach length : the side corridor arrangement is, though unusual and they were normally self-contained vehicles.

'Toplight' Dia G43 No.9055 survives on the S.V.R. and there is a contemporary interior shot in one of Jim Russell's tomes.

[ThePipersSon]

I believe that coach is diagram G58 non-descript saloon.

I seem to remember that it was at SVR, but I cannot confirm it.

Tom

[corneliuslundie]

GWR Saloon Diagrams went up to at least G58 as can be seen above and I think there were early ones without Daigrams. They were around for a long time, for example four-wheeled Saloon to Lot 150 (I don't know the diagram) and six-wheeled First Class Saloon No. 700 to G10. Some seem to have had partial corridors linking two or three saloons, and there were also Family Saloons, which I assume had First class for the family and Third for the maid etc. Interestingly, the First Class Saloon of Lot 980 to Diagram G6 looks just like an open First. I do not have the G58 drawing and none of those I do have have full length corridors. But this one at least has Saloons rather than compartments or just open seating.

Hire a Saloon and a horsebox and you are ready to take the family anywhere. Perhaps a flat wagon of some kind for the landau.

Jonathan

 

[Compound2632]

45 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Perhaps a flat wagon of some kind for the landau.

 

An open carriage truck - a passenger-rated vehicle designed for the purpose. Most railways had many. The Midland, for instance, had around one horsebox and one carriage truck for every ten passenger-carrying vehicles.

 

On 20/08/2021 at 13:39, ThePipersSon said:

I believe that coach is diagram G58 non-descript saloon.

 

I believe "non-descript" is "unclassed" - i.e. used for first class or third class as occasion required.

[Miss Prism]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

Perhaps a flat wagon of some kind for the landau.

 

That's what the carriage trucks were for. Here's a posh one.

[BMS]

Interesting - Royal train travelling wrong line?

[Miss Prism]

I think it is approaching Friars Junction on the up main. The down main is obscured by the vegetation on the parapet wall.

 

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, BMS said:

Interesting - Royal train travelling wrong line?

 

There's another line in the foreground, hidden by the bank - down main, up main, down relief, up relief, or something like that. (Beaten to it more authoritatively by @Miss Prism.)

 

I don't think there's anything royal about it - ordinary OCT and aged centre-brake composite - E9?

Edited August 25, 2021 by Compound2632

[Wickham Green too]

I think there may be a fourth track out of sight below the photographer - it looks like the formation has been widened at the far side anyway !

 

The lamps don't look very 'royal' to me ......... though they don't comply with the codes most people would understand ! ( except us on the Southern )

 

Yep - beat me too !

Edited August 25, 2021 by Wickham Green too

[The Johnster]

Carriage trucks eventually evolved into covered carriage trucks, or CCTs.  In the early days the aristocracy would travel aboard their carriages on the carriage trucks, as there was no heating aboard the trains and they had no desire to mix with the middle class hoi polloi in first class; their carriages were more comfortable than the railways’ early passenger stock, and better sprung, cook would provide a hamper for the journey, and there was heating from hot coals beneath the seating. 
 

It must have been quite a sight, Lord Snooty’s dad swaying along top hatted in his landau or whatever, lashed down for safety, maybe accompanied by Lady S under full sail, all bustles and crinolines, with the butler in first class and the rest roughing it in third, with probably a special booked for the luggage.  Whole trainloads of such customers were conveyed to the Highlands for the ‘Glorious 12th’ in order to slaughter grouse, whose only crime was to be palatable with a decent port, all sitting in their own carriages separate from each other.  Magnificent!

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Carriage trucks eventually evolved into covered carriage trucks, or CCTs.  In the early days the aristocracy would travel aboard their carriages on the carriage trucks, as there was no heating aboard the trains and they had no desire to mix with the middle class hoi polloi in first class; their carriages were more comfortable than the railways’ early passenger stock, and better sprung, cook would provide a hamper for the journey, and there was heating from hot coals beneath the seating. 
 

It must have been quite a sight, Lord Snooty’s dad swaying along top hatted in his landau or whatever, lashed down for safety, maybe accompanied by Lady S under full sail, all bustles and crinolines, with the butler in first class and the rest roughing it in third, with probably a special booked for the luggage.  Whole trainloads of such customers were conveyed to the Highlands for the ‘Glorious 12th’ in order to slaughter grouse, whose only crime was to be palatable with a decent port, all sitting in their own carriages separate from each other.  Magnificent!

 

The practice of travelling in one's own carriage on an OCT very quickly fell out of favour as speeds rose. If one wanted exclusivity, the railway company could offer one a family carriage - a saloon, to get back on topic - for a minimum of four first class fares.

 

As to covered carriage trucks (CCTs), they were around from at least the 1860s. If shipping your carriage, you had the option of open or covered, with a surcharge for covered (4s around the turn of the century). CCTs tended to be preferred by carriage builders for the conveyance of ex-works vehicles, especially once the motor car trade started to develop after 1900.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Compound2632

[corneliuslundie]

Yes, I had a memory lapse and couldn't remember the proper term.

About a third of the Saloon Diagrams I have are for Family Carriages. It must have been a fair sized business, even if they were built in penny numbers compared with, for example, non-corridor Thirds. Usually a Saloon area around a table for the family and a compartment for the "staff".

I know one modeller who is planning such a set of vehicles for his layout, representing Lord Something arriving on holiday.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

33 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

I know one modeller who is planning such a set of vehicles for his layout, representing Lord Something arriving on holiday.

 

When the Duke of Devonshire decamped from Chatsworth to Holker for Christmas 1883, he despatched four carriages, paying the supplement for covered carriage trucks, along with 19 horses and 3 dogs - £43/14/6 total fare, from Rowsley to Cark.

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

I think it is approaching Friars Junction on the up main. The down main is obscured by the vegetation on the parapet wall.

 

Definitely on the Up Main approaching Friars Jcn  - a big giveaway is the Poplar Line in the background rising towards Acton Wells Jcn.   In 1920 the GWR listed just over 30 vehicles specifically as Family Carriages (although that photo is obviously from an earlier period). 

 

Nothing like enough lamps or anything else to denote a Royal Train.  

[Compound2632]

Apologies to those who I've bored with this before and to readers outside the UK for whom the link is blocked, but there's an interesting variety of Great Western saloons to be seen here (they're the ones with the big windows), at the start of Henley Regatta week 1899:

 

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-arrival-of-train-load-of-visitors-at-henley-station-1899-online

 

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Nothing like enough lamps or anything else to denote a Royal Train.  

 

.... except for the loco nameplate  - Empress of India !

 

No, I can't read it either, but the link to the picture describes it as a Royal Luggage Train and gives the loco number and name..

[Forward!]

On 26/08/2021 at 10:11, Compound2632 said:

 

When the Duke of Devonshire decamped from Chatsworth to Holker for Christmas 1883, he despatched four carriages, paying the supplement for covered carriage trucks, along with 19 horses and 3 dogs - £43/14/6 total fare, from Rowsley to Cark.

 

That's the equivalent of £5,000 today!

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Forward! said:

That's the equivalent of £5,000 today!

 

Grief yes, I hadn't thought of working that out. But I wonder what the cost of hiring vehicles and drivers for the equivalent move by road would be today?

 

That also makes the old 1d/mile third class rate equivalent to 60p/mile today. At that rate, a Euston - New Street single (113 miles) would be £70 - currently £22.60 or thereabouts.

Edited August 27, 2021 by Compound2632

[corneliuslundie]

Actually you can do that trip for £16 but the anytime standard class fare is £94.40, and the normal off-peak single is £41.80 (just checked on the NR website). But of course our family would be travelling First Class, so the anytime Single fare would be £132.40.

So two First Class adults, say three first class children (I didn't look up the fare but let's say £66.20 each) four Third class servants, plus the horses and brougham . . . Or would it be just four first class fares for everyone? If so a small saving: the servants would be free.

And the same to get back to the metropolis. Though of course they would have started from xxxxx Castle somewhere in the prosperous Home Counties.

Jonathan

[Andy Kirkham]

On 26/08/2021 at 02:50, The Johnster said:

Whole trainloads of such customers were conveyed to the Highlands for the ‘Glorious 12th’ in order to slaughter grouse, whose only crime was to be palatable with a decent port, all sitting in their own carriages separate from each other.  Magnificent!

 

As depicted in these magnificent painting by George Earl: Going North and Coming South, both in the NRM

 

https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/going-north-kings-cross-station-london-9390/view_as/grid/search/makers:george-earl-18241908/page/1

https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/coming-south-perth-station-9389/view_as/grid/search/makers:george-earl-18241908/page/1

[Compound2632]

59 minutes ago, Andy Kirkham said:

https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/coming-south-perth-station-9389/view_as/grid/search/makers:george-earl-18241908/page/1

 

I think the WCJS carriage behind the lady with the straw hat (and others) is probably a 32 ft centre-luggage composite of Richard Bore's design.

[The Johnster]

4 hours ago, Forward! said:

 

That's the equivalent of £5,000 today!

And today's Duke of Devonshire could still easily afford it.

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

..... they would have started from xxxxx Castle somewhere in the prosperous Home Counties.

Contrary to popular opinion, the preposterous Home Counties aren't particularly well studded with castles ...................... so they're more likely to have started at some other class of 4-6-0.

[The Stationmaster]

13 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Contrary to popular opinion, the preposterous Home Counties aren't particularly well studded with castles ...................... so they're more likely to have started at some other class of 4-6-0.

There are a few but there a number of ruined ones as well - which were ruins long before the railway age.