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Paid top dollar last week for a Heljan 33 from a well known shop, plus £32 for decoder, and just spent an hour cleaning the bogies and pickups/wheels . New from a bigger dealer next time.

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47 minutes ago, D08 said:

Paid top dollar last week for a Heljan 33 from a well known shop, plus £32 for decoder, and just spent an hour cleaning the bogies and pickups/wheels . New from a bigger dealer next time.

There's the rub. 'Second Hand' used to mean a lot cheaper than New. A LOT cheaper!!

 

These days, maybe not? :scratchhead: :dontknow:  (depending, of course, on where one shops)

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The thing with second hand models is: it is worth to you whatever you decide to pay for it. If it's something you REALLY want you will be willing to pay over the odds for it.

 

Whenever I buy second hand I expect to undertake repair/restoration work. That, I am afraid, is the nature of the beast! Sorts out the modellers from the boys/girls! :locomotive:

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5 hours ago, jonny777 said:

 

Although, I get a daily email from one shop which sells second hand items. I can currently buy a Bachmann 04 2-8-0 second hand for £87, whereas the closest version brand new would set me back £130. 

 

I think that for a saving of £43 I would not mind spending an hour cleaning the wheels. 

The general thing about selling a model, is that if the seller wants a better price, it needs to be in excellent condition.

If in the case of a retailer, they have to pay someone to bring it up to scratch, then they will need to sell the resulting effort at a higher price.

 

But they do need to bear in mind, possible warranty issues - DOA means they will likely have to deal with it being sent back, unless it was clearly described as non-working.

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Most businesses would find it cheaper to accept a few returns on second hand rather than to attempt more than a cursory inspection. It's expensive to hire and house somebody with the requisite skills to tinker with sick locos, plus your stock would pile up on his workbench.     

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I have purchased dozens of non-runner locomotives from a well known store over the past few years and in most cases either there was nothing wrong with them or a very simple fix to get running.  Some were decoder fitted and analogue running had been disabled,  some were a simple wire connection broken or a loco had been rebuilt with the polarity reversed resulting in no power pickup.  There was a very,  very occasional failure that was not worth fixing but it always amazed me that the store did not have staff to carry out simple troubleshooting to correct an issue and thus double the asking price.   One non-runner,  a late release Hornby Castle class non-runner,  I could find no issue with and yet it was fitted with an ESU sound decoder.  Both analogue and digital running were flawless and yet the loco was listed for GBP48.00  (I paid GBP40.00 after VAT discount).  If the store had correctly tested the loco then the asking price would have been at least three times the price.

 

Such bargains alas are no more,  as it seems that others have realised the value in purchasing a non-runner or as I have seen of late,  even non-runners are listed at premium prices.

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I work to the assumption that any loco that has been owned by someone who is not me will need a bit of fettling by me if I buy it to get it to run smoothly and properly.  Even, in fact especially, 'never used/still in box' etc.  If a loco has been run, then it is best to assume it needs a deep clean and general servicing, and if it is claimed that it has never been run or has had very little use, that the lube grease has solidified even if the outer layers appears to be ok, and it needs a deep clean and general servicing.  In fact, I don't like the coloured grease lubrication and even on brand new models get rid of it and re-lubricate with my usual non--mineral oil, so brand new locos also need a deep clean and general servicing.  There is a pattern developing here...

 

Deep cleaning and general servicing is a good way of ensuring that any loco is in it's best possible condition and giving it's best possible performance, and once done all that is needed is to keep a general eye on it and stay on top of cleaning and maintenance.  There were one or two prima donnas in my fleet, but all my locos now run pretty well and reliably.  I eventually gave up on a Hornby 2721 which would not run reliably no matter how much I deep cleaned and generally serviced it, and in the end re-chassised it with a Bachmann pannier mech, despite this having the wrong coupling rods for my prototype; a Hornby 2721 is a bit of a compromise anyway of course.  It is now very well behaved.

 

It may seem unreasonable to those of the view that everything should work perfectly straight out of the box, and there is some validity to this view for brand new (a term which in my mind should not include items that have been on shelves for years and are described as brand new on the basis that they are in the same condition as they were when they left the factory,  They aren't; the grease has solidified and it is not impossible that mazak rot has set in) locos, let's say those that have left the factory in the last 12 months.  Anything else is in practice likely to need a bit of fettling to get it to run properly, and sometimes brand new (by my above definition) locos do as well.  There is no such thing as perfect factory QC, and I'd say that the standard of current new RTR models is as good as can be reasonably expected from volume produced items, and not far off as good as it could possibly be, but the odd dog slips through the net,

 

Of course, times change and I am a miserable old fuddy duddy who was schooled in a hobby in which it was generally accepted that owners of model railway locos, even at the train set level, had a basic understanding of how to maintain and repair them, and they were designed to be dismantled easily in order to facilitate this.  They were also pretty dire in terms of detail and good controlled low speed performance or smoothly stopping and starting.  Current RTR is moe complex and build to much finer tolerances, and out of many more components, all of which conspire to make some modellers very nervous about opening them up and doing things to them, understandably if such shenannigans are outside of your skillsets or comfort zone.

 

This is likely the reason that 2h models are often dirty and ill-maintained, and this is no longer reflected in the asking prices because the price of new models is rising and will continue to do so for the foreseable, for very sound economic reasons to do with increasing costs in China, where wages, factory rents, and other costs are rising.  Chinese people work hard to produce a high quality product, and we have exploited them for decades.  They deserve nice things and two hollys a year same as we do, and I don't begrude it them, but new locos are now priced increasingly beyond my reach (poor pensioner, cue tragic violins) and the prices of 2h models are being dragged up in consequence.  The laws of supply and demand are immutable and pitiless...

 

The OP has acquired a Heljan 33 at a price he is happy with, but it didn't run perfectly as delivered, and needed a bit of a cleanup, over which he feels somewhat aggreived.  I would be happy with that situation (assuming the loco now runs properly following his cleaning of it) if it were me, but it isn't me; I can express my view of this but he is entitled to his view as well.  He has decided, as is his absolute right, to only buy brand new items in future, from bigger retailers (though I don't see what the size of the retailer has to do with anything), and presumably he can afford to do this.  I have no problem with that!

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Secondhand is secondhand. We rely upon the vendor to tell us the facts. It appears that poor running due to cruddy pickups has spoilt the purchase. I have a number of small, bijou tank locos bought new that also run abominably, if at all, because the pickups are inadequate and misaligned. I have half a dozen Bachmann N class locos, all bought used on ebay, that run reliably every time everywhere.

 

Secondhand is secondhand, and it must always be caveat emptor - let the buyer beware.

 

I have a weakness for cameras. A recent ebay purchase of a mirrorless camera came with a lens - often not  the case in this market. The seller declared the camera had taken 16,000 pictures, but the photos showed it in pristine condition. Since the manufacturer has tested the shutter to 500,000 exposures, little risk. Both camera and lens are in current production, and for new examples Amazon would charge me slightly more than double what I paid. I have not been disappointed.

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Hi all,

Well I never buy new. Bit hard as all the engines that interest me are at least 40 years old. But there is one key phrase here "Paid top dollar last week for a Heljan 33 from a well known shop". If you insist on buying second hand from a main retailer you will pay over the odds for you product. Just like buying a car from a main dealer against going to Honests Rons just down the road. It probably will not be in any better condition from either. But you hope that because you have paid more from it you will get better service sending it back should it go wrong. But the product will not be any better. Second hand trains do not like second had cars get a service before you buy it unless stated when sold. IMHO if you buy something second hand do not cry about it because it is not like new.

Edited by cypherman
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When I got back into modelling I bought quite a few secong hand items. Some had faults obvious from the photos,  which I accepted I could do something about. The worst tended to be ones subsequently shown to be prone to zinc pest or axle failures like Mainline split chassis stuff. A couple were returned for refunds when they obviously couldn't be fixed.

I've had  problems with three new locos bought new. One was a T9 which succumbed to zinc pest and was returned to Hornby for a free rebuild, a Dapol Flying Banana which wouldn't run smoothly replaced by the shop and a Hornby B1 with faulty valve gear. In that case the shop couldn't supply another so refunded. I actually bought a perfect s/h one for less on ebay a few weeks later.

S/h or old shop stock can also suffer from oil or grease drying on the motor, gears, axles or valve gear. Best to check these out when running in.

The biggest problem with both new and s/h has been wheels and pickups. Now I  always clean both  check the back to back measurement and pickup alignment. Not had a failure (yet) after that.

Edited by TheSignalEngineer
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Back to backs, absolutely, Signal Engineer.  I have learned to never, ever, trust new, secondhand, stored or in regular use in this respect.  I have no idea what the mechanics of wheels moving at will along the axles to which they are tightly fitted to the extent that I cannot move them without considerable brutality are, but powerful forces are at work here.  I sort of assume they are mostly driven by expansion and contraction due to heat or lack of it, but my layout is situated in the living area part of my flat and temperature variations are not large.  Humidity is fairly constant as well, but this may be another factor in the lateral wanderings of my wheels. 

 

I check the b2bs of any item that comes into my posession as a matter of course; most of them are in the ballpark but there have been some surprising exceptions.  B2bs are the first and default check if there is a derailment as well. 

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Try Auctions.

There are some huge bargains to be had on what are probably obscure little Auction Places where everyone there appears to think an item  is a 'toy train'. Even after extortionate Commission and Vat and Bidding fees and 'something else' I don't understand, plus postage (actually not too bad) on a popular site, I have just bought 9 Baccy Mk1 Horse boxes, 4 of which are TMC weathered, for just over a tenner each. I looked on line and can't find any below £30 or available at all. OK so what do I need 9 Horse boxes for? You would be surprised. At the same auction a beautifully modelled Shop in a case went for over 10K; no, I didn't buy that.

Also at the same auction there were ex shop, unopened, unused Locos by the dozen, DCC ready, going for less than a third the price seen on some Traders' sites. There were none I fancied (almost all BR MR and Diesels), but had I been a dealer I would have made a killing, along with new Boxed Baccy Coaches in well organised batches of between 7 and 20, going for less than a tenner each after all fees and postage paid. Had I bothered to bid on those I could have resold on Ebay and still made a lot of dosh. As it was a I did auto 'maximum bids' on a couple of sets and they actually went for less than I would have paid if I had been there live.

However, it is a bit like being a kid in a Sweet Shop, unless you are very disciplined. 

I can tolerate the odd 'has been sitting around for quite a while' so probably needs a pre run service on my bench, and if six of the coaches have the same number....I might care if I was keeping them!

I know it sounds bad but I rarely buy pre used off the usual well known sites as I hardly ever see anything I need, but I am sure there are bargains to be had as has been stated above. £48 for a Castle is deffo a prize if you model where they used to go. If I go to a small and well run Model Shop I will often seek out stuff as there can be gems lurking. However, I rarely get to do that any more sadly.

Whatever, good luck in all you do and maybe don't groan cause some wheels need a clean up, life is too short.

Phil

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1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

Back to backs, absolutely, Signal Engineer.  I have learned to never, ever, trust new, secondhand, stored or in regular use in this respect.  I have no idea what the mechanics of wheels moving at will along the axles to which they are tightly fitted to the extent that I cannot move them without considerable brutality are, but powerful forces are at work here.  I sort of assume they are mostly driven by expansion and contraction due to heat or lack of it, but my layout is situated in the living area part of my flat and temperature variations are not large.  Humidity is fairly constant as well, but this may be another factor in the lateral wanderings of my wheels. 

 

I check the b2bs of any item that comes into my posession as a matter of course; most of them are in the ballpark but there have been some surprising exceptions.  B2bs are the first and default check if there is a derailment as well. 

Yup, I discovered that the B2Bs even need a check on straight off the factory ship stuff. Some Bulleid Pacifics I have had, the Drivers' B2Bs are all over the place.

P

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Try Auctions.

There are some huge bargains to be had on what are probably obscure little Auction Places where everyone there appears to think an item  is a 'toy train'. Even after extortionate Commission and Vat and Bidding fees and 'something else' I don't understand, plus postage (actually not too bad) on a popular site, I have just bought 9 Baccy Mk1 Horse boxes, 4 of which are TMC weathered, for just over a tenner each. I looked on line and can't find any below £30 or available at all. OK so what do I need 9 Horse boxes for? You would be surprised.

At the same auction a beautifully modelled Ship in a case went for over 10K; no, I didn't buy that.

Also at the same auction there were ex shop, unopened, unused Locos by the dozen, DCC ready, going for less than a third the price seen on some Traders' sites. There were none I fancied (almost all BR MR and Diesels), but had I been a dealer I would have made a killing, along with new Boxed Baccy Coaches in well organised batches of between 7 and 20, going for less than a tenner each after all fees and postage paid. Had I bothered to bid on those I could have resold on Ebay and still made a lot of dosh. As it was  I did auto 'maximum bids' on a couple of sets and they actually went for less than I would have paid if I had been there live.

However, it is a bit like being a kid in a Sweet Shop, unless you are very disciplined. 

I can tolerate the odd 'has been sitting around for quite a while' so probably needs a pre run service on my bench, and if six of the coaches have the same number....I might care if I was keeping them!

I know it sounds bad but I rarely buy pre used off the usual well known Trader sites as I hardly ever see anything I need, but I am sure there are bargains to be had as has been stated above. £48 for a Castle is deffo a prize if you model where they used to go. If I go to a small and well run Model Shop I will often seek out stuff as there can be gems lurking. However, I rarely get to do that any more sadly.

Whatever, good luck in all you do and maybe don't groan cause some wheels need a clean up, life is too short.

Phil

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I've bought very little brand new for several years now. In those cases the items have invariably on sale at a large discount from the likes of Rails or Hattons.

 

I prefer the term "pre-owned" to secondhand. Most of my stuff comes off ebay, and I usually go for descriptions such as "mint" or "as new". Photographs should enable you to confirm this. Many pre-owned items have been bought by people who either intend to build a layout one day, but don't manage to do so, or else just like the idea of ownership and perhaps display on a shelf. In consequence I'd expect to save somewhere between 30% and 50% on standard retail from a box shifter, more obviously compared to RRP. On some occasions I'll go for a non runner, if it's something I'm really interested in, and can achieve a buying price that offers greater reward for my increased risk that repair won't be possible.

 

The essential thing is that I recognise I'll have to do a bit of work, such as wheel cleaning, that's the deal for the saving! Even if the loco hasn't turned a wheel it is quite possible the factory applied grease has congealed after a few years and will need cleaning out, and re-doing. If folk really aren't happy with taking the body off and having a fiddle about, then buy new from a shop so they have to fix any problems, rather than the purchaser.

 

John.

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11 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

I have purchased dozens of non-runner locomotives from a well known store over the past few years and in most cases either there was nothing wrong with them or a very simple fix to get running.  Some were decoder fitted and analogue running had been disabled,  some were a simple wire connection broken or a loco had been rebuilt with the polarity reversed resulting in no power pickup.  There was a very,  very occasional failure that was not worth fixing but it always amazed me that the store did not have staff to carry out simple troubleshooting to correct an issue and thus double the asking price.   One non-runner,  a late release Hornby Castle class non-runner,  I could find no issue with and yet it was fitted with an ESU sound decoder.  Both analogue and digital running were flawless and yet the loco was listed for GBP48.00  (I paid GBP40.00 after VAT discount).  If the store had correctly tested the loco then the asking price would have been at least three times the price.

 

Such bargains alas are no more,  as it seems that others have realised the value in purchasing a non-runner or as I have seen of late,  even non-runners are listed at premium prices.

 

If you are referring to the well-known store I think you are, I have just - yesterday - obtained a small mint boxed 0-4-0 saddle tank from there, priced £5 and £9 less than two visibly inferior examples, simply because it was described as a "poor runner". If the motor and gears are working, probably just pick-ups again. Er, no - it runs fine - should have said "slightly noisy runner". It's actually a little quieter than the locos it will run beside, so happy bunny here!

 

Over recent years they've supplied me with a non-running Hornby Class 20 for £30 (loose drive shaft, the Lima version suffered the same problem, fixed in minutes), a Lima Class 47 in Large Logo Blue with detached trailing bogie for £21 (slipped out of the retaining clip, fixed in even fewer minutes), a Heljan Western "poor runner" for £48 (pick-ups simply needed adjusting) and a Heljan Class 128 parcels unit in blue with end gangways and headcodes with three pieces of detached detailing for just £46, which I still can't get my head around - how much did they offer the person who traded it in? All were mint boxed. The latter meant the 1970s WR parcels 'triple' (128 + GUV + 116) I had considered but dismissed was suddenly on again!

 

But I agree that generally speaking such bargains are now much harder to come by and my latest little purchase simply appears to be a mistake, possibly due to high throughput on the day it came in. As others have commented, ever-rising new prices are driving up those for second-hand, some of which are now frankly eye-watering compared to what these items originally retailed at, but hey, if people are prepared to pay those prices who am I to argue? Damaged but sound-fitted models confuse the picture as they appear to be a lot of money for inferior items, and I notice that they tend to 'stick'.

 

Fortunately for me I already have everything I shall ever need (or so I keep telling myself....!) and I'm not interested in upgrading, what I have is good enough for me. "Thank heavens for that", says my bank account......

 

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I have 15 locomotives for my small but busy BLT, all bought over the last 5 years.  I have not paid RRP for any of them, and while the bulk are 2h, my brand new locos were all discounted well below RRP.  That said I have most of what I want and am glad to have got them in before the prices went beyond me, as they are now starting to do.  For example:-

 

Brand new Hornby 5101, when it was released, RRP £139.99 IIRC, Bure Valley Models £104 (impulse buy, couldn't be left in the shop at that price).

 

Brand new Bachmann 94xx, when it was released, RRP £129.99 IIRC, Rails of Sheffield pre-ordered at £106.99, price honoured. 

 

Brand new Hornby 42xx, post design clever model, when they were RRP £104.99, Lord and Butler on offer at £79.99. 

 

Those days are not far in the past, but they are nonetheless very firmly in the past now.  My 2h locos have all been satisfactory, and only one, a Bachmann 56xx sold as 'NIB' which on examination proved to have been badly resprayed with the cab windows oversprayed, was other than as I'd expected.  Even this was a fair enough price, lower than the going rate at the time, but I have black marked the supplier and will avoid him in future.  Would have been happy if he'd described the loco accurately.

 

I bought a 2h Hornby 2721 at Lord and Butlers a few years ago, asking price £30 but ran like a 3 legged dog with 3 different legs on test, so Peter looked in the back for a replacement, unsuccessfully.  I offered him a fiver for it unseen, reckoning I could get it running and prepared to take a punt, and he bit.  As I'd suspected, it was filthy and had been overoiled, and a deep clean had it running, but it never ran well or reliably despite a lot of chassisfettling until I put a Bachmann pannier chassis under it.  This came from a £50 2h eBay loco, and the two bodies share the chassis.  I still have the Hornby chassis and occasionally try to fettle it into order, but it has so far defeated me and I have more or less given up on it.

 

RTR coaches are getting pricey, and this is making Wizard Comet kits more attractive; the price rises may well see a resurgence in kit building by modellers who never thought they would bother with them, but need items that can only be sourced in this way, and I suspect wagon kits will go through the same resurgence as well. as long as the kit producers can keep a lid on prices, which they seem to be doing so far.  Neccessity, and poverty, are the unmarried parents of kitbuilding...

Edited by The Johnster
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1 hour ago, John Tomlinson said:

 

The essential thing is that I recognise I'll have to do a bit of work, such as wheel cleaning, that's the deal for the saving! Even if the loco hasn't turned a wheel it is quite possible the factory applied grease has congealed after a few years and will need cleaning out, and re-doing. If folk really aren't happy with taking the body off and having a fiddle about, then buy new from a shop so they have to fix any problems, rather than the purchaser.

Agreed, but the prices of 2h models are rising, which means the 'deal for the saving', in which you are happy to do a bit of graft to get the loco running properly, is becoming less of a deal, and less attractive. 

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