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Deffo no more second hand


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52 minutes ago, Neil Phillips said:

 

Fortunately for me I already have everything I shall ever need (or so I keep telling myself....!) and I'm not interested in upgrading, what I have is good enough for me. "Thank heavens for that", says my bank account......

 

 

While I prefer to not purchase new items,  preferring mint looking secondhand items (at least I was until covid drove up used prices to beyond what I could purchase the same model new just two years ago),  I have lashed out on three pre-orders.  I have never done so previously so this is new territory for me.  At some time later this year,  a "Kerosine Castle",  a "Fell" and a Kerr-Stuart Victory will be heading my way.   I reasoned that with limited production batches these days the chance of an inexpensive pre-owned model in the near future was not possible and with increasing pre-owned prices I might as well bite the bullet and pay retail for a new item.

 

My recent poor experience with two Heljan 1361 class models and several B2 Pecketts has me doubting the value in purchasing newly released models.  While the Pecketts were relatively easy to fix,  the Heljan small locomotives are not intuitively simple to disassemble and so found their way back to the store in question.  The replacement was barely better.  So much for used items being below par,  one would expect better with a new model.

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21 hours ago, Paul H Vigor said:

The thing with second hand models is: it is worth to you whatever you decide to pay for it. If it's something you REALLY want you will be willing to pay over the odds for it.

 

Whenever I buy second hand I expect to undertake repair/restoration work. That, I am afraid, is the nature of the beast! Sorts out the modellers from the boys/girls! :locomotive:

I agree. I've put together a small fleet of Northern Rail liveried N gauge 153 and 156s but am drawing the line at 97 quid for a dummy 153 when you consider I paid 78 for a Settle-Carlisle liveried 156, 60 for a dummy 156, 90 for a full 153 and 140 for a full 156, all in excellent condition - I got lucky on that aspect. I'd like to run an occasional 153/156 triple without tying up the motorised 153 to do so, as occasionally seen on my home line of the Cumbrian Coast Line, but not enough to pay nearly 100 quid for it.

Some people are wanting silly money!

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48 minutes ago, GWR-fan said:

 

While I prefer to not purchase new items,  preferring mint looking secondhand items (at least I was until covid drove up used prices to beyond what I could purchase the same model new just two years ago),  I have lashed out on three pre-orders.  I have never done so previously so this is new territory for me.  At some time later this year,  a "Kerosine Castle",  a "Fell" and a Kerr-Stuart Victory will be heading my way.   I reasoned that with limited production batches these days the chance of an inexpensive pre-owned model in the near future was not possible and with increasing pre-owned prices I might as well bite the bullet and pay retail for a new item.

 

My recent poor experience with two Heljan 1361 class models and several B2 Pecketts has me doubting the value in purchasing newly released models.  While the Pecketts were relatively easy to fix,  the Heljan small locomotives are not intuitively simple to disassemble and so found their way back to the store in question.  The replacement was barely better.  So much for used items being below par,  one would expect better with a new model.

 

I entirely agree with your reasoning. I really needed two of Kernow's D600 Warships so I pre-ordered them - like you, not something I normally do. They are still the most expensive models I have bought. Two years plus since release and I think I've seen just one as pre-owned. I have been considering DHP1 (yep, there I go again already!) - as a diesel-hydraulic I thought I could maybe justify Swindon obtaining it for testing, like it did the Yorkshire Engine Company's 'Taurus' 0-8-0 - and if I decide to go for it, it would be a pre-order or new purchase, for the reasons you state. Besides which, if a manufacturer is brave enough to take on such an obscure prototype they deserve supporting directly. 

 

I grabbed a Heljan 1366 when on special offer and, thanks to comments on here, checked it for 'pinched axle syndrome' before even test-running it. Sure enough.......so I made sure the axles moved freely and it's fine. It could have had other issues, but fortunately not in this case. I was pleased not to have to take it apart as.............well, let's just say that I often wonder how they manage to assemble these things in the factory  :scratchhead:!

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13 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Agreed, but the prices of 2h models are rising, which means the 'deal for the saving', in which you are happy to do a bit of graft to get the loco running properly, is becoming less of a deal, and less attractive. 

 

Not sure I'd agree with this.

 

If the price of pre-owned is rising, it is primarily driven by the rise in RRP of new issues. So the differential remains intact, and the saving in fact has probably increased in money terms, although the absolute price has risen.

 

The other thing is that different models seem to behave differently in pricing. Some of this is probably down to popularity, other examples may be down to the number of items already produced, supply if you like to call it that. There's no earthly reason why a pre-owned Pullman coach from Hornby, in mint condition, should go for 2 to 3 times the price if it has 12 wheels rather than 8, but it does, to give but one example.

 

John.

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As always its a mix or the luck of the draw .   I've bought quite a lot second hand over the last 10 years . Generally it been OK , but I do expect as a matter of course that I need to clean wheels and give them a minor service .  But I think you just need to be aware . There are some things that are virtually indestructible like Lima Diesels and Electrics or Wrenn steamers ,  and I've never had any problem with them . On the other hand if you are buying later Hornby steamers , say 2006-2018 period just be aware that many have extremely vulnerable or flimsy bits and several from that time have motors that expire . Is it the Southern S15 or N15 , in particular that had poor motors ?

 

The worst buy was a Hornby A1 Bon Accord . In fairness it did run, as had been described in eBay , but slowed to a crawl and then died . I thought it was motor issue but then discovered it had been massively over oiled and there was some tar like substance on the pick ups . Cleaned it all up but she still has a tendency to derail on 2nd radius points curved sections . As a result her usefulness is massively impeded . Oh well !  Write it off to experience .

 

 

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I think it's a case of finding dealers you know you can trust. My local model shop has a very decent selection of second-hand stuff, fairly priced, and they're honest about the condition. You might find cheaper prices online, but I've been burned before by apparent must-have bargains (literally in one case). I consider it worth paying a little extra for the peace of mind. In the pre-COVID days of swapmeets, there were a few regular traders who I would always visit.

 

As for the rising price of second-hand, I think that only really applies in the case of locomotives that were expensive to begin with. I actually think that the price of older locomotives hasn't risen in line with inflation - you can still get, say, a Hornby 0-4-0 for a tenner, which is about what I would have paid a decade ago. On the other hand, the introduction of new versions of old models has reduced demand for certain second-hand locos. You can get a Triang M7 for about £30 these days, whereas I remember before Hornby introduced the new version, I'd regularly see them going for eye-watering prices.

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On 22/08/2021 at 11:13, John Tomlinson said:

So the differential remains intact, and the saving in fact has probably increased in money terms, although the absolute price has risen.

It doesn't feel to me that the differential expressed as a %age of the new price has maintained it's size, it feels to me that it is ballpark the same as it was 2 years ago, which means that as the prices of both new and 2h items has risen, the differential is less in %age terms, hence 2h is by and large less value for money.  Certainly, in my case, impoverished pensioner that I am, the amount of committment needed a couple of years ago for me to buy a discounted new loco equates to that required now for the same loco 2h.  Difficult to pin down objectively of course, as the price of 2h is variable in response to market forces; it sells for what someone is prepared to pay for it. 

 

I browse Hattons' pre-owned sometimes, looking for bargains, and find that the pricing seems anomalous and often predicated on the condition of the box, which I could not care less about.  So, a good item in a poor box should in theory be a bargain.  Yeah, dream on, Johnster...

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It's neither difficult nor expensive to clean wheels, so dirty wheels have yet to really bother me.

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

browse Hattons' pre-owned sometimes, looking for bargains, and find that the pricing seems anomalous and often predicated on the condition of the box, which I could not care less about.  So, a good item in a poor box should in theory be a bargain.  Yeah, dream on, Johnster...

Such thinking was how I picked up a limited edition Bachmann 47, in a unique livery and in fine fettle, off a secondhand shelf for less than £80 - it had no box, so people didn't see the value in it!

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2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

It doesn't feel to me that the differential expressed as a %age of the new price has maintained it's size, it feels to me that it is ballpark the same as it was 2 years ago, which means that as the prices of both new and 2h items has risen, the differential is less in %age terms, hence 2h is by and large less value for money.  Certainly, in my case, impoverished pensioner that I am, the amount of committment needed a couple of years ago for me to buy a discounted new loco equates to that required now for the same loco 2h.  Difficult to pin down objectively of course, as the price of 2h is variable in response to market forces; it sells for what someone is prepared to pay for it. 

 

I browse Hattons' pre-owned sometimes, looking for bargains, and find that the pricing seems anomalous and often predicated on the condition of the box, which I could not care less about.  So, a good item in a poor box should in theory be a bargain.  Yeah, dream on, Johnster...

 

A very fair comment, as we are all speaking anecdotally, and these things are difficult to quantify. As I said in my earlier post, there isn't common price behaviour for all items, so that makes the water muddier as well.

 

FWIW, I had a look at Hattons pre-owned after reading some of this thread. I've spent quite a lot with them over the years, nearly all on new items in sales, and been very pleased with what I've bought. I've also visited their shop in Widnes a few times, and enjoyed dealing with all their staff. I'm bound to say however that some of the pre-owned prices seemed to me to be well over the top, certainly far more than I'd be prepared to pay and with a reference back to settled prices on ebay.

 

Coming back to where this thread started, a purchase from a dealer, we need to remember that in any distribution chain every player takes a slice of the action. So the more players, the higher will tend to be the price to the final consumer. Some few years ago I found myself on an overseas railtour with a toyfair trader, and we had some good chats. He worked on the basis that if he bought for £10, he'd expect to sell for £30 - £40. That's what he needed to cover his costs of travel, cost of money out in stock, items that had come in lots and were useless, and quite reasonably, something for his trouble. If you take any local model shop, right up to something the size of Hattons, they too have costs to meet. If, in contrast, any of us buy from another individual on something like ebay, yes there are costs of the auction, of Paypal if you use that, and of course postage. I don't have hard data, but I'd be surprised if that lot added together was anything like a retailer/ middleman's markup. What you take on of course is a bit more risk, but in several hundred ebay purchases the number of returns by me to the seller can be numbered comfortably on the fingers of one hand, as can the "words" as to condition compared to description, in this case all with compensation being readily forthcoming.

 

John.

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On 21/08/2021 at 17:31, Mallard60022 said:

Try Auctions.

SSHhhhhh Don't tell everyone!!! The less competition the better. I was watching that same auction with the ship that went nuts. I didn't really get what I wanted, I was after the K's Kits of Lion and Black 5, but it got too rich for me so settled for a Jinty and a Webb Coal to make me feel better. Got them both for less than I can find a Webb on its own.

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I often buy spares or repairs. I have an A1 Flying Scotsman in the post with a TSS chip boxed for £43. The motor doesn't go, but part of the fun is fixing them. I generally strip every last thing I buy down and service them.

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I got back into the hobby last year and most of the fleet I’ve accumulated over the past year and a half have been secondhand. The only poor performer is a Heljan Teddy Bear, all the others are good’uns. It’s not practical to buy new all the time when feeding one’s locomotive addiction over a shortish time. Plus most get altered in some way, so are in bits for a while at least.

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I always try to buy second hand, Lack of funds compels it. However My son and his grand dad do like to buy new so I get to fettle their new locos and turn them into useful train hauling devices.  My experience with Heljan, 2 X Dock Tans and a Hymek is 100% positive.  Recent Bachmann 100% good Split Chassis unused sold as new  Bachmann Awful,  Wheels fell off basically,  Hattons 100%   Oxford (Dean) sheer frustration.  Dapol, only 1 43XX 100% Negative, it fell on its side after 6 feet, needed the leading wheels re profiled.  And Hornby hours of frustration, broken bits, B 'to B issues guard irons fouling derailments.  Among the last locos I bought the Wrenn 08 stands head and shoulders as a shining beacon of rubbish, it burned out within 6 feet of removing from the box but a bit of solder and a lot of fettling it is now great.

Its horses for courses.  If you don't mind a bit of fettling you might as well buy S/H.

If you want perfect running out of the box I would suggest you take up a different hobby before all the model shops black list you for constantly sending stuff back.

Many of you could avoid hassle by buying a decent DC controller, you fry the motor with a PWM controller before fitting a DCC chip and finding it don't work, instead  of running in on DC from a Morley or something not a resistance control or PWM , or using a DCC controller and chip to provide DC power for running in.

Still don't address the lack of weight issue which means a strip down and stuffing with lead whether the Loco is new or old.  

 

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I would estimate that 75% of my stock is "pre-owned" bought from many sources.

 

Quite a fair amount in "as new/mint/never run" condition & serviced (locomotives) & checked (rolling stock) before use which is, to me about right.

 

Bought one locomotive from a well know eBay dealer & paid top money for it (been after one for years) - yes, it was mint but the traction tyres had hardened & spun on the wheels - would have been apparent if it had been actually tested. Contacted dealer - no response, so the response from me was negative feedback.

Had one item damaged in the post, seller offered me a refund but I did want the locomotive so he offered a 25% refund which I was happy with & repaired the damage.

The only other issue was a locomotive that was not the "mint" example in the images but a well used one - had to get eBay/PayPal involved for refund.

 

Otherwise, overall pleased & happy with my "pre-owned" stock & generally good experiences. I have noticed that recently prices are going up at a rate consistant with new items.

 

Good & bad with anything pre-owned, from our models to houses.

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, DCB said:

I always try to buy second hand, Lack of funds compels it. However My son and his grand dad do like to buy new so I get to fettle their new locos and turn them into useful train hauling devices.  My experience with Heljan, 2 X Dock Tans and a Hymek is 100% positive.  Recent Bachmann 100% good Split Chassis unused sold as new  Bachmann Awful,  Wheels fell off basically,  Hattons 100%   Oxford (Dean) sheer frustration.  Dapol, only 1 43XX 100% Negative, it fell on its side after 6 feet, needed the leading wheels re profiled.  And Hornby hours of frustration, broken bits, B 'to B issues guard irons fouling derailments.  Among the last locos I bought the Wrenn 08 stands head and shoulders as a shining beacon of rubbish, it burned out within 6 feet of removing from the box but a bit of solder and a lot of fettling it is now great.

Its horses for courses.  If you don't mind a bit of fettling you might as well buy S/H.

If you want perfect running out of the box I would suggest you take up a different hobby before all the model shops black list you for constantly sending stuff back.

Many of you could avoid hassle by buying a decent DC controller, you fry the motor with a PWM controller before fitting a DCC chip and finding it don't work, instead  of running in on DC from a Morley or something not a resistance control or PWM , or using a DCC controller and chip to provide DC power for running in.

Still don't address the lack of weight issue which means a strip down and stuffing with lead whether the Loco is new or old.  

 

 

What is PWM please?

 

Interesting comment on frying motors, hence my question. I've somewhere between one and two hundred locos (probably, not really a clue) and don't recall having fryed (fried?) anything yet, using ancient H&M and more recently Gaugemaster, all DC.

 

Always glad to learn though.

 

John.

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When buying second hand I always take the view that there’s a high chance that the loco was surplus to requirements, so probably not run for a while so will need a wheel clean and light oil.. usually right. My loco shop will always run them for me, where-as i am not always convinced that the two big box shifters do , so it’s more of a chance purchase given they are warehouses as opposed to model shops.

 

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17 minutes ago, 47164 said:

When buying second hand I always take the view that there’s a high chance that the loco was surplus to requirements, so probably not run for a while so will need a wheel clean and light oil.. usually right. My loco shop will always run them for me, where-as i am not always convinced that the two big box shifters do , so it’s more of a chance purchase given they are warehouses as opposed to model shops.

 

I actually do trust Hattons for second hand - probably had 15 locos second hand from them over the last 4-5 years (restarting in the hobby from scratch) and while some have been better than others, ALL were as advertised (whether good or bad) - so someone in Widnes is doing their job!

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Basically my own rule of thumb for second hand is Hattons or a small number of Smaller retailers I trust. I’ll buy stock from EBay individuals, but not locomotives unless I fancy a challenge (without necessarily knowing if I’m going to get one!)

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The issues of PWM controllers with coreless motors have been discussed on RMWeb (and places online) many times.  Judicious use of online search tools should find plenty of information on the subject.

 

Talk of frying a motor using  PWM controller before fitting a DCC chip sounds a bit muddled, given that DCC chips use PWM to control the motor speed (at 16kHz by default, I believe - which I agree would probably be less injurious than PWM at mains frequency).

 

There is a thread here in which, amongst other things, a cheap PWM DC motor controller which can be set to PWM frequencies from 1kHz to 99kHz is discussed.

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1 minute ago, Helmdon said:

Basically my own rule of thumb for second hand is Hattons or a small number of Smaller retailers I trust. I’ll buy stock from EBay individuals, but not locomotives unless I fancy a challenge (without necessarily knowing if I’m going to get one!)

When I buy used, I expect I need to do some work, so set a value accordingly.  Most of the loco's I buy come from various retailers and eBay. 

 

If buying from a retailer I know I'll get a refund if the loco turns up not as described and too far gone to repair or if I'd need a new motor/gears etc, smaller details can be replaced either from the spares box, or cobbling up from plastic rod etc and I generally repaint my stock so finish isn't a problem (there are exceptions to the rule though such as blue-grey stock - that white line is pain to paint!)

 

If buying from eBay, again I set a value and stick to it, so if I get a lemon, then I've not shelled out too much and will set about repairing it.  Most of the time I get what I consider to be a bargain. 

 

Over the past year or so I was after a class 45 to run on a friends layout which is a tailchaser based on a fast double-track mainline, so I looked for an old Mainline split headcode 45.  I've lots of spares for these inc motors/wheels etc etc so set a max value of £15 and  submitted a best offer on a rather down at heal looking non-runner.  It was accepted and duly sent to me. 

 

On arrival it turned out to be a mainline body on an early Bachmann chassis (central motor), and had an unopened Craftsman detailing kit  Te reason it wasn't running was dirt on the wheels/pick-ups and  broken pick up wires on one of the bogies.  Half an hour later I had a sweet running chassis.  I resprayed the body in BR Blue after a bit of detailing, then my friend sold the bloomin' layout!

 

After this rather long-winded post, used purchases can turn up some gems, as above, but I have been caught out a few times and just put it down to experience (Hornby SD 56 which was a bag of spanners).  Bottom line is set a max value on what you think a used item is worth, and expect to do basic servicing on it at the very least, don't expect a brand new loco!

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I built a feedback controller many years ago that uses PWM.  It worked well for most motors, but some tended to overheat. I now use variable transformers (H & M Powermaster and Hornby Dublo Marshal IIIs). They are rather ancient but can tame anything. (At least I haven't found anything yet - not even Hornby 0-4-0STs.)

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Caveat Emptor. 

 

My view is that any 2h purchase is a bit of a gamble, and gamblers tend to lose overall despite occasionally striking lucky; with this glass-half-empty approach, one develops the eventual view that eBay purchases are by and large value for money and better than you'd expected.  I have had some real bargains, but they are largely things that I wanted and nobody else did.  I have paid what I thought were fairly stiff prices, but that was my decision.  Only one has been a bit of a problem, a Bachmann 56xx described as 'as new' that turned out to have been a green liveried G W R liveied loco oversprayed in black, to the extent that the spectacle plate windows were obscured.  It was priced resonably for a model in that condition and looked like a better bargain than it was because of a false description, so I was not unduly troubled by it but I noted the seller and will not buy anything from him again; my view is that he is mendacious and borderline dishonest, and I don't trust him.  He is the loser in this case, as he has lost a customer who would have probably been happy to buy the loco had it been properly described! 

 

I would make the point that I think secondhand models are a minefield of potential problems for newcomers to the hobby, who are often younger modellers on restricted budgets that we advise to buy models secondhand to save their money and gain experience getting them to run properly and detailing them to improve the standard, which is good advice as far as it goes.  But for absolute beginners, tempting though 'Bay bargains might be if they are on limited budgets, I would very strongly recommend buying new or at least warrantied 2h from the likes of Hattons or Rails, despite the higher prices, and ideally seeing the loco running before you part with your beer vouchers.

 

When you are starting out, you need locos that you know are working reliably for your layout testing, and if a loco will not run and you don't know if the problem is the loco, or your wiring, you are in a very frustrating position and it will not encourage you to continue with a hobby that you may now think is beyond your ability to manage.  Depressed, you give up, and find that what you paid for the stuff is about 4 times what you can get when you liquidise, confirming your belief that a) model railways is a rich man's game and b) you've been ripped off; everybody knows that secondhand model railways hold their value, they've seen it on 'Going For A Song'...

 

If you've paid some modelling dues, and got a bit of experience under your belt, so that you can comfortably dismantle and deep clean a loco, re-assemble it, and run it, then by all means take your chances on the 'Bay, or at swapmeets, and so on.  Which brings us around full circle to where I started...

 

Caveat Emptor.

 

 

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