North American railroad noobie! Norfolk and western layout.

[Alcanman]

My old CSX Palmetto Spur HO layout was referenced in an earlier posting. Here is the trackplan.

 

The layout measured 9ft x 15 inches. As you have more space available, you may wish to include a run around and include industry spurs  with both facing and trailing spurs (sidings).

 

I've attached another plan of a layout I built - 'Deerfield Beach FL' which may be useful. Once again, 9ft x 15ins but could be easily 'stretched' to fit your space.

 

Both of these layout were fun to operate using one dcc sound fitted loco. 

 

IMHO the Palmetto Spur plan, designed by Lance Mindheim is a classic plan for small switching layout and one which I will use again. Watch this space.......

[40 058]

Thanks for the track plans, they do look about what I’ve got in mind. Same for some of those on the links on the first page of this thread. 
 

Ive had a quick look in my railway shed/man cave, and I’ve got two potential places to build my little corner of the USA. Both are currently being used as storage shelves for my OO stock.

1: measures just under 14’, this is the place mentioned in my first post. It’s a simple straight 2’ x just under 14’ plank.

2: measures about 12’ x 10’ but is an L shape. Obviously this could mean a bigger available space for scenic area and off scene storage roads. I think this space ‘might’ be quite a bit more flexible.

 

Of course both options mean finding somewhere else to store everything that’s currently on them! Shouldn’t be too much of a problem though.

One downside to both is that because they’re currently shelves, they do both have a couple of timber support legs part way along which support the OO layout above them. I don’t think it’s a big deal however, certainly no worse than some loft layouts have with the roof support timbers in the way. It should be easily ignored and worked around, put it that way.

 

I think my next move should be to clear the spaces off and see how they look and what might fit. One major positive with both locations though is that I built them in exactly the same way I build my layout baseboards, so they should both already be good enough to take track straight away.

 

 

Ive also spotted something on eBay which I love the look of, so I might possibly have accidentally treated myself to one… 

A Rapido Alco RS11 in Norfolk & Western colours! Lovely looking model, not cheap, but definitely a nice looker!

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, 40 058 said:

Ive also spotted something on eBay which I love the look of, so I might possibly have accidentally treated myself to one… 

A Rapido Alco RS11 in Norfolk & Western colours! Lovely looking model, not cheap, but definitely a nice looker!

 

Which brings us to a topic that likely won't apply to your current switching layout idea, unless you perhaps run to locos together (something that DCC of course makes easier).

 

Various railroads had different preferences back then for what was the "front" of the loco, so you either need to know how that railroad operated or try and see if there is a "F" near the steps indicating front.

 

The N&W ran with the long hood forward - so this picture you can see the F at the steps on the long hood end.

https://www.railpictures.net/photo/387076/

 

Other railroad went short hood forward, and of course some will have switched at some point and thus have a mix.

 

The era of the cut down short hood allowing full front windows pretty much ended running long hood forward, though there were likely exceptions.

 

This of course is really only relevant if (as noted) you are coupling 2 or more locos together, as in switching or even a single loco case they would have run which ever way was practical.

[40 058]

Thanks. That was something else I didn’t know! Now I do!

If I do opt to run two locomotives together, how were they ‘supposed’ to run? Would both locos be the same way round - both long hoods facing forwards or both short hoods facing forwards?

Or would they be positioned so the two long hoods faced away from each other? Indeed, did it matter?

 

I must admit, one of the reasons I wanted to stick to the earlier diesel era was because of the two tall hoods on many early diesels. I don’t think they look as good with the cut down short hoods.

 

This might be a stupid question, but what actually was inside the short hoods?

[mdvle]

15 minutes ago, 40 058 said:

If I do opt to run two locomotives together, how were they ‘supposed’ to run?

 

In theory 2 locos together would be arranged so that which every unit lead the train had it's front to the front.

 

The reason is simple - the engineer (driver) had their seat and controls set up facing the front direction so it was more comfortable for them.  See this YouTube video of the cab of an RS-11 and note the location of the relevant gauges for the engineer (this cab is set up for long hood forward).

 

 

(the engineer seat on North American locos is on the right side of the cab, so the opposite of the UK).

 

 

15 minutes ago, 40 058 said:

Would both locos be the same way round - both long hoods facing forwards or both short hoods facing forwards?

Or would they be positioned so the two long hoods faced away from each other? Indeed, did it matter?

 

To much focus on hoods, given that as noted before the front of the loco varied by purchase date and railroad.

 

The general idea would be to have a loco facing forward on each end of a consist of locos - much better for the engineer.

So for the N&W who ran long hood forward they would try and arrange a 2 loco consist with the 2 short hood ends coupled, leading to the so called back to back (instead of elephant style).

 

That said, reality often would have had other ideas.  If there was no way to turn a loco at the origin it may have been necessary to have the locos with both locos oriented in the same direction so that in one direction they were running "backwards"

 

15 minutes ago, 40 058 said:

I must admit, one of the reasons I wanted to stick to the earlier diesel era was because of the two tall hoods on many early diesels. I don’t think they look as good with the cut down short hoods.

 

This might be a stupid question, but what actually was inside the short hoods?

 

Not really sure, it sometimes varied.  There may have been a toilet (a common feature of North American diesels given the distances involved), or in some cases they may also have put in a steam boiler for passenger operation.

 

[doctor quinn]

41 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

The era of the cut down short hood allowing full front windows pretty much ended running long hood forward, though there were likely exceptions.

Norfolk and Western’s later SD40-2s had a low short hood but the long hood was designated as the front.

 

http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1584409

 

Here’s one I made earlier 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2021 by doctor quinn
Edit pic

[Koala Creek]

Great info & advice here. Helped answer a couple of question I had as well ... as I am also a US layout noob

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/166552-south-side-flats-having-a-go-at-an-h0-scale-shelf-layout/

 

This is my current trackplan

 

[BR60103]

There would be a bunch of considerations about how units were oriented.

If they were going up a branchline with no turning facilities, they would probably be back-to-back.

On a long cross-country run, they might try to have 2 units (out of a bunch) facing forward in case the lead unit failed.

There might be different considerations with F and GP units, as F units were less comfortable to run backwards.

 

[John M Upton]

E and F units are an interesting case. Inflexible compared with hood units and usually formed in pairs or more with cabs outermost, sometimes with cabless B units tucked inside. 

 

If it were required, how did an E or F unit run in reverse?

[pH]

5 hours ago, John M Upton said:

E and F units are an interesting case. Inflexible compared with hood units and usually formed in pairs or more with cabs outermost, sometimes with cabless B units tucked inside. 

 

If it were required, how did an E or F unit run in reverse?

There were ‘hostler’ controls on the non-driving ends of at least some units to allow moving them around yards and engine facilities. 

Here’s a description and pictures of the hostler controls on an F unit (actually a ‘B’ unit):

 

https://www.wplives.org/audio_tour_files/m_wp925c_audio_tour.html

Edited August 23, 2021 by pH

[MarshLane]

Hi @40 058,

A little late to the party here, but well done for dipping your toe in the water. I think we all tend to go with what we know (usually either where we lived or grew up) and not that many in comparison venture outside that field.  Some friends got me into watching the US Railroad webcams that are freely streamed on YouTube.  I had a little bit of a interest in modern day US Railroading, but couldn't tell you the difference between a GM or a GE (other than manufacturer) for love nor money!  Having really got into it and seen the differences, I got hooked and thought oh well I'll get a couple of the N gauge locos to put in the display cabinet as the liveries will be different.  That was two years ago, I now have 16 locos, and the wagon fleet has just passed 70 vehicles!  My layout is underway (two steps backwards and one forwards at the moment).  The purpose of saying all this is, keep in there, knowledge comes from an interest in the topic, reading and learning from people, and there is some great advice, info and thoughts already on this thread.

 

On 21/08/2021 at 11:01, 40 058 said:

Ive actually already noticed that US outline stuff isn’t particularly well catered for here. There’s some stuff available but certainly not a comprehensive range like you get with OO. 
To be honest, getting stuff from the US isn’t a problem for me. I know it takes a while to get here and the postage can add up but it is what it is. 
Ive actually got an American car, which I bought in the US and shipped over here so I’m already familiar with getting parts etc etc from the US and so far had no problems. 

 

Others will chip in (and be far more knowledgable) on the HO / 4mm front but a couple of points for you. If you can go DCC from the start.  Whether you go with the 'its only two wires' view or not, I do generally believe it makes operating better and more realistic. You dont need to go down the expense of DCC Sound at this point if you dont wish, but DCC motor/function decoders, with a stay alive, will make operating far more pleasurable.

You mention about getting stuff from the US. Have you come across Mech Models in Burton-on-Trent, they are big US dealers, and Rails of Sheffield have started to expand their US product range - keep an eye on their eBay store for some good stuff. I picked a Kato N gauge loco up from the, DCC fitted a few months ago for just 65 notes - they were £95 or £105 everywhere else, same model.

 

However, if you have to get things from the US, consider using a consolidation company, there are a few about. Basically you pay a monthly membership fee (usually less than £10) and they give you a US address that packages (eBay or shops) can be sent to. They are consolidated from several boxes into one, and forwarded on, meaning only one import charge.  I have an account with myUS - used it on the 30 day free trial period, had eight or nine packages from various shops and eBay sellers delivered to them, they repacked, and when I requested sent over to the UK with UPS. I paid one import charge and it was A LOT cheaper than paying for individual packets.  I then moved the account to their free option, and periodically (usually every 6 to 8 months) I move it back to the paid option (benefits on the shipping rate, which costs me about £12) make several orders, get them shipped to the UK, then once arrived, move it back to the free version again until I need it next.  NO connection other than as a customer, but they have worked well for me so far.  It also opens the door to US eBay purchases without using the Global Shipping option that costs far more money!

 

Rich

[40 058]

I’ve been having a look around on Flickr and youtube today, just for some ideas and inspiration. Found this video on YouTube,

 

Must be watched with volume up! They sound fantastic, especially for old video!

 

Yeah, ok. I’m never going to fit trains like that into my space am I!?

 

But, it definitely confirms to me Norfolk and Western is the way to go. They seemed to particularly known for coal traffic, aswell as pretty much all the usual freight, so I’m thinking about having a layout based around a coal loading scene/buildings. Walthers Cornerstone do a few very suitable kits for these as luck has it.

With maybe something else nearby to allow for box cars on the layout.

Of course it’ll never be able to handle big long trains, but it should be passable for a switching style layout, bringing in short rakes of hoppers, splitting them down and passing them through the coal loaders before reforming them for hauling back ‘off scene’. A bit of variety could be added with something to suit some box cars.

 

Does this sound passable?

 

Also, anyone able to advise about suitable hopper wagons? There seem to be a few different types and lengths. I’m guessing for a 60’s era layout older shorter ones would be most numerous?

 

[40 058]

@MarshLane

Thanks for the advice! Yes, I think DCC to start this will be best. Probably as you say, no sound at least for now though to keep costs down.

 

Ill have a look into Mech Models. Not somewhere I’m familiar with.

 

Ref the postage. That sounds like a good idea, and someone else actually mentioned similar via a PM so it sounds like plenty of people do it. Might be worth it in the long run, particularly as I can get my models and car parts etc over here that way!

 

[slow8dirty]

Coal in a small space? Mmm, have a look at the model railroader Virginian project layout. Ok it's not going to fit in your planned space but it has to appeal due to it's quart in a pint pot factor. 4'x8', 2 coal mines, several industry spots, a small yard, and managed not look like a trainset. A very American approach to presenting a model though if you understand my meaning.

https://www.trains.com/mrr/how-to/track-plan-database/the-virginian/

 

[davefromacrossthepond]

I've often thought that perhaps the most "flexible" U.S. prototype layout themes would be a 1950s/1960s urban scene - first generation diesels before the run of mergers. Most industrial type buildings kits on the market could arguably be used in Los Angeles, St. Louis, Chicago, Baltimore, Philadelphia, Newark, New York or Boston (with some minor usage of Rule 1). Thus you could run a number of various railroads somewhat convincingly on the same layout. Of course if you are wanting to limit locomotive purchases, then this would be a very bad idea. 

Dave

[dave1905]

1960's urban Chicago would be a great place to stage a layout, it could easily be shifted in era plus or minus 20 years by changing details like autos and rolling stock.  Plus an urban setting could be anyplace from Kansas City to Chicago to the Northeast (Boston to Washington) and most major cities in between.

 

Switch engines and local engines in more urban settings tended to be single unit trains.  US diesel control stands are set up to allow the engine to be operated in reverse fairly easily.  Single engine locals were common, they operated forwards on one leg of the trip and return running backwards.  In most cases engines in yards ran facing a direction where the engineer was on the same side as the switch stands on the lead, that way the engineer could see the switchmen, didn't matter whether the engine was facing forwards or backwards.

 

US roads interchanged cars with each other so virtually any railroad's cars could show up anywhere.  Plus a large percentage of the US fleet was privately owned (the car initials end in the letter X, as in UTLX).  In the 1960's about 1/5 of the US fleet was privately owned, by the 1990's about 1/2 the US fleet was privately owned.  The most mixed cars were boxcars.  The least mixed cars were open top hoppers.  

 

Chicago was a major junction point, as was St Louis, Kansas City, Memphis and New Orleans.    1960 was pretty much right before the major mergers and consolidations started and right before the US railroads REALLY got into financial trouble.

[mdvle]

23 hours ago, 40 058 said:

Yeah, ok. I’m never going to fit trains like that into my space am I!?

 

Easy to forget in these Covid times, but there is something called Free-Mo and there are some UK based ones - a search of this sub-forum should find postings from some of the get togethers.

 

That can offer the opportunity to not only meet new people, but to operate a temporary bigger layout - or even build a module that is a bit different than your shelf layout.

 

Something to consider.

 

23 hours ago, 40 058 said:

But, it definitely confirms to me Norfolk and Western is the way to go. They seemed to particularly known for coal traffic, aswell as pretty much all the usual freight, so I’m thinking about having a layout based around a coal loading scene/buildings. Walthers Cornerstone do a few very suitable kits for these as luck has it.

With maybe something else nearby to allow for box cars on the layout.

 

Don't know much about coal operations, but one thing to consider is that you won't get a variety of rolling stock - a coal mine served by N&W would be using almost exclusively N&W hoppers I would assume.

 

As for a boxcar - perhaps supplies for the mine?

 

A different take might be to model a coal dealer getting delivery of coal, where you might then be more able to justify different coal hoppers as they buy different grades of coal or perhaps find a better price.  This would have the option of also having other industries around for your boxcars or other freight cars.

 

23 hours ago, 40 058 said:

Also, anyone able to advise about suitable hopper wagons? There seem to be a few different types and lengths. I’m guessing for a 60’s era layout older shorter ones would be most numerous?

 

Bowser offers the N&W H-11 class hoppers, but this appears to be older tooling with molded on grab irons so may not be to your liking.  https://www.bowser-trains.com/history/100thopper.html

 

A quick look around reveals most newer models of coal hoppers seem to date from the 70s and later (the exception being the Rapido PRR GLa hopper), perhaps someone else knows of other options.

Edited August 24, 2021 by mdvle

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear RMWebbers,

 

Re "Coal on a shelf"

 

Google

- "Tony Koester Coal Fork Branch"

(Will need squeezing to fit your space, but useful guide)

 

- "Model Railroader Thin Branch"

(Could be a walk-up start, if it's straightened-out a little, from "L" to "I" format)

 

Also reccomend visiting the "Appalachian Railway Modeling" website, more Eastern Coal prototype and modelling info than you can fit in one lifetime...

https://appalachianrailroadmodeling.com/

 

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,

Prof Klyzlr

Edited August 25, 2021 by Prof Klyzlr

[40 058]

One more question, which appreciate isn’t specific to US outline, but since I’ve got this thread here…

 

If I go for DCC, which points/switches/turnouts would be best? Electrofrog or insulfrog?? 
On my OO layouts I usually go for insulfrog for simplicity, but with DCC (and a completely fresh start on this layout) would electrofrog be better? I’m just looking at Peco code 83 track to get a rough idea.

 

 

In other news, I’ve been clearing out the space in my model shed, packing things better to create the required space. It’s turned into a massive job! Three days so far! 
However, I’m hoping to be able to push the size up to a full length run of 16’, possibly with an additional 10’ section to make an L shape. Hopefully anyway. There’s still some stuff to move and store elsewhere but it’s getting there.

 

Oh, and I’ve tracked down a copy of Model Railroader Jan 12 which has a feature of the Virginian coal layout in one of the above posts. Coming from France so hopefully won’t be too long.

Edited August 26, 2021 by 40 058

[Alcanman]

I would highly recommend Electrofrog turnouts and also DCC. Nothing complicated about wiring Electofrog turnouts, just remember to fit 2 insulated fishplates at the frog.

[GW Jim]

Hiya 40 058.

 

Have a look at https://www.nmrabr.org.uk/ and see if there is any information that would be a help.

 

If you would like a few copies of our magazine The Roundhouse please PM me with your details and I will pop them into the mail along with copies of the NMRA standards. Also not used very much by our Members but, again may be some info here you may find helpful  https://nmrabr.org.uk/forum/

 

James Lucas.

NMRA British Region Registrar and Renewals Officer.

[Warspite]

On 23/08/2021 at 23:40, 40 058 said:

But, it definitely confirms to me Norfolk and Western is the way to go. They seemed to particularly known for coal traffic, as well as pretty much all the usual freight, so I’m thinking about having a layout based around a coal loading scene/buildings. Walthers Cornerstone do a few very suitable kits for these as luck has it.

 

Also, anyone able to advise about suitable hopper wagons? There seem to be a few different types and lengths. I’m guessing for a 60’s era layout older shorter ones would be most numerous?

 

I'm not sure if they still do them but Broadway Limited used to do a very nice N&W H2a coal hopper in HO. They did them in six packs and I got a pack a long time ago for a long-term N&W/Virginian coal mine project I hope to start one day. This is one of them. straight out of the box before I get round to weathering them. I believe the H2a 'triple' hoppers were the most populous N&W hoppers with 13,500 built.  

 

[40 058]

I’ll keep an eye out for some of those. 
I did bag a set of four of the similar Bachmann N&W quad hoppers off eBay. They don’t look to bad to be honest! Though for a coal layout I’ll certainly need far more, of different types.

 

So far I’ve managed to get myself a Rapido N&W Alco RS-11 and a Proto 2000 N&W SD9. These are due to be delivered any time now. 
Already here are the four Bachmann N&W hoppers, and a Proto 2000 N&W GP9.

That should see me good for locomotives for a while. 

Ive also got a Walthers coal mine kit coming in the post, so I’ll knock that up at some stage and use that as the main feature of the new layout.

 

In the meantime, I’ve cleared the shelf of stuff, added a few extra strengthening supports to it to make it more suitable as a layout baseboard instead of a shelf. One end of it wasn’t perfectly level either so I’ve sorted that now too. Only thing left in this respect is to make up a short section to fill the gap where an old cabinet was in between the two shelf sections. 
My total available space is 16’ x 2’ down one wall, and around 10’ x 2’ down the other wall, so together they will form an ‘L’ shaped end to end layout. I think that should be plenty big enough. Then I’ll come up with a track design.

 

Ill try to get a few pics in the next few days.

 

 

[mdvle]

Broadway Limited last did those hoppers in 2018 - https://www.broadway-limited.com/h2a3-bayhoppercars2018.aspx

 

A search on the product number and broadway limited brought up at least one retailer who still appears to have stock if you are interested in them.

 

You mentioned (I think) in the past about running other railroad locos on your layout - with your N&W coal layout there is an option - it falls into the it may never have happened in real life at a coal mine but was possible - and that would be to run locos painted for a railroad that the N&W bought/merged with.  In October 1964 N&W bought the Nickel Plate Road and the Wabash - so if your layout is set after 1964 then you could also run both locos and rolling stock from those 2 railroads as a they haven't been repainted yet scenario.

 

The following info only applies if you want to attempt to be era correct on your paint schemes.

 

They did 2 different paint schemes in 2018 - 17" and 24".

 

Looking at the N&W Historical Society website for decals(*) indicates that the 17" lettering was 1930s-1952, 24" from 1952-1963 (of course those are dates when those paint schemes were new, so both would have existed in service long past the final date, though obviously the further you get from that final date the fewer there would be).

 

* - http://www.nwhs.org/commissary/decals.html

 

This site gives the dates for the loco paint schemes (which I am assuming are correct)

 

http://www.hosam.com/roads/nw.html

[dave1905]

On 23/08/2021 at 07:51, John M Upton said:

E and F units are an interesting case. Inflexible compared with hood units and usually formed in pairs or more with cabs outermost, sometimes with cabless B units tucked inside. 

 

If it were required, how did an E or F unit run in reverse?

Same way any unit was run in reverse.  The engineer looks the other way and sticks his head out the window.