LNER 1930s mainline running direction question

[Captain_Mumbles]

Gday all!!

Firstly, my apologies as I am certain this has been asked many times before. As I am not even sure what the terminology of such a convention is named so I don't even know what to search for! I am just an aeroplane mechanic and also located on the other side of the planet so I havn't spent my life with it in my back yard...

I am about to build my 2nd layout in a 9ft by 18ft room. My first layout was a figure 8 ish water wings corner thing and I loved it. But unfortunately had to break it up as it didn't fit in the new place. Now I have more room that I have ever had I want to do it some justice.

If I am modelling the 1930s and 40s LNER on a 4 track main line which way do the trains go?

If i am modelling a 2 track main with a 3rd line, did that even happen?

The answer will most likely change how I think about my design. So I thank you so much in advance for any of your advice.

Cheers!!!

Ben

Edited August 21, 2021 by Captain_Mumbles

[LMS2968]

I don't know for the LNER but the LMS could use any of the top three. The first is paired by use, i.e. a pair of Fast lines and a pair of Slow or Goods lines. The next two are paired by direction, i.e. Up Fast and Up Slow; and Down Fast and Down Slow.  The gap between pairs of running lines was referred to as the 'Ten Foot', but that wasn't necessarily the distance.

 

The layout varied with the location.

[TheSignalEngineer]

2 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

The layout varied with the location.

And the time of conversion to 4-track. East Coast Main Line tended to have either of the paired by direction versions on long open country stretches.

Areas where there were frequent junctions and a lot of local services such as the GE near to London, GN around Leeds sometimes had pairs by use such as Main and Goods,  Fast and Slow, especially if the latter fed a branch. 

Whether the 10 foot was one in the middle or two on either side of the centre lines depended on how widening took place, two new tracks down one side or one each side.

[Wickham Green too]

I'm sure there were places where there was a third line ........ it quite probably be goods only and maybe worked on permissive block where freight coal traffic necessitated it - unlikely to be reversibly worked as empty coal trains were less of a hindrance to other services.

The other scenario for a third line would be for a branch line which diverged 'off scene' - and this could be passenger rated and reversible : I can't think of any LNER examples, off hand, but the tracks between ( the former ) Knockmore Junction and Lisburn are arranged thus.  

[Steamport Southport]

Didn't some of the GCR station have sections where they were designed for four tracks but the 3rd and 4th weren't always installed?

 

Some did get a third track I seem to recall.

 

 

Jason

[Captain_Mumbles]

12 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

And the time of conversion to 4-track. East Coast Main Line tended to have either of the paired by direction versions on long open country stretches.

Areas where there were frequent junctions and a lot of local services such as the GE near to London, GN around Leeds sometimes had pairs by use such as Main and Goods,  Fast and Slow, especially if the latter fed a branch. 

Whether the 10 foot was one in the middle or two on either side of the centre lines depended on how widening took place, two new tracks down one side or one each side.

15 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

I don't know for the LNER but the LMS could use any of the top three. The first is paired by use, i.e. a pair of Fast lines and a pair of Slow or Goods lines. The next two are paired by direction, i.e. Up Fast and Up Slow; and Down Fast and Down Slow.  The gap between pairs of running lines was referred to as the 'Ten Foot', but that wasn't necessarily the distance.

 

The layout varied with the location.

 

11 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

I'm sure there were places where there was a third line ........ it quite probably be goods only and maybe worked on permissive block where freight coal traffic necessitated it - unlikely to be reversibly worked as empty coal trains were less of a hindrance to other services.

The other scenario for a third line would be for a branch line which diverged 'off scene' - and this could be passenger rated and reversible : I can't think of any LNER examples, off hand, but the tracks between ( the former ) Knockmore Junction and Lisburn are arranged thus.  

 

8 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Didn't some of the GCR station have sections where they were designed for four tracks but the 3rd and 4th weren't always installed?

 

Some did get a third track I seem to recall.

 

 

Jason

 

This help so much thanks!!!

It doesn't help that I am a sucker for when a really slow goods taking its time gets blown into the weeds by an express going in the same direction and that I love both large and small locos.

 

[Andrea506]

9 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Didn't some of the GCR station have sections where they were designed for four tracks but the 3rd and 4th weren't always installed?

 

Some did get a third track I seem to recall.

 

 

Jason

That's one of the reasons why the GC was built with island platforms. Adding additional lines didn't require stations to be rebuilt. Had the original plans come to fruition it would have been slow lines in the middle serving the stations with fast lines running on the outside.

[TheSignalEngineer]

You will find some clues here as to what existed here. https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/lnerdiagrams.htm

The diagrams are low-res thumbnails, so a bit small but enough to give you the idea.

 

There are more diagrams available here https://signalbox.org/track-layouts/by-railway-company/

 

If there are signals in the interval between lines in the same direction it will be top right. If both signals are on a bracket outside the lines it will be top centre.

Edited August 22, 2021 by TheSignalEngineer

[Captain_Mumbles]

22 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

You will find some clues here as to what existed here. https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/lnerdiagrams.htm

The diagrams are low-res thumbnails, so a bit small but enough to give you the idea.

 

There are more diagrams available here https://signalbox.org/track-layouts/by-railway-company/

 

If there are signals in the interval between lines in the same direction it will be top right. If both signals are on a bracket outside the lines it will be top centre.

OKay, WOW that is a lot of info. So what I take home from all this is we must have up and down going the right way and all the others do their best but go the way they need to, to work. That kind of means it goes the way it can on my trainset?

[009 micro modeller]

On 21/08/2021 at 10:54, Wickham Green too said:

The other scenario for a third line would be for a branch line which diverged 'off scene' - and this could be passenger rated and reversible : I can't think of any LNER examples, off hand, but the tracks between ( the former ) Knockmore Junction and Lisburn are arranged thus.  

 

Didn’t the GNR/LNER branches from Hatfield to Hertford and Dunstable run up either side of the ECML to diverge at Welwyn Garden City?

[jwealleans]

Yes.  

[Michael Hodgson]

Those were effectively two independent single track lines running one on each side of the four track east coast main line (paired by direction) as far as Welwyn Garden City where their routes diverged.  At Digswell Junction, just north of Welwyn Garden City, the main line drops to double track over Digswell Viaduct and through the two Welwyn tunnels where it opens out to four track again.  So over a fairly short distance the line changes from 6-tracks to two.

 

There is currently some three track, most of the route from Holme Junction to Huntingdon - seen here at Abbots Ripton famous for the 1876 accident to the Flying Scotsman in a blizzard which caused lower quadrant signals to fall out of favour:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbots_Ripton_railway_station#/media/File:Abbots_Ripton_station_site_geograph-3247131-by-Ben-Brooksbank.jpg

 

If you want to model the 1930s, you need to be aware of Britain's equivalent of the USA's "New Deal" to overcome the 1920s Great Depression.  The UK government facilitated a New Works programme which created useful jobs for the unemployed by improving national infrastructure, part of which was the quadrupling of what had been double track of the southern part of LNER's East Coast route.

[jonny777]

Another 3-track section was from Grantham to High Dyke sidings. The third track was on the up side and was used by goods trains climbing up towards Stoke Tunnel. There was no down equivalent, presumably because it was downhill all the way to Grantham South and the faster running goods trains in that direction could be fitted in between the expresses?