W&M railbus failure

[SweenyTod1]

On Thursday last my railbus was happily was running round my friend's layout. After several circuits I reversed it and very soon emitted a knocking sound, slowed down to a crawl then stopped. I removed the wheelsets to discover a split axle gear on one end, which would not grip, understandably. Placing the bus back on the track the lights work fine in either directional power applied, but no go, not even a hum of the motor. I have yet to venture into the disassemble procedure to see if the motor has died or a wire come off etc. The instructions show me how to get inside, removing horns to get at screws which seems to be very complicated compared with other models access procedure. So apart from the duff gear and a possible dead motor is there any other likely cause to resolve. Also does Heljan have a UK based service centre I can contact for the necessary spares or can send the unit to be fixed please?

Any help and advice most welcome.

Tod

[stewartingram]

For what it is worth, I had almost the same problem 2-3 years ago. The railbus had been mostly stored, with a little test running on the partially built layout. I found a split gear, which eventually jammed solid. I also had some bits drop off, most of these I glued back on, but had lost a couple of suspension units/axleboxes.

I made contact with a very helpful guy at Howes, who were them the importers, and spares suppliers. He was running short of spares, but had a "xmas tree" that he was cannibalising, and provided all I needed for a nominal sum. Suffice to say the repairs went well, in fact he supplied slightly more than I needed so I have the odd bits for future use.

Now of course the importer/spaes supplier has changed, Gaugemaster I believe? And I'e heard the spares supply is not as good. I suspect no knowledgeable helpful guy cannibalising models, but just a small stock of  parts as I've heard? Best to contact them and ask though.

Mine also went back together a lot simpler. No lights, pcb, dcc wiring etc. I keep it simple.

 

Stewart

[Izzy]

Can you remove the duff axle and try running it by holding power wires- DC or DCC - to the other wheels to see if it runs while having it upside down? This should show if the motor is still okay. I would think it should be. Split gears like this are fairly common these days with a lot of RTR. 
 

I suggest this because getting to the motor requires stripping the railbus right down, taking the body and chassis to bits, so to be avoided if at all possible. If you can just remove the duff gear I have read of others just running with the one geared axle quite successfully. The weight of them probably helps here.

[Halvarras]

1 hour ago, Izzy said:

Can you remove the duff axle and try running it by holding power wires- DC or DCC - to the other wheels to see if it runs while having it upside down? This should show if the motor is still okay. I would think it should be. Split gears like this are fairly common these days with a lot of RTR. 
 

I suggest this because getting to the motor requires stripping the railbus right down, taking the body and chassis to bits, so to be avoided if at all possible. If you can just remove the duff gear I have read of others just running with the one geared axle quite successfully. The weight of them probably helps here.

 

Good idea. With things like this I always start at the heart of the matter - the motor - and if that's OK work outwards from there. If the gear is knackered anyway there's nothing to be lost by removing it completely, by whatever means necessary, and try running it with one powered axle. It's not as if the vast majority of railbus owners will ever ask it to haul anything. Definitely worth a try. (I have the AC Cars and Park Royal versions, they were OK the last time I checked, although the PR has always been a bit 'lumpy' in one direction.......)

 

Note that many owners of Dapol class 121/2 'Bubble Cars' have found that their units run better with drive to one bogie disconnected, so there's a kind of precedent. It amuses me that one of the most powerful 4mm haulers is Heljan's Class 128 parcels unit!

[SweenyTod1]

Thanks for your responses, most helpful, especially the info on Gaugemaster. Many moons ago, I was their Southern area sale rep, but didn't last due to a foot injury, as you will realise meant a lot of legwork, often not able to park my van anywhere near the shops I visited!! Anyway, water under the bridge,  so I will start to investigate, starting with the duff gear, though with the lights working, power is getting to those from the track, a mystery  for sure. Assuming it is DCC ready, there must be a blanking board lurking somewhere in the bowels of this beast. I have experienced a fault with a Hornby loco whereby the tender was rewired to bypass all of the DCC bit. It works a treat  since. I may end up doing the same to this one, but we shall see. Progress will be slow as I'm heading to Scotland soon, so may have to wait until my return. More anon.

Tod 

 

[Halvarras]

4 hours ago, stewartingram said:

 

Mine also went back together a lot simpler. No lights, pcb, dcc wiring etc. I keep it simple.

 

 

Hah! I was nearly reduced to this action by a Dapol Class 22 which would sit on the track all lights glazing but no motor action. I'd take the lid off, loosen the circuit board, poke about with a cocktail stick for any obvious loose wires, it would start working so I'd put it away thinking I'd somehow fixed it - and the next time I got it out it was the same again. Power directly to the motor showed that was fine, so I seriously considered stripping out all of the electronic gubbins (not bothered about lights and don't do DCC) but just in time discovered a dry solder joint on one of the motor's carbon brush holders. It's OK now. Well, it was the last time I ran it......

[Dave47549]

.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Dave47549
Removed pointless guff

[Hal Nail]

I'm sure there was a thread on this before, or a section in one of the numerous threads on split gears,  but I just cant find it. Anyway the upshot was there arent any spares left of the Heljan driven railcar wheelsets unfortunately 

Edited August 22, 2021 by Hal Nail

[PJT]

On 21/08/2021 at 15:46, SweenyTod1 said:

Any help and advice most welcome.

 

Ultrascale do replacement brass final drive gears (axle gears) for the Heljan OO railbuses - I used them on my W&M railbus, to very good effect.  See:

https://www.ultrascale.uk/eshop/products/view/CAT015/557

 

If you ask nicely, they also do the idler/intermediate gears in brass too.  The idlers weren't shown on the Ultrascale website at the time and, knowing Gaugemaster had zero stock of any of the railbus gears at the time I wanted them, I went into a flat spin when I realised that I needed to replace an idler gear that had lost a couple of teeth as well as the split final drive gear.  I contacted David at Ultrascale to see if he could make a replacement for the idler if I sent him a sample, to which he replied that actually he had the idlers in stock but hadn't got around to putting them on the website yet.  Result!  My railbus now has brass idlers and final drive gears and, while it's marginally noisier in my opinion, the noise level is very acceptable and the railbus runs as smoothly as it would have done before the gear problems.  The noise may reduce even further with more running, but I'm not bothered if it doesn't because it really isn't an issue anyway.

 

Fitting a brass idler gear is no problem, since it should have a small clearance fit on its shaft and is supplied with the shaft anyway (at least, mine were).  The brass final drive gear requires a method of fixing it very securely to the axle, since it can be pushed on to the axle merely by hand (quite tightly, but not tightly enough).  There are several methods you could use of varying degrees of integrity, one of the simplest being to file a small flat on the axle and use a tiny bead of Araldite to secure the gear over the flat.  It's worked fine for me. 

 

Oh, I nearly forgot: once ordered, the gears arrived within a couple of weeks.  I can't remember exactly how long it was, but it really wasn't long - and, to be honest, it was a pleasingly small time when you consider that before contacting Ultrascale I'd been facing a situation of no genuine Heljan nylon gears being available from Gaugemaster (or Howes, the previous Heljan spares supplier) and no indication of when they might become available again.

 

Pete T.

 

 

Edited August 22, 2021 by PJT
Forgot to mention timescale

[SweenyTod1]

Thanks very much Pete. I will do that, but I need to establish the motor failure, as without that going, I can't test it. I'm away from home for a few weeks, this week, so I may not get the opportunity to open up the body before the family visit to Scotland. I'm hoping its a simple solder job, but while I'm doing that I will attend to the gear issue.  Thanks again,

Tod

[Hal Nail]

Quite a bit in here including photo of the mechanism and chat about gear splitting and faults 

 

 

[Halvarras]

15 hours ago, PJT said:

 

Ultrascale do replacement brass final drive gears (axle gears) for the Heljan OO railbuses - I used them on my W&M railbus, to very good effect.  See:

https://www.ultrascale.uk/eshop/products/view/CAT015/557

 

If you ask nicely, they also do the idler/intermediate gears in brass too.  The idlers weren't shown on the Ultrascale website at the time and, knowing Gaugemaster had zero stock of any of the railbus gears at the time I wanted them, I went into a flat spin when I realised that I needed to replace an idler gear that had lost a couple of teeth as well as the split final drive gear.  I contacted David at Ultrascale to see if he could make a replacement for the idler if I sent him a sample, to which he replied that actually he had the idlers in stock but hadn't got around to putting them on the website yet.  Result!  My railbus now has brass idlers and final drive gears and, while it's marginally noisier in my opinion, the noise level is very acceptable and the railbus runs as smoothly as it would have done before the gear problems.  The noise may reduce even further with more running, but I'm not bothered if it doesn't because it really isn't an issue anyway.

 

Fitting a brass idler gear is no problem, since it should have a small clearance fit on its shaft and is supplied with the shaft anyway (at least, mine were).  The brass final drive gear requires a method of fixing it very securely to the axle, since it can be pushed on to the axle merely by hand (quite tightly, but not tightly enough).  There are several methods you could use of varying degrees of integrity, one of the simplest being to file a small flat on the axle and use a tiny bead of Araldite to secure the gear over the flat.  It's worked fine for me. 

 

Oh, I nearly forgot: once ordered, the gears arrived within a couple of weeks.  I can't remember exactly how long it was, but it really wasn't long - and, to be honest, it was a pleasingly small time when you consider that before contacting Ultrascale I'd been facing a situation of no genuine Heljan nylon gears being available from Gaugemaster (or Howes, the previous Heljan spares supplier) and no indication of when they might become available again.

 

Pete T.

 

 

 

As the owner of two Heljan railbuses this is very good to know, so many thanks for posting Pete. With all such railbus production now 'out there' with this known vulnerability lurking and little evidence of parts back-up from the manufacturer*, to date at least, it's good to know there's a solution. Sounds like David needs to keep a few in stock........I should go check my pair, I might need them myself!

 

*begs the question, if replacement gears from Heljan were unchanged in manufacture would they suffer the same problem down the line? Might make the decision over which set of replacement gears to go for easier.......

[PJT]

9 minutes ago, Neil Phillips said:

As the owner of two Heljan railbuses this is very good to know, so many thanks for posting Pete.

 

You're welcome, Neil. 

 

You know, I bought my railbus as a non-runner and, knowing something of the history of the Heljan railbuses, I suspected one or both of the final drive gears were split.  However, what I wasn't prepared for was the damage to one of the idler gears as well.  Looking back on it, I strongly suspect that a previous owner had persisted in trying to run the railbus even though there was clearly an issue with the drive (which must have been audible as a loud clonk every wheel revolution, together with either very slow and juddering motion, or no motion at all) and as a result the incorrectly spaced teeth either side of the split on the final drive gear created the damage to the idler.

 

A little sympathy a bit earlier might well have kept the replacement parts down to final drive gears only, instead of idlers as well.

 

Incidentally, for those who haven't done it before, accessing the gears to check them could hardly be easier: two cast cover plates can be unscrewed underneath the railbus, then the axles and idlers can be simply lifted out for inspection.

 

Pete T.

 

 

    

[SweenyTod1]

Strange, I got a message from Hattons announcing a forthcoming re-release of the W&M railbus yesterday on my phone, Even more expensive than the original release!! My one is away for repair, but if the ad is genuine, I do hope it has a more reliable motor capable of driving an excessively heavy model? The weight may have been part of the motor killing process! With the cost of my original and the expected cost to repair, I do hope my one may enjoy a reasonable lifespan. The person at Heljan who designed the railbus probably enjoys weightlifting...........................................................................?

 

Tod

[No Decorum]

On 25/09/2021 at 16:27, SweenyTod1 said:

Strange, I got a message from Hattons announcing a forthcoming re-release of the W&M railbus yesterday on my phone, Even more expensive than the original release!! My one is away for repair, but if the ad is genuine, I do hope it has a more reliable motor capable of driving an excessively heavy model? The weight may have been part of the motor killing process! With the cost of my original and the expected cost to repair, I do hope my one may enjoy a reasonable lifespan. The person at Heljan who designed the railbus probably enjoys weightlifting...........................................................................?

 

Tod

Weight is good for electrical contact with the rail as well as for haulage capacity, although the latter isn’t relevant to these. Good electrical contact is particularly important for four-wheel models. That, of course, does not invalidate your point that the motor may not be up to the job.

[cessna152towser]

Sorry to hear this.   I believe the motor isn't up to the job as the railbus is quite a heavy model.   I bought the Heljan Park Royal railbus.   Unfortunately the steps got damaged when placing it back in the box after its first test run.   I glued the steps.  After a few slow runs on my short fiddle yard to branch terminus layout the railbus expired in a puff of smoke, first time I opened up the controller to above half speed.    After sales service from both the retailer and Heljan was non-existent.  If I had not damaged the steps I would have taken the matter further with trading standards as an item not fit for purpose.  As things stood, I resold it on eBay as a non-runner for half the price which I paid.   I will never again buy a motorized Heljan item.

[Hal Nail]

28 minutes ago, cessna152towser said:

If I had not damaged the steps I would have taken the matter further with trading standards 

Other threads have suggested that damage or even modifications don't actually invalidate your position if it is a completely different part that fails. (eg fitting DCC which obviously involves opening the body, wouldn't affect your position if the drive gears failed).

 

Would be good to know definitively if that is in fact the case.

 

It may simply depend on the individual retailer of course although that is all the more reason for picking a good one.

 

 

Edited October 24, 2021 by Hal Nail

[SweenyTod1]

I thought it time to bring you all up to date. I'm very grateful for your replies of course, but I did get my railbus repaired. It was quite expensive, as it was a seriously sick puppy. New motor, circuit board and replacement final drive gears, via a personal contact, but pleased to say that it runs beautifully now as it should.

I presume Heljan read these posts, if not, they should! Their quality control/assurance department  needs to be overhauled as this is not the first model with defects to be discussed on these pages. I have one other Heljan loco, a Class16, which, so far is Ok. That's probably a "kiss of death" , but we live in hope that it's not!

So there we are, I started this little saga and time to be ending my input now. As far as I know, Gaugemaster has or can get spares, I understand that's where mine were obtained from via a third party. Expensive yes, but It suited my needs. The gears can be obtained from Ultrascale, as has been said already by Halvarras.

Happy modelling girls and boys,

 

 

Tod

[Halvarras]

11 hours ago, SweenyTod1 said:

The gears can be obtained from Ultrascale, as has been said already by Halvarras.

 

Actually it was PJT (Pete T) who flagged up the availability, I was merely expressing gratitude for the heads-up in case either, or both, of mine ever need 'seeing to' (still haven't checked 'em yet, too busy doing other things.....)

[SweenyTod1]

Apologies to PJT and yourself Halvarras. Thank you both for your guidance, which gave me a satisfactory outcome, a model working, as it should.

 

Tod

[rorz101uk]

On 22/08/2021 at 22:11, PJT said:

 

Ultrascale do replacement brass final drive gears (axle gears) for the Heljan OO railbuses - I used them on my W&M railbus, to very good effect.  See:

https://www.ultrascale.uk/eshop/products/view/CAT015/557

 

If you ask nicely, they also do the idler/intermediate gears in brass too.  The idlers weren't shown on the Ultrascale website at the time and, knowing Gaugemaster had zero stock of any of the railbus gears at the time I wanted them, I went into a flat spin when I realised that I needed to replace an idler gear that had lost a couple of teeth as well as the split final drive gear.  I contacted David at Ultrascale to see if he could make a replacement for the idler if I sent him a sample, to which he replied that actually he had the idlers in stock but hadn't got around to putting them on the website yet.  Result!  My railbus now has brass idlers and final drive gears and, while it's marginally noisier in my opinion, the noise level is very acceptable and the railbus runs as smoothly as it would have done before the gear problems.  The noise may reduce even further with more running, but I'm not bothered if it doesn't because it really isn't an issue anyway.

 

Fitting a brass idler gear is no problem, since it should have a small clearance fit on its shaft and is supplied with the shaft anyway (at least, mine were).  The brass final drive gear requires a method of fixing it very securely to the axle, since it can be pushed on to the axle merely by hand (quite tightly, but not tightly enough).  There are several methods you could use of varying degrees of integrity, one of the simplest being to file a small flat on the axle and use a tiny bead of Araldite to secure the gear over the flat.  It's worked fine for me. 

 

Oh, I nearly forgot: once ordered, the gears arrived within a couple of weeks.  I can't remember exactly how long it was, but it really wasn't long - and, to be honest, it was a pleasingly small time when you consider that before contacting Ultrascale I'd been facing a situation of no genuine Heljan nylon gears being available from Gaugemaster (or Howes, the previous Heljan spares supplier) and no indication of when they might become available again.

 

Pete T.

 

 

looks like I’ll be giving them a call so I can my railbus working, any chance of a few pictures of the new gears in the model? 

[PJT]

6 minutes ago, rorz101uk said:

any chance of a few pictures of the new gears in the model? 

 

Morning Rory,

 

I'll photograph it for you this evening at some point.

 

Pete T.

 

[PJT]

 

On 14/03/2022 at 11:47, rorz101uk said:

any chance of a few pictures of the new gears in the model? 

 

Ultrascale intermediate gear and shaft installed:

 

...and the new Ultrascale final drive gear installed on the original axle:

 

The replacement of gears on the other railbus axle is simply a mirror image of this one.

 

I'm not exactly a great close-up photographer, but I hope that helps anyway.

 

Pete T.

 

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by PJT

[rorz101uk]

Has he the other great as well? I’m assuming they are push fit with some force?

[PJT]

7 minutes ago, rorz101uk said:

Has he the other great as well? I’m assuming they are push fit with some force?

 

As far as I knew at the time Ultrascale didn't do the twin gear that meshes with the motor worm; maybe they do now.  You'd have to ask them.  I have to say my railbus works very nicely with brass final drive gears, brass intermediates and nylon twin gears.

 

As I said further up the page, the intermediate gear has a clearance fit on its shaft (it's supplied with the shaft), so it is free to rotate on it - which is just fine.  The brass final drive gear needs securing to the axle; while it's a tight-ish hand-push fit onto the axle, its grip on the axle is not enough on its own.  You will need to secure it in place - my method is to file/grind a flat onto the axle, creating a small gap where a tiny fillet of Araldite can bind both to the flat and the bore of the gear.  That's enough to lock it in place, for me anyway. 

 

When you remove the damaged nylon final drive gear from the axle, you will find there are three (from memory) thrust washers either side of the gear, governing the sideways float of the axle/gear assembly.  Refit the washers selectively on the axle either side of the new brass gear, test fitting the axle/gear assembly in its housing in the railbus chassis to ensure you neither have too much float, nor so little float that the gear and axle pinch in the housing and don't run freely.  As it happens, I ended up using the same quantity of washers with the new brass gear as were used with the old nylon one, but you shouldn't take it for granted you'll use the same number.

 

Pete T.