LSWR horsebox lettering

[sir douglas]

I am currently scratchbuilding a LSW 16ft horsebox, i have some photos from the web but they are all SR era, so i am asking about the lettering, what font what size and where on the vehicle, am i right in assuming they were painted in the goods brown? and so would the lettering also be the same as on wagons

 

dont mind the brown being wrong, its not done yet

[Skinnylinny]

First of all, that's looking fantastic! I'm currently working on one in 4mm scale, so I'm familiar enough with the type.

Horseboxes were classed as Coaching Stock rather than goods stock, so would have been painted in the carriage brown rather than the goods stock brown in LSWR days, with (I believe) white lettering (might be gold, I can't find my references at the moment).

A photo of a very nice model of one can be found on the Scalefour Society website as part of their Socially Distanced Challenge:

http://scalefournorth.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Andy-Westcott-1.jpg

[Steamport Southport]

ISTR it was the carriage brown. The same colour as the bottom panel on the coaches. I believe the shade was Umber, so the same as Pullmans and LBSC locos.

 

For transfers try the HMRS sheet I think the relevant ones are on there. If not I think Fox might do them.

 

https://hmrs.org.uk/transfers/sr-maunsell-loco-and-coach-insignia-inc-lswr-but-not-crest-150373.html

 

 

Jason

[watfordtmc]

Very nice modelling there.

 

Having a couple of the Gordon Weddell books to hand I took a look through to see what they had to say about livery.  Not very informative …

 

The section on Horse Boxes and Carriage Trucks (Ref 1) has this to say about livery:

“… there is no information anywhere about the livery, although from photos later than about 1880, they all look to have been painted carriage brown (though possibly without the many coats of varnish) and all lettering looks to have been white.”

 

Two observations here, a) I would suggest that horseboxes would have received some varnishing, even if not the number of coats applied to passenger carrying stock, and b) vanish technology was not as advanced as today, so that the varnish itself would have had a ‘tint’ which would then add colour to the paint and lettering.

 

There is a good ‘official’ of 21’ horse box LSWR 193 in Ref 1 which, to my eyes, suggests that the finish included some varnish.  The lettering was very plain and unshaded.  It also doesn’t look quite white which I suspect is the effect of the varnish.

 

The image linked by @Skinnylinny is a good guide to the finish of these horse boxes.

 

This begs the question of what colour brown was coaching brown of course.

I would expect the definitive guide to be this which I believe Gordon Weddell contributed to.  Might be worth trying to look over a copy.

 

Otherwise Gordon Weddell had this to say (quoting Sam Fay) “All carriages were of a chocolate colour …”  Gordon Weddell adds “At the time ‘chocolate’ probably meant the medium warm brown colour of chocolate powder …”  (Ref 2)

 

Elsewhere Gordon Weddell refers to a pair of carriages dating from the late 1870’s which after withdrawal were converted into a dwelling.

In 1990 when the dwelling had to be demolished, the opportunity was taken to scrape back the paintwork to the LSWR colours:

“The main colours on both vehicles were as expected (!) …  The brown in the lower panels was a fairly dark warm brown but, where the varnish survived over it, it appeared so dark as to be almost black.” (Ref 2)

 

Make what you will of that!

 

References

1. LSWR Carriages Volume 3 Non-Passenger Carriage Stock, Weddell G, Kestrel Railway Books 2005.
2. LSWR Carriages Volume One 1838-1900, Weddell G, Wild Swan (Didcot) 1992.

 

Regards

TMc

23/08/2021

 

[Tony Cane]

The HMRS livery register confirms that horse boxes were in all over brown livery.

The lettering is stated to be in gilt with the company initials above the number on the drop flap.

size of lettering on this type of vehicle said to vary fron 2.5 inches to 7 inches.

[jwealleans]

Interesting.   All of the LSWR horse boxes on Ron Rising's layout at Ormesby are painted green.   The only brown one is his model of the LBSCR 6 wheeler.

 

Did the livery change late in the day (the layout is 1917-22) or is this a mistake?

[Tony Cane]

From the HMRS livery register the details of what is termed the sage green sceme are as follows.

Introduced in 1915, and extended to all coaches in 1922.  The horse boxes were now painted green, with the lettering moved to the grooms door and made smaller.