TRANSFORMERS

[melvin]

Have been reading the importance of Smooth Track Power. In particular the suggestions from DCC Concepts. Of which i understand. The question is. Surely all manufacturers of Digital Control would supply a transformer that is Smooth. ?  Look foward to comment. Merlin.

[melmerby]

2 minutes ago, melvin said:

Have been reading the importance of Smooth Track Power. In particular the suggestions from DCC Concepts. Of which i understand. The question is. Surely all manufacturers of Digital Control would supply a transformer that is Smooth. ?  Look foward to comment. Merlin.

Do you understand what a transformer is?

Smooth is not a feature I would append to a transformer (unless it is in a nice smooth case!)

[SamThomas]

Transformers are as "smooth" as the mains supply going into them & that is neither smooth or consistant. A transformer will change A/C voltage to another A/C voltage.

 

What is needed is a power supply (or PSU) - like the black thing you plug into a laptop to charge the battery. These are very "smooth" devices. and will provide you with a DC supply oof 12/15/18volts or whatever they have been designed for.

 

Unfortunatly, many people confuse the two.

 

note : although there are many other types of transformers & PSU's in the world I am simply referring to those in use for model railways.

[melmerby]

36 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

 

 

What is needed is a power supply (or PSU) - like the black thing you plug into a laptop to charge the battery. These are very "smooth" devices. and will provide you with a DC supply oof 12/15/18volts or whatever they have been designed for.

 

 

Depends on the system

A Lenz system just has a mains transformer, all the rectification, smoothing and track voltage setting is done in the Command Station.

However a Digikeijs DR5000 uses a laptop power supply, adjustable on the later versions to set the track voltage.

The Roco Z21 uses a fixed voltage DC supply, voltage adjustment is done in the main unit.

[kev]

I find some of these answers rude those that know electronics will ask for  PSU those that do not would ask for a transformer so please think a bit before you reply after all we were all novices once

[jpendle]

Hi,

 

Are you referring to this :-

 

"It’s not commonly understood, but even the digital systems that show the use of AC power supplies in their manuals actually run on DC internally… and what you may also not know is that while AC power supplies may be lower cost, they also give ZERO protection from inevitable voltage surges and level changes, increasing the possibility of system damage!"

 

And the other stuff on that particular page?

 

It's classic sales F.U.D. (Fear, Uncertainty, & Doubt). What is said is true, but not necessarily relevant to what you are doing, and is designed to make you worry about the power supply that came with the DCC system that you bought.

 

As long as you have purchased a decent DCC system then there is no need to swap out the supplied mains power supply, be it a transformer or PSU, that came with it.

 

Regards,

 

John P

 

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

51 minutes ago, kev said:

.....those that know electronics will ask for a PSU   those that do not would ask for a transformer.....

 

I'm not so sure about that.

In general everyday use, the term 'transformer" seems to be rather archaic.

The general populace have been used to plugging in, or charging various devices like mobile phones, computers and all manner of electrical devices, for 20, 30 or more years, using what are commonly referred to as "power supplies'. also described in virtually all instructions as "power supplies".

At a guess, I would have thought  "power supply" to be the default for the unknowing?

 

 

Have we answered Melvin's original question yet?

 

 

.

.

[melmerby]

24 minutes ago, jpendle said:

Hi,

 

Are you referring to this :-

 

"It’s not commonly understood, but even the digital systems that show the use of AC power supplies in their manuals actually run on DC internally… and what you may also not know is that while AC power supplies may be lower cost, they also give ZERO protection from inevitable voltage surges and level changes, increasing the possibility of system damage!"

 

And the other stuff on that particular page?

 

It's classic sales F.U.D. (Fear, Uncertainty, & Doubt). What is said is true, but not necessarily relevant to what you are doing, and is designed to make you worry about the power supply that came with the DCC system that you bought.

 

As long as you have purchased a decent DCC system then there is no need to swap out the supplied mains power supply, be it a transformer or PSU, that came with it.

 

Regards,

 

John P

 

 

I'd go further.

IMHO That's misleading twaddle!

Edited August 22, 2021 by melmerby

[melmerby]

3 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

Have we answered Melvin's original question yet?

 

3 hours ago, melvin said:

Have been reading the importance of Smooth Track Power. In particular the suggestions from DCC Concepts. Of which i understand. The question is. Surely all manufacturers of Digital Control would supply a transformer that is Smooth. ?  Look foward to comment. Merlin.

The information you have read and has caused your query is far from clear and concise and will cause confusion.

A transformer cannot be classed as smooth as it just changes one AC voltage to another. Typically Mains to 12v-18v for model railways

As I posted earlier DCC systems have various forms of power input, either AC or DC, so there is no hard or fast rule.

As John P has said, just get the item recommended by the DCC system manufacturer. None of them are "bad"

[SamThomas]

1 hour ago, jpendle said:

As long as you have purchased a decent DCC system then there is no need to swap out the supplied mains power supply, be it a transformer or PSU, that came with it.

Not always - the Roco Z21 for example* comes with a 3a PSU for 3a of track power, however, change that for a 5a PSU & you get 5a of track power **

* mine did anyway.

** subject to losses in the command station.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, SamThomas said:

Not always - the Roco Z21 for example* comes with a 3a PSU for 3a of track power, however, change that for a 5a PSU & you get 5a of track power **

* mine did anyway.

** subject to losses in the command station.

Was there anything actually wrong with the original supply though? No.

The instructions say the overload trip is 3.2A

 

Maybe you should have bought an XL instead which is 6A?

Edited August 22, 2021 by melmerby

[SamThomas]

9 hours ago, melmerby said:

Was there anything actually wrong with the original supply though? No.

The instructions say the overload trip is 3.2A

 

Maybe you should have bought an XL instead which is 6A?

Clearly, you did not read my post correctly - I did NOT say there was anything wrong with the 3a PSU - just commented on jpendles comment that there is no need to change the PSU that comes with the system.

 

FWIW the 3a PSU was not sufficient for my layout but the Z21 was fine with the 5a PSU. The layout has since been divided into 2 x power districts with a Lenz Booster for each.

Edited August 23, 2021 by SamThomas

[Suzie]

15 hours ago, melvin said:

Have been reading the importance of Smooth Track Power. In particular the suggestions from DCC Concepts. Of which i understand. The question is. Surely all manufacturers of Digital Control would supply a transformer that is Smooth. ?  Look foward to comment. Merlin.

 

Melvin's question is all in bold, a little bit shouty to start with.

 

15 hours ago, melvin said:

Look foward to comment.

 

Melvin has asked for comment, and implies that he is welcoming comment, so there should be no surprise that people have commented. This is a very clear invitation.

[Suzie]

Now, to try and add something. DCC concepts are trying to market their PSU offerings by casting doubt in people's minds that what they currently have is inadequate.

 

I think it is only Lenz that currently market a transformer with a DCC system, and therefore only Lenz that would benefit from a PSU upgrade (note special wiring of the PSU required with Lenz - don't just wire DC to the U and V terminals!). All the rest will come with a perfectly good regulated switchmode PSU, the only upgrade needed might be to get a bigger PSU to get full benefit from the capability of the built in booster.

 

I would never use a transformer nowadays for several reasons (weight, poor regulation, inefficiency and cost), but I would have no problem using the switchmode PSU supplied with most DCC systems.

 

15 hours ago, melvin said:

Surely all manufacturers of Digital Control would supply a transformer that is Smooth. ?

 

Transformers are transformers, they don't really come in smooth and not smooth varieties.

 

There is such a thing as an unsmoothed DC power supply, but you are unlikely to have seen one of these in the last twenty years! I don't think any have ever been supplied with DCC systems.

 

In reality there is very little to worry about.

[leopardml2341]

14 hours ago, SamThomas said:

..............What is needed is a power supply (or PSU) - like the black thing you plug into a laptop to charge the battery. These are very "smooth" devices...............

Oh no they ain't have you ever measured one with a 'scope?

 

But in respect of the original question, it could be that the OP has used the term 'transformer' to mean 'controller' - that's how they were referred to when I were a lad, but that's quite a long time ago and may be the same for the OP?

 

In which case a 'controller' might also not be 'smooth' especially if it is a PWM controller

 

As has been said earlier we were all novices once - some of us are still open to learning new things as well.

[SamThomas]

13 minutes ago, leopardml2341 said:

have you ever measured one with a 'scope?

 

Yes, I have.

Maybe I should have said "they are very smooth devices compared to transformers".

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Suzie said:

 

I think it is only Lenz that currently market a transformer with a DCC system, and therefore only Lenz that would benefit from a PSU upgrade (note special wiring of the PSU required with Lenz - don't just wire DC to the U and V terminals!). All the rest will come with a perfectly good regulated switchmode PSU, the only upgrade needed might be to get a bigger PSU to get full benefit from the capability of the built in booster.

 

In reality there is very little to worry about.

The Lenz system will also work with DC input, so you can used a decent DC power supply if you wish.

 

BTW Lenz is one of the systems that doesn't need a power supply upgrade as the software settable track voltage is stable with various input voltages (unlike the DR5000 that has no such feature)

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by melmerby

[Suzie]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

The Lenz system will also work with DC input, so you can used a decent DC power supply if you wish.

 

BTW Lenz is one of the systems that doesn't need a power supply upgrade as the software settable track voltage is stable with various input voltages (unlike the DR5000 that has no such feature)

 

 

Just Remember that you need to connect the negative to the 'T' terminal and the positive to both the 'U' and 'V' terminals otherwise you will overload the bridge rectifier.

[melmerby]

3 minutes ago, Suzie said:

 

Just Remember that you need to connect the negative to the 'T' terminal and the positive to both the 'U' and 'V' terminals otherwise you will overload the bridge rectifier.

 

Just plug it in the power socket on the LZV200.

 

 

[jpendle]

7 hours ago, SamThomas said:

Clearly, you did not read my post correctly - I did NOT say there was anything wrong with the 3a PSU - just commented on jpendles comment that there is no need to change the PSU that comes with the system.

 

FWIW the 3a PSU was not sufficient for my layout but the Z21 was fine with the 5a PSU. The layout has since been divided into 2 x power districts with a Lenz Booster for each.

In the context of the original post.

 

There is no need to change the PSU that comes with the Z21, for the one supplied by DCC Concepts.

 

In addition, using a 5A supply on a 3A rated product is probably not a good idea. The use model for the Z21 is, if you want more than 3A use Boosters. 

 

Regards,

 

John P

[Andymsa]

17 minutes ago, jpendle said:

In the context of the original post.

 

There is no need to change the PSU that comes with the Z21, for the one supplied by DCC Concepts.

 

In addition, using a 5A supply on a 3A rated product is probably not a good idea. The use model for the Z21 is, if you want more than 3A use Boosters. 

 

Regards,

 

John P

 

why is it not a good idea to use  a 5 amp psu for a 3 amp rated device? If the device is 3 amp it will only draw at max 3 amp from the 5 amp psu.

[jpendle]

10 minutes ago, Andymsa said:

 

why is it not a good idea to use  a 5 amp psu for a 3 amp rated device? If the device is 3 amp it will only draw at max 3 amp from the 5 amp psu.

In the context of using a 5A PSU to try to get the Z21 to output more than 3A on the track. (See the earlier post by Sam Thomas)

I agree that as long as the Z21 doesn't consume more than 3A then the 5A PSU is perfectly OK.

But then that begs the question why bother swapping out the supplied 3A PSU with a 5A one?

 

Regards,

 

John P

[SamThomas]

45 minutes ago, jpendle said:

In the context of the original post.

 

There is no need to change the PSU that comes with the Z21, for the one supplied by DCC Concepts.

 

In addition, using a 5A supply on a 3A rated product is probably not a good idea. The use model for the Z21 is, if you want more than 3A use Boosters. 

 

Regards,

 

John P

John - you are still not reading my posts properly.

 

I did not use a PSU from DCC Concepts.

 

Can you perhaps explain why the original 3a PSU was not sufficient for my layout but fine with the 5a one ?

 

Your quote regarding the use of boosters on my layout is irrelevant as I have already stated that I now use 2 x Lenz Boosters.

[kevinlms]

8 hours ago, Suzie said:

Now, to try and add something. DCC concepts are trying to market their PSU offerings by casting doubt in people's minds that what they currently have is inadequate.

 

I think it is only Lenz that currently market a transformer with a DCC system, and therefore only Lenz that would benefit from a PSU upgrade (note special wiring of the PSU required with Lenz - don't just wire DC to the U and V terminals!). All the rest will come with a perfectly good regulated switchmode PSU, the only upgrade needed might be to get a bigger PSU to get full benefit from the capability of the built in booster.

 

I would never use a transformer nowadays for several reasons (weight, poor regulation, inefficiency and cost), but I would have no problem using the switchmode PSU supplied with most DCC systems.

 

 

Transformers are transformers, they don't really come in smooth and not smooth varieties.

 

There is such a thing as an unsmoothed DC power supply, but you are unlikely to have seen one of these in the last twenty years! I don't think any have ever been supplied with DCC systems.

 

In reality there is very little to worry about.

There are plenty of unregulated (unsmoothed) DC power supplies out there. Some devices don't need them and because they are slightly cheaper...

[jpendle]

1 hour ago, SamThomas said:

John - you are still not reading my posts properly.

 

I did not use a PSU from DCC Concepts.

 

Can you perhaps explain why the original 3a PSU was not sufficient for my layout but fine with the 5a one ?

 

Your quote regarding the use of boosters on my layout is irrelevant as I have already stated that I now use 2 x Lenz Boosters.

As a matter of fact YOU are not reading my posts correctly.

 

I didn't say that you are using a PSU from DCC Concepts.

I said that the correct use model for a Z21 is to use Boosters for additional power requirements rather than using a PSU with more current capability.

I didn't say anything about your use of boosters on your layout.

 

Regards,

 

John P