Advice needed on controllers for tail chasers with 2nd/3rd/4th radius curves and 10+ coach trains...

[t.s.meese]

Okay - some brief background to help frame my question... My last layout was a four track tail-chaser in my cellar - think something like Stoke Summit but not as long. 1/3 visible, 1/3 covered (to hide tight curves) 1/3 fiddle yard. I moved house (several years ago) and I'm now getting ready to build a bigger update in my double garage conversion (~1/4 of its width lost to the rebuild, so still tight-ish curves into the fiddle yard and hidden sections). My previous layout used Gaugemaster DF controllers (the maroon/red ones, not the yellow ones) on all four operating lines. These were great - the reason I chose them was because I supposed that long trains (e.g. typically 8-12 coaches; 40+ wagons) would drag around corners, slowing the procession, completely destroying the illusion. I have no interest in hands on control - let them run while I sit back and enjoy (besides I don't have enough hands) - but I feared that without a feedback controller, this would not work. (On the down side, I did notice that most of my Bachmann split chassis locos (I still have them) sounded awful.) Since then, Gaugemaster have stopped producing their feedback controllers (and two of my three need repair on one channel) and coreless motors (increasingly common) hate these things anyway. So here is my question: what is a solo long-train mainline tail-chaser to do? Was feedback never really necessary (i.e. will the yellow Gaugemaster controllers do the job?), or is the concept of hands-off analogue constant speed control a thing of the past? DCC is a possibility for the additional orthogonal small lines I plan (different layers)---but does DCC achieve the constant speed I'm looking for anyway? If DCC is a must for the main line, then so be it, but I'm unlikely to convert my 80+ older pacifics etc. Have they had their day (beautifully/painstakingly weathered - sigh) , or can I hope that modern analogue can deliver constant speed on long trains/tight curves without feedback? (The thought of having more than one type of controller feeding the same line fills me with engineering dread! Even if wired fail-safe, the operational faff of it defeats the enjoyment...)

Thanks in advance.

[SamThomas]

If you are planning to use DCC for the small lines then I would purchase a DCC system, convert a couple of "main line" locomotives & try it out for real.Then, you can compare the performance with the "yellow" GM controllers.

 

Personally, I would use something like Lenz Silver decoders which are quick & easy to set up.

[Michael Hodgson]

9 hours ago, t.s.meese said:

 Gaugemaster have stopped producing their feedback controllers (and two of my three need repair on one channel) 

Perhaps there's a clue there as to why they've stopped producing them?

[Legend]

I run a tail chaser , not as big as yours with 6 coaches max and usually 20-30 wagons . Three lines in radius 2/3/4 . I use a normal Gaugemaster D controller with simulation . Never notice and drag on corners . Works fine for me . Love seeing my 42XX on a long mineral train on outside line or my Bachmann  D 0-8-0 . Both can trundle round slowly without any obvious slowing for curves 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Legend

[t.s.meese]

11 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Perhaps there's a clue there as to why they've stopped producing them?

Haha! Well, one of them is just a problem with some tiny grit behind the forward/backward switch which is jammed. But since they deny user removal of the casing (presumably to protect the guarantee), I can't apply myself to this trivial fix. The other is a sudden death on one channel. But no reason to suppose that is specific to the red build...

[t.s.meese]

12 hours ago, Legend said:

I run a tail chaser , not as big as yours with 6 coaches max and usually 20-30 wagons . Three lines in radius 2/3/4 . I use a normal Gaugemaster D controller with simulation . Never notice and drag on corners . Works fine for me . Love seeing my 42XX on a long mineral train on outside line or my Bachmann  D 0-8-0 . Both can trundle round slowly without any obvious slowing for curves 

Nice to hear - yes, many a glass of fine wine to the slow freight - and with an A4 speeding past on the inside - pure joy... ;- )

I purchased a yellow GM D and a Hornby feedback controller on ebay a few months back to test - but the kitchen floor test branch (+ cat; that's not an acronym, I mean hair-shedding explorative pet cat) was not ideal/conclusive! I got the sense that the Hornby FB controller might be less aggressive to some motors than the GM, but my testing was not comprehensive - my main observation was that my brand new Hornby Princess motor assembly was put together by an inattentive Hornby apprentice (and weathered - I have no air-brush facility at the mo' - by an equally inattentive TMC to the problem they inherited (that's happened twice; though I sought and received good reparation on the second occasion)) - but that's an old thread (perhaps on the Hornby site)...
 

[t.s.meese]

13 hours ago, Legend said:

 I use a normal Gaugemaster D controller with simulation . 

I guess you mean that brake simulation control. I have no experience of that and I'm not sure what it does. Is it for entering stations etc? But how is that different, operationally and visually, to just winding down the main control? Or is this really about acceleration out of a stop? Perhaps you set the brake control to set the rate of acceleration and the speed control to set the upper speed. Is that the concept?

Edited August 23, 2021 by t.s.meese
to make Q clearer

[Legend]

7 hours ago, t.s.meese said:

I guess you mean that brake simulation control. I have no experience of that and I'm not sure what it does. Is it for entering stations etc? But how is that different, operationally and visually, to just winding down the main control? Or is this really about acceleration out of a stop? Perhaps you set the brake control to set the rate of acceleration and the speed control to set the upper speed. Is that the concept?

I mainly use it for smooth acceleration out of the station . You can use it to slow on approach but of course you have to judge it correctly to stop in the station . To be honest it’s a bit of a gimmick and more often than not I have the simulation switched off and just operate it as a direct controller .  Actually my Gaugemaster is 25 years old , but I believe the current version is essentially the same although a different shape . Mine is a box , modern ones are like a console. I also have an old H&M Clipper and an old Hornby R910 (from 1975)  for shunting in the station area and the third loop respectively . I run everything from old Tri-ang through Wrenn, Hornby, Mainline, Airfix, Lima. Right up to the latest Dapol, Hattons etc . No issues .  I am waiting to take delivery of Precedent and Caley 812 that may have coreless motors . I’m a little nervous about that , but after taking out my electronic track cleaners ( which annoyingly I have to do) I’m told they will work ok 

[SamThomas]

11 hours ago, t.s.meese said:

Haha! Well, one of them is just a problem with some tiny grit behind the forward/backward switch which is jammed. But since they deny user removal of the casing (presumably to protect the guarantee), I can't apply myself to this trivial fix. The other is a sudden death on one channel. But no reason to suppose that is specific to the red build...

If you send  them both back to GM they will repair/replace under warranty & post them back to you.

 

You could get two brand new (current issue) controllers for around a fiver (for the post.)

[DCB]

Morley. They work extremely well keeping train running at constant ish speeds with varying gradients and curve drag.  The output voltage and hence speed remains constant while a small drop in speed causes the amps drawn to increase.  Make sure you get the relevant gauge unit, the N gauge units won't cope with OO trans.  Drawback is most come a 4 track units but heir handheld slaves are brilliant so you can space them around the layout.  I much preferred the very similar single units made by OnTrack.

[ejstubbs]

8 hours ago, DCB said:

Drawback is most come a 4 track units

 

The OP has a four-track layout, but nevertheless...what's that on the home page of their web site, then?

 

 

[t.s.meese]

On 27/08/2021 at 09:10, ejstubbs said:

 

The OP has a four-track layout, but nevertheless...what's that on the home page of their web site, then?

 

 

I must take a look at the 4-track versions of these. But wired remotes - a bit twentieth century? (Not that I need them for my plans...)

[DCB]

On 31/08/2021 at 01:51, t.s.meese said:

I must take a look at the 4-track versions of these. But wired remotes - a bit twentieth century? (Not that I need them for my plans...)

The wired remotes are brilliant. They just have three wires and a Potentiometer in there. The 4 pin Din has a spare pin, but they are dead easy to lengthen, even to silly lengths as the current is so low,  I extended one to around 50 feet and the knob lives under a platelayers hut at the outside branch.  They aren't heavy awkward mini controllers with multi core wires carrying an amp, just thin wires carrying milliamps.   You really see spectacular advantages of a Morley when double heading, with dis similar locos, like they work together instead of the feedback controllers trick of one loco slipping furiously before the other actually moves.  That's great for Webb Compounds but not very clever otherwise,  Their main party piece is long trains which don't slow to a stop on 1st or 2nd radius curves.

[ejstubbs]

On 23/08/2021 at 01:09, t.s.meese said:

Gaugemaster have stopped producing their feedback controllers

 

Gaugemaster still list two feedback controllers on their web site: the handheld GMC-HH and the panel mount GMF-UF.  Of the two, I'd imagine that the panel mount one would be more suitable for your requirement to sit back and watch the trains go by.  Gaugemaster do not recommend using these controllers with coreless motors, however, and such motors do seem to be be increasingly commonly used in certain modern RTR locos - worse, it can be difficult to know if a given loco is so fitted prior to purchase (reference this thread).  The Oxford Rail Dean Goods was fitted with a conventional or a coreless motor depending on when it was made, which seems particularly unhelpful.