Katharine St. - A BR(s) suburban terminus in fiNescale

[Lacathedrale]

@Nearholmer I'm permitting myself until tomorrow afternoon to vacillate, and then a concrete decision will be made. Currently I'm leaning towards the prototypical rather than fictional plan.

 

On that note, while sketching the revised plan I was really concerned with percieved wrong-line running into P1, but I had to go and check very carefully to see that Sutton St. Annes, (a huge inspiration for N gauge passenger termini for me) has the same idiosyncrasy and I'm proven to be making a mountain out of a molehill. I think the only other minor tweak is to extend the platform by a few inches to be able to take four Mk1's in the runaround.

 

KS v3.1 rendered in XtrkCAD

 

 

KS v3.1 Mock-up

 

The 'model railway' designer in me thinks the plan it's crying out for a turnout off P2 into a headshunt, like Greenwich Park.  This siding was no doubt used as a loco pocket initially but fell out of use with the introduction of push-pull services (famously allociated to a SECR P-class sandwiched between two converted LCDR bogie coaches to- and from Holborn Viaduct):

 

Greenwich Park circa 1913

 

It would be a lovely spot for a buddleia-covered weltrol as a nod to New Cross and to the engineer's yard on the prototype - but is it a bridge too far? I'm inclined to think so. The track plan becomes a rectangle and is already in danger of looking like a system diagram instead of an actual track formation, so I think the platform runaround headshunts will have to make do for hosting dilapidated stock. I get the impression the staff wouldn't have very much considered the public's perception of seeing a clapped out CCT  as soon as they walk through the waiting room!

Edited August 25, 2021 by Lacathedrale

[5BarVT]

I’ll give you my opinion and hope it helps rather than hinders.

I like the two centre roads version and both with release crossovers will look better, but I would expect only one to be in regular use with the other occupied by vans some of the time.

I too have had Minories like preferences and always wanted to ‘see’ both crossovers.  But . . .

I think you mentioned signalling them, and I feel that if you operate the off scene point and signals that will help the illusion significantly.  Off scene signals are easy to ‘create’ using LEDs on a board.  Off scene points can be simulated, though it would be good to have track that does permit simultaneous arrival and departure from some of the hidden sidings.

Paul.

[Nearholmer]

2 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

I think the platform runaround headshunts will have to make do for hosting dilapidated stock

One southern speciality of the times was to use an old steel-bodied open wagon at the buffer stops as a combined rubbish-dump and bonfire pit, mainly to get rid of the zillions of copies of the evening ‘papers that were swept out of trains at outer termini. Another was to have a tatty old utility van or moth-eaten Maunsell carriage parked there to house some mysterious team of staff and their kit - Work Sudy; Drains Maintenance; St John’s Ambulance (Training); there were oodles of such functions with hidey holes all over the place, some of them I’m sure either entirely made-up, or long since forgotten by HQ.

[Lacathedrale]

Thank you Paul @5BarVT . In an earlier period I'd love to have mechanical interlocking and semaphores, but I think by the 80's that'd be increasingly anachronistic. My understanding is that the two Croydon signalboxes were still operating in the 80's though, so I can at least have one at all! I would imagine there to be two control panels - one for the layout to represent the relevant levers for East Croydon South box, and one for the fiddle yard to represent East Croydon North box.  Working signals and (electronic!) interlocking are a must for this layout, for sure.

 

@Nearholmer - you've sold me, no headshunt is required. Nice opportunity for some weathering on a scorched 16T or a PMV caravan.

 

Freight-wise, I have reviewed @C126's wonderful late-70's NPCS diagrams and have come across more than a dozen daily parcels, news and mail trains that called, originated, from or terminated at East Croydon either side of peak hours served by Class 33's, 73's, and MLV's. The  Rail Express Train Formations Handbook is completely silent with regard to central section formations it has a few for Eastern and Western sections which essentially boil down to SR Bogie B's, GUV's and BG's, with TPO's appearing very late in the era.

 

Passenger-wise

The celebrity SR Green 4SUB '4732' was spotted by Jeremy Carter in 1983 in East Croydon so as far as I'm concerned that's enough to justify it on the layout, and lucky as I have a Worsley etch for it.  Other than that, it seems that 2nd generation EMUs were well established, i.e. 2EPB+4EPB, 4CEPs on terminating outer suburban services, with 4VEPs and 4CIGs stopping by en route to the coast. Thumpers and 33-hauled Mk1's would service travellers from across the Thames, or from the non-electrified lines south such as Uckfield and East Grinstead.

 

 

Edited August 25, 2021 by Lacathedrale

[Nearholmer]

19 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

My understanding is that the two Croydon signalboxes were still operating in the 80's though, so I can at least have one at all! I

West Croydon was all semaphore until Victoria Area re-signalling, the boundary to what I think was SR- period colour light elsewhere was at the junctions near Selhurst. 
 

The rubbish wagons always seemed to be those ex-LNER design steel merchandise wagons - a 16T one would be a pain to get in and out of because of the way the side continues above the door. I think these are the ones https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenmerchandisesteel?fpciidx=53

Edited August 25, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

2 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

Other than that, it seems that 2nd generation EMUs were well established, i.e. 2EPB+4EPB, 4CEPs on terminating outer suburban services,

I’m 99% sure that the stock that was berthed at Coulsdon North and worked the inner suburban stoppers was 4-SUB for as long as they lasted, and that CEPs were main-line only. EPB were used on the Caterham and Tattenham Corner service from CX. VEPs were used on main-line stoppers, rather than inner suburban trains in the 1970s. And, weren’t HAPs used on mainline stoppers that divided at Redhill for Reigate?

 

A good thread about SUBs here 

 

It was all daily stuff, so I didn’t take many photos, but I will delve into my slides when I get time. I do know that I snapped the Royal Train on more than one Derby Day, and a special carrying Brighton and Hove Albion team to Norwich to play against The Canaries, probably c1981, only three cars, one a Pullman IIRC.

 

 

Edited August 25, 2021 by Nearholmer

[C126]

Just a quick addendum to @Lacathedrale 's plea for loco-hauled head-codes (if I understand correctly).  Sorry it is a quick 'shot'; I am off work till Tuesday so no access to a decent scanner.  Anyway, from here:

 

 

... the relevant section is:

 

 

Do say if you want the other pages copied ("Headcodes--main line--loaded passenger trains").  Hope this is of use.  I can do a few more recent time tables as well if required.

[Lacathedrale]

@Nearholmer - who would have thought my interest in your old-fashioned 0 gauge layout would be overlapped with such intimate knowledge of the very area my prototypical BR(s) terminus would be set in!

 

Rubbish Bin at the Buffer Stops

Stephen Harris provides an etched kit for an LNER all-steel open, so that's fortuitous.

 

Which Multiple Units

I understand that the 4SUBs were pretty much all gone by the early 80's except that 4732 which was retained as a pet unit which puts them in the lower boundary of my time period, supported by the thread (which I will read now).

 

Passenger Workings

Really, I've yet to determine how Katharine St. would factor in to regular workings. There was a proposition associated with the 1871 closure to add another chord to the junction with the BML to create a wye, so my current thoughts are that it might support a paradigm like Bodmin or Cannon St., i.e. non-terminating trains might call in and reverse out.

 

I have a Croydon Chronicle clipping from 4th January 1868 (the station opened on New Years Day that year) which points to a service we might consider to be quite bare - but maybe represents the twilight of the 1980's BR(S) era well?

• One train an hour each direction to- and from London Bridge
• Four trains a day in late morning to the evening to- and from Kensington.
• On Sundays the Kensington trains didn't run, but South Croydon was closed and Victoria trains instead terminated at Central Croydon.

It is very telling that by 1890 there was a poem published in the Croydon Advertiser of 23rd August 1890:
 

Quote

 

Remember, Remember the First of September

Though it can scarcely matter a lot;

There is great exhultation, the mid-Croydon station

Will very soon be forgot.

 

The Brighton Railway Company have given formal notice of the closing of the Central Station on and after next Monday week, so that if any railway passengers would like to visit the station out of curiousity they should hurry up. Very few passengers have seen the inside of the station up to the present time, but before it goes forever I would advise those who have any curiousity in the matter to make a brief pilgramage to the station in Katharine Street.

 

 

 

NPCS Workings

@C126 ,  from your wonderful the diagram I have surfaced the following trains at the prototype East Croydon:

• 4Y13 EDL Bricklayers Arms to Redhill Parcels, Headcode C7, arrives 00:49 departs 01:29
• 1B04 Class 33 Victoria at Haywards Heath News, Headcode 12, non-stop passing approx 03:40
• 4026 EDL Willesden to East Croydon), Headcode GB, Parcels, arrives at 03:48 and terminates
• 1A00 EDL Victoria to Eastbourne News, Headcode 72, non-stop passing approx 03:50
• 1B00 Class 33 Victoria to Redhill Mail, Headcode 12 arrives 05:05 and departs 05:20
• 4Y12 EDL Bricklayers Arms to Haywards Heath Parcels, Headcode C7, arrives 05:15 departs 05:26
• 4Y16 EDL Bricklayers Arms to Brighton Parcels, Headcode C7, arrives 13:52, departs 14:26
• 4F15 EDL East Croydon to Bricklayers Arms Parcels, Headcode C7, originates at ECR and departs 14:43
• 4F15 EDL Chichester to East Croydon Parcels, Headcode G9, arrives 18:34 and terminates
• 4B11 EDL Brighton Top Yard to London Victoria Parcels, Headcode 12, seemingly non-stop at 21:07
• 1B32 MLV Victoria to Redhill Mail, Headcode 12, arrives 21:32 and departs 21:42
• 4G13 EDL Bricklayers Arms to Haywards Heath, Headcode C7, Parcels arrives 22:51, departs 22:56
• 4Y11 EDL Bricklayers Arms to Brighton, Headcode 25, Parcels, arrives 22:58 departs 23:08

From this, about half are allocated >15 minutes stop over, which indicates to me they're shunting rather than passing through or waiting for a route. Given that KS is a terminus and has no through roads, I think that they could be candidates for Katherine St. services.  Based on your most recent WTT scan I see the following headcodes:

• C7 (Redhill)
• GB (Willesden to Brighton via Kensington, Clapham Jct, Redhill)
• G9 (Redhill and Worthing)
• 12 Victoria to Brighton via Redhill (added after following post in edit)
• 72 Victoria to Ore via Redhill and Eastbourne (added after following post in edit)
• 25 London Bridge to Portsmouth Harbour via Redhill and Horsham (added after following post in edit)

 

I see that 25, 12, and 72 were on the facing page - I would be curious to know what they are for completeness, but I am already so grateful for your work so far if you don't have time or would prefer not to dig through I totally understand!  I'm surprised there's nothing in your diagram for AG (Kensington O. to Brighton) ?

 

 

Edited August 26, 2021 by Lacathedrale
Added missing headcodes for completeness

[C126]

Delighted to be of assistance.  Herewith the missing pages:

 

 

 

 

And I thought you might like as well from:

 

 

the following lists:

 

 

 

 

 

 

As to there being "nothing in your diagram for AG (Kensington O. to Brighton)", I can only assume there were no trains diagrammed thus for the duration of this time table.  I could have missed it, of course - the diagram has one omission in the Corrigenda - but perhaps others more knowledgable can enlighten us.

 

Incidentally, I would suggest the c.15 mins. wait at East Croydon was for un-loading, not necessarily shunting.  This was the time given to un-load the Newspaper trains on weekday mornings at Lewes, if I remember correctly.

[Nearholmer]

11 minutes ago, C126 said:

Incidentally, I would suggest the c.15 mins. wait at East Croydon was for un-loading, not necessarily shunting.  This was the time given to un-load the Newspaper trains on weekday mornings at Lewes, if I remember correctly.

 

Yes. Doors opened; frenzied activity by dozens of railway staff (railway parcels) and posties (mail); apparent utter chaos, mail bags, stacks of parcels, trolleys etc all over the show; guard looking intently at watch and giving 'hurry up' signals to supervisors; doors closed; hand-signals from platform staff; blowing of whistle and display of lamp; answering blast on horn; deep sighing and groaning of brakes; train glides out of platform; tide of mayhem recedes via lifts and platform slopes; calm.

[C126]

I would add that if you intend running model parcels/mail trains on your layout, the film Night Mail  is a must for illustrating the exquisite precision planning and platform choreography as described by @Nearholmer above.

[Lacathedrale]

Mail, Parcels and Newspaper Trains

Well, that's another thing to add to the reading list!  RE: shunting vs unloading, though the distinction is important - for my purposes I'm simply looking to contrast trains-which-stop-and-something-happens vs. trains-which-pass-through.

 

Headcodes amended as per 1983 WTT

 

Multiple Unit trains

39 Holborn Viaduct to West Croydon via Selhurst - candidate for re-routing

34 Victoria to Brighton all station stopper via Quarry

44 London Bridge to Brighton all station stopper via Quarry

71 London Victoria to East Croydon

76 London Bridge to East Croydon

66/77 East Grinstead to London Victoria/Bridge

88/99 Uckfield to London Victoria/Bridge

92/94/67/69 London Victoria/Bridge to West Croydon via Selhurst/Crystal Palace - candidate for re-routing

 

Specifically Loco-hauled passenger or van trains

A1 Clapham Jct. to Brighton via Redhill Mail train hauled by Crompton (replaces the middle leg of Victoria to Brighton, originally 12 in 1974-5 WTT)

7E London Bridge to Eastbourne News train hauled by EDL or MLV (Replaces the direct Victoria to Eastbourne News, routed via Clapham Jct to LBG. Originally 72 in 1974-75 WTT)

C7 London to Redhill Parcels hauled by EDL

G9 London Bridge to Worthing via Redhill Parcels hauled by EDL

G7 London Bridge to East Croydon Parcels hauled by EDL

E7 London Bridge to Eastbourne via Redhill Parcels hauled by EDL

 

Inter-regional trains

GB Midland-region (i.e. Willesden or Kensington) to Brighton via Clapham Jct, Selhurst, Redhill

 

ECS movements:

06 for ECS to Lovers Walk

00 for ECS to New Cross Gate

05 for ECS to Selhurst via Norwood Jct

 

Light Engine movements:

7G for light engine between London Bridge to Coulsdon North

7C for light engine between London Bridge and Brighton via Redhill

 

I think this should cover basically every train that would be seen at Katharine St!

 

Purchases

In more practical terms, I've bought my track components from FineTrax, and a wide variety of NPCS- SR Bogie B's, CCT's, GUV's, BG's - and the two Mk1's used on a 1983 Kenny Belle behind 73142, a BCK and TSO.

I'm going to keep my eye out for a BR Blue 4CEP - it's technically not 100% appropriate for the layout but it will get me going while I build up kit-built 3H, 4SUB, MLV, etc.

[eastwestdivide]

Your Croydon parcels trains wouldn't necessarily have to be very long - a couple of SR van 'B's behind a 73 formed a regular one from Rochester mid-1980s, which then ran round at Strood, as in this photo from 1985, when it was conveying a BSK as well (possibly returning from the very early morning down newspaper train):

 

Another of mine from 1984, waited till dusk for the sparks over the bit of conductor rail that didn't get much use in that direction:

Edited August 26, 2021 by eastwestdivide
extra photo

[Lacathedrale]

I have posted a thread in the signalling subforum to attempt to make sense of a diagram I found! @Nearholmer I don't know when Victoria was resignalled - but I can see this link shows a semaphore at West Croydon in 1983 so I'm going to feel free to include them! 

 

A link to that thread, incase you're interested!

 

[Lacathedrale]

@eastwestdivide I picked up just two SR Bogie B's - I get the feeling that GUV's, B's and BG's will be the lions share of parcels traffic but wanted to get a base level of variety. After what's happened with the Farish 4CEP's I'm experiencing a real FOMO on relevant stock. I'll also look into picking up a BSK too.

 

Based on the train diagrams above I can imagine a few short trains arriving and departing while a longer one gets built up for the run to Victoria or Eastbourne.

[woodenhead]

If you are going with Bogie Bs you might also want so ex SR CCT, BR CCT vans and ex LMS 50ft parcels vans.

 

For real variety but I don't know if they lasted that long ex LNER Thompson or GWR Colletts

 

[Lacathedrale]

I have got one each of SR and BR CCT’s but I understand that the former were almost entirely gone by my period? I’m sure I read somewhere that Norwood/Selhurst had a pet PMV hanging around until the mid 80’s…

I think I’ve got enough stock to get myself going for now - hopefully a 73 and 33 on the way too - I need to sort baseboards, the fiddle yard and to build some track!

 

Edited August 26, 2021 by Lacathedrale

[5BarVT]

1 hour ago, Lacathedrale said:

I don't know when Victoria was resignalled

Started in the early 80s: Victoria Train Describer was on factory test at Boreham Wood in late ‘79.  For Katharine St, the relevant resignalling is Three Bridges as East Croydon southwards is on Three Bridges not Victoria.  I’m pretty sure that came after Victoria but by how much I’m not sure.

Paul.

[eastwestdivide]

CCT info in this thread:

From memory, 4-wheel parcels stock disappeared from Kent parcels workings maybe 1982-3, possibly a couple of years before that. I noted GW and LMS-pattern bogie vans in Rochester very late 70s, but I think the SR CCT/PMV and BR CCT  outlasted them. The SR ’B’ bogie vans outlasted the 4-wheelers by some way.
I think I did a roundup of how many of various types were left by year of coaching stock books somewhere on here. 
EDIT: here we go

 

Edited August 26, 2021 by eastwestdivide
More info

[Nearholmer]

I have started ferreting through slides, and the only directly relevant thing I've found so far is a Down parcels and mail, headed by an ED, headcode C7, date 1980. Only the first three vans are clearly visible: 2xBR CCT; Mk1 BG. I think the fourth might be a BR GUV.

 

The date you select is going to make a huge difference and, as you might expect, I'm keen to push you earlier, to when van variety was greater, there were more 4-SUBs, and the 2-PANs were in-being.

 

Another random thought: de-icers and stores units. What an interesting collection of old crocks, even the ones that were being converted from SUBs in the late 1970s. The stores units in service c1980 were 1930s vehicles, proper domed cab roofs, but I'm not sure which class they were converted from, 2-HAL possibly. Very rarely photographed, but I do have a slide of one somewhere.

 

PS: Found a photo showing a rubbish wagon on the stops at Stewart's Lane. The traffic-facing end is painted yellow, body and headstock. The shot is end-on, so I can't tell whether the rest is the same, but I doubt it.

 

 

[HonestTom]

There's an interesting might-have-been that you could maybe use to justify a decent passenger service. In 1947, during the planning stages of what would become the Victoria Line, London Transport proposed something called "Scheme D." This was an Underground line that would basically have followed the course of the present-day Victoria line with two additions - a branch in the north to Waltham Cross and in the south, it would go beyond Brixton, through Streatham and Norbury and down to South Croydon. Early versions had it going further, to Coulsdon North and Sanderstead, but by 1951 that had been scrapped. Budgetary constraints and changing priorities resulted in this version of the line getting canned.

 

However, one consistent point was a station that would have been called "Croydon Central" (1947 version) or "Town Hall" (1951 version). This would have been located immediately to the south of the site of Central Croydon station. Perhaps you could imagine that this version of the Victoria Line actually did get built, justifying a far more intensive service than would have existed in reality.

[Lacathedrale]

The core period for the layout will be focused in the years around 1985. This permits the Kenny Belle, Class 37's in southern region, the green 4SUB, and NetworkSouthEast branding appearing as well as all the classic slam-door stock I can remember i.e. EPB, CEP, VEP, CIG, etc. I am happy to fuzz the edges - I would run a 2PAN or a Networker, but not at the same time!

 

Very happy for the sidings at Katharine St. to end up as a convenient place to park engineer's trains, stores, de-icers, etc. But I'm definitely going to need to build some more conventional stock for the core period first.

 

@HonestTom I think the more we dig the more potential justification there is for any amount of whatever service I care to run!

 

The signalling thread has made me realise that by stretching the layout by two feet, I can model the actual throat - two boards of 4' instead of two of 3' isn't a huge imposition, so will provision for its inclusion even if i don't model it up front.

 

 

[5BarVT]

1 hour ago, Lacathedrale said:

The signalling thread has made me realise that by stretching the layout by two feet, I can model the actual throat - two boards of 4' instead of two of 3' isn't a huge imposition, so will provision for its inclusion even if i don't model it up front.

On the signalling thread there was an historic diagram with a diamond crossing in the run round roads.  That permits running round of a train that fills the platform as the coaches can be pushed back out to the approach crossovers.  An option is to use that to give room for the extra points by shortening the platforms to your 4 coach (+ locos) length.

Paul.

[Lacathedrale]

You're quite right Paul, looking at the diagrams it seems the 1868-71 plan and the 1886-90 plan differed a fair bit. The signal box, shunt signals, etc. were all implemented as part of the '86 refurbishment of the site.

 

I have diagrammed them both here for easy comparison, using the slightly stretched footprint of Katharine St I've settled on at the bottom for comparison with the modern (ha!) plan at the top:

 

 

The main difference is that the runaround sidings would connect to the OPPOSITE platform road. This has a number of knock-on effects -  namely that it allows a larger runaround if one is prepared to block the throat, and increases usable platform length by approximately 30'. 

 

There are a few major knocks against this however: 

1. Due to the FineTrax components available it  unfortunately would also preclude a three-way for the dedicated GPO siding and there's just not enough space for it anywhere else
2. For the same reason (lack of a double scissors) the throat has to be re-jigged and the crossovers become opposite-handed, limiting the gravel headshunt to use P1 only
3. The main reason for this extension, i.e. the increase in capacity is somewhat lost on me, as the P1 runaround already has capacity for four Mk1's which I imagine to be my longest loco-hauled train, and the platforms do not gain enough length for an 8-car EMU.

Ultimately I think I'm going to stick with the '68-71 plan, though I guess alot can happen between now and when sod is cut!

 

I have taken delivery of my first batch of stock for this layout, to be photographed tomorrow!

[Lacathedrale]

If you will excuse the gratuitous use of 1990's track planning tools, I've filled in the details for the plan a little more concretely:

 

 

I've increased the angle of the track through the layout, and pushed the station back a couple of inches to give some distance between the platform and the front of the visible area.

 

In my timeline, Park Lane is still just a normal road, and the Croydon Flyover doesn't exist - as such, no embankment or earthworks are required and the gentle slope from the corner of Katharine St. and Park Lane continues  down the highstreet to the Sugarloaf pub some distance away to the south. The foreground of this layout is therefore on such a slope, and Queens' Gardens (once planned to occupy the whole site - perish the thought!) is squeezed in between the station and Mint Walk, closer towards the viewer.

 

The station throat's nature as a cutting is emphasised by bringing the lines of the board inward to follow the railway  - steep embankments on both sides rise up. If neccesary, Fair field path could be dropped across the tracks to bracket the end of the layout.