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Katharine St. - A BR(s) suburban terminus in fiNescale


Lacathedrale
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A couple of tweaks that might give you full 8-car trains in the platforms:

 

A - LH point hard up against the toe of the trailing crossover on the down line

 

B - extend the GPO siding; could you incorporate the three way into the trailing crossover on the up line?

 

Studio_20210831_134603.png.9dc77a14aed1721b0621cb1f205b2ddc.png

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Posted (edited)

I've sketched out the cutting list for the baseboards - both baseboards can be built from a single sheet of 6mm ply with a fair amount for wastage:

 

image.png.b44a0c0de483a861673d97798b9ccf87.png

 

The sawtooth pattern shows the cross and diagonal brace locations, to be measured out above. A, B, and C ends are doubled up to provide some meat for coupling up the boards. This will provide a fully flat baseboard, akin to a fiddle yard. The rear of the layout (i.e. Katherine St itself) has a rise of 15' between the station building and the throat, and this will be effected by risers, rather than cutting the stretchers awkwardly.

 

In this state the layout has no integral proscenium arch, lighting rig or backscene. My gut feeling is that for an amateur like me it's going to be more effort than it's worth to try to integrate it so I'm leaning towards the use of pockets on the back of the baseboard to take a backscene and lighting rig on aluminum square tube.

 

@Flying Pig - though it seems quite straight forward I've tried to rearrange the throat and there's nowhere to go - the threeway can't go back towards the bridge any further than it currently is, and the platform turnout can't be flipped to the other direction and still maintain the geometry into the P1 runaround. Thanks!

 

A 1950's BritainFromAbove crop shows the engineer's yard and the workshop buildings which flanked the track:

image.png.0d2ee4eb7c32941c7a34d2cf00c63bb5.png

 

 

The tree-lined embankment shows the border of Fair field, and the diagonal stub on the top-right shows where the footbridge I proposition as a view break would have crossed the cutting. Also of general interest - the OHLE gantries for the Brighton overhead electric trains are still in situ. The concrete plinths on which they stood are still extant in the retaining walls.

Edited by Lacathedrale
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Deliberate inclusion of first class to Olympia? I think all inner suburban trains were 2nd only, although a BCK might be used anyway, as the only thing available, and it is certainly a useful thing for newspaper trains, which is what I think they descended to when they were no longer needed on the SW.

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Commenting on a photo of 73002 at Victoria on a newspaper train has reinforced @eastwestdivide's point earlier about BSK's for meagre passenger accomodation on news trains, and then subsequently finding their way onto mail and parcels trains on return workings. This is very handy, as 7E is just such a news train that will call into Central Croydon:

 

73002 830216 Victoria 0300 LV-Ramsgate

 

I don't imagine there will be many passengers alighting at Central Croydon from an 0300 out of Victoria! I can't find a return flow from Eastbourne to London direct, but there are plenty of candidates that would tack the BSK on to get it back to Vicoria.

 

Frustratingly, there appear to only be Scotrail branded BSK's available currently, and for a high price - £46! - so I'll sit on my hands on this one for a little longer and hope that standard liveried ones become available. Or, can I just wipe out the ScotRail sector logo and that's it?

Edited by Lacathedrale
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1 hour ago, Lacathedrale said:

I can't find a return flow from Eastbourne to London direct, but there are plenty of candidates that would tack the BSK on to get it back to Vicoria.

 

OD will know for sure, but I think it went back via Hastings (where it nominally turned into a different train), then Ashford, Tonbridge, Redhill, to NXG. [Caption under this very good photo says it went to LOB, not NXG.]

 

33 201 at Hastings

 

 

But, I saw both Up and Down news/parcels/mail hauled by ED, at Tunbridge Wells Central on occassions, possibly diversions - they must have been a slow drag in both directions, because that route is very hilly and wasnt electrified until much later!

 

A lot of these things are very date dependant, like the categorical statement under that photo that SE newspaper trains only ever had BSK. Probably true after a given date, but BCK were certainly known in the early/mid 70s.

Edited by Nearholmer
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@TJ52 - lovely shot. I think we have a candidate for my EDL loco!

 

Here is 73142 pulling what I assume is the Redhill-Brighton leg of a London parcels train in the 70's:

 

c.1970 - Redhill, Surrey.

 

And funnily enough, I spotted this exact loco renumbered as 73201 when I used to live on the Caterham Branch, on RHTT duties, still sporting the BR blue livery with dual shields some 35 years later! For reference,pictured here in the condition I remember at Strood:

 

73201 : Cuxton

 

 

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18 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Deliberate inclusion of first class to Olympia? I think all inner suburban trains were 2nd only, although a BCK might be used anyway, as the only thing available, and it is certainly a useful thing for newspaper trains, which is what I think they descended to when they were no longer needed on the SW.


The steam loco hauled Kenny Belle sets, DEMUs, DMUs and TC sets latterly used on the Kenny Belle all had first class accomodation, so maybe the Kenny Belle was the exception that proves the rule?

 

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I would like to get a broad handle on the EMU requirements for Katharine St - based on the list I posted earlier for potential services, I think I've got it all mapped out except the slower London-Brighton services which may have called in at Katharine St. en-route (I am happy to imagine a wye at the junction to the main line rather than a facing connection to the slow lines which would permit slow and all-station-stop services to call in en route to a final destination:

 

London to Katharine St (redirected from terminating trains at East/West Croydon) 4EPB, 2EPB, 4SUB

39 Holborn Viaduct to West Croydon via Selhurst

92/94/67/69 London Victoria/Bridge to West Croydon via Selhurst/Crystal Palace

71 London Victoria to East Croydon

76 London Bridge to East Croydon

 

London to Brighton (all station stopper via Katharine St) - 4CIG???

34 Victoria to Brighton all station stopper via Quarry -

44 London Bridge to Brighton all station stopper via Quarry

 

London to East Sussex (via Katharine St) - Thumper DMU

66/77 East Grinstead to London Victoria/Bridge

88/99 Uckfield to London Victoria/Bridge

 

Cross-regional trains - Loco + 4TC or Mk1 rake, or Thumper DMU

GB Willesden to Central Croydon

GB (?) Kensington to Central Croydon

 

What fits comfortably into the '4CIG???' section? I'm going to assume that it's one of the 4CEP or BEP or VEP, or CIG or BIG. I'm assuming the 4EPBs would have displaced the 4SUBs over time but the rest is a mystery. When I was a kid I took slam door NSE trains from Lewisham to London Bridge before the Networkers displaced them, and got on at least one Connex South Central slam-door train at Waterloo East which I believe was fast to somewhere like Hastings!

Edited by Lacathedrale
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Maybe, but I strongly suspect it was composed of whatever would otherwise have idle-time in the diagram, which mostly happened to be things with a bit of first class.

 

If anyone has an old public timetable, it might say if it was (nominally) second only, but I have a hunch that it wasn’t always/ever in the public timetable anyway, so it might need resort to the seven inch thick fares manual.

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???? = VEP most likely, I should think.

 

CEP and CIG might appear, but they were primarily for faster and further. No BEP or BIG on a slow, you had to bring your own food and drink.

 

I am worried about the chaos that will be caused by crossing the Oxted line trains across the paths of everything else to get between your station and the junction at South Croydon - controllers will get ulcers even quicker than normal.

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Am I right in thinking that all London to Brighton stoppers would not use the Quarry line. They would miss out several stops south from East Croydon probably Coulsdon South, Merstham and Redhill also to serve south of Earlswood would need a crossover from the fast to the slow lines.

 

Keith

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All this is very date-dependant, because up to c1983, the lines on the west of the formation at EC were the slows, being used by trains (4-SUB) to Coulsdon North. I think (but am not solid certain) that the Brighton Slows, ran non-stop EC to Coulsdon South, using the fast lines as far as Stots Nest Junction, then continued straight on through Redhill (some dividing for Reigate), and onwards through Earlswood, using the slow lines, these being on the western side of the formation.

 

The Tattenham Corner and Caterham service used the then fast lines, as did the Oxted trains as far as SC, with the Fast Relief line (which I seem to recall was reversible) just about making that possible.

 

After c1983, Coulsdon North was out of the equation, and the fasts and slows EC to Stoats Nest were swapped over.

 

My memory on some of the service patterns and track use post-1983 is pretty foggy - I’d ceased to take much notice by then, just wanted to get where I was going!

 

But, what this does highlight is that St Katherine Street, as a ‘slow’ terminus is an even worse operational nuisance after 1983. than before. It works for the 1970s, far less so thereafter, IMO.

 

 

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@Nearholmer tbh if all i'm going to 'gain' is a 4VEP (which I never actually rode upon and have no real connection to anyway), then maybe I should focus on the outer suburban services to/from London - Addiscombe was served by 2EPB and 4EPB shuttles (albeit on the Eastern Section, but proximal!) and 4SUBs to Coulsdon North and West Croydon. For the sake of having a ready-made unit I'll happily buy a Farish 4CEP if one turns up on eBay, though!

 

Additionally I think CEPs, EPBs and SUBs may well give me a good amount of visual distinction between EMU's and as such could potentially stomach losing the Thumpers to reduce any possible signalman and path planning ulceration.

 

@Dr Gerbil-Fritters I saw the layout at the same show I saw 'Sutton St. Anne' which is IMO a far superior layout. Southwark Bridge has the theme, but I don't think it was executed as well as the other.

Edited by Lacathedrale
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I figured it was probably time to figure out the fiddle yard/traverser - and I have come to a shocking revelation - it turns out my house does obey the laws of euclidean geometry and so far I'm unable to unfold 4D space.  It looks like this layout will need to have a "core", rather than being built to full length immediately.

 

Length

The uninterrupted space I have available for a permanent layout is approximately 8'4". By reverting to the original modelled extents and removing the forecourt, we end up with what I'm notionally calling the core. This core does not in any way compromise the prototypical fidelity (aside from my GPO platform!) as the station board is still fully to scale. We end up with a 38" station board, a 31" half-throat board, and a 31" fiddle yard.

 

Angle

An unfortunate byproduct of fitting into a human-compatible space is the need to ensure there is a reasonable amount of room for the traverser to traverse, so I must also straighten out the design. This also has the knock-on effect of slimming the layout down by a few inches.

 

Katharine St. v3.2 - Core

image.png.9cf5aa9e0203085d1ac93544786c9614.png

 

Non-core omission: forecourt

There is easy provision for a slot-in forecourt 'module' that could restore the forecourt and frontage of the station - made with suitably light materials (foamcore?) it could even be magnetised.

 

Non-core omission: throat and ballast pit siding

Note that the track plan continues on the main module beyond Park Lane - this is required for the core module to function, but also forms the basis for an additional approach board to be inserted at a future date to model the full throat including the gravel pit/engineer's yard. Given insertion of any board in this location precludes a permanent setup at home, there's no reason for the approach board to be the measly 2' originally specificed, and could even be a curved baseboard as per the original alignment relative to Central Croydon.

Edited by Lacathedrale
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I saw that too but didn't look - I was too scared he'd found something I missed but thankfully the sources that are there, are all there are. 05:35 shows the kink in Katharine Street itself - note the red brick versus the blue engineering brick in earlier shots of the retaining wall - where I'll be placing the GPO platform.

 

I have paid a visit to my local wood merchant and should be returning with a good deal of material to start building the baseboards. I have decided in my infinite wisdom to make the scenic section a single board. I have access to a van in the vanishingly small proposition that I exhibit the layout, and if not it will save significantly on construction and permit a nice, unobstructed facade when plonked on the cupboards in my office.

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Great having a local wood merchant. They even cut it for you.

 

In my opinion the best thing about this thread has been the research. Probably even more fun than making the actual layout.

 

But then I am a historian, after a fashion. Really enjoying it,

 

Terry

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Indeed, I managed to snag the last sheet of 6mm ply they have, and though it is marine rather than birch ply it should do me well. This morning:

 

image.png.837003d526a9ea63e3162276f11dfeda.png

 

 

This afternoon:

 

image.png.02b94ff5ffeedf1e6cf040393d7e8c83.png

 

In addition to the 175cm x 33cm main board and the 70cm x 25cm traverser board (not pictured), I have managed to squeeze three sides of a backscene too. There are diagonal stretchers, which I also forgot to lay out for the picture.

 

While planning I realised that road level is about an inch higher than the baseboard surface, and so if i were to jigsaw out the whole road and incline behind the station and sit it on risers, it would significantly compromise the rigidity. Instead, I will build risers onto the baseboard surface and lay another strip of thin ply above that.

 

While I was out in the garden, I also recieved delivery of my track from Wayne at Finetrax:

 

image.png.3e8c8fe47f0c2fd8e4df0d94e1d3573c.png

 

The extra B6 and crossover for the throat will be stashed away for future use.

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One thing that's interesting to me is that there are references to Park Lane Tunnel (as opposed to bridge) being filled in when the station was abandoned in 1890.  One would have thought a steel girder bridge would have been a much simpler approach than a tunnel, but nevertheless.

 

My gut feeling is that this appeared to the layman as a tunnel because it was a continuation of the retaining wall, with a brick arch and abutments, see here for example (though irrelevant for this discussion, this bridge is just up the road from me and has extra piers towards the viewpoint which would have carried the aborted LBSCR Ouse Valley branch to Uckfield)  https://www.google.com/maps/@51.0302435,-0.1107915,3a,75y,212.48h,97.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4lia7zePZbVRuPG1z0qiOQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

To keep a sense of decorum, but to satisfy @TJ52's historical research aspect - we note but will ignore for now the fact that the OS Maps show at least the headshunt of the gravel siding poking into the original site.)

 

 

 

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A few hours work have resulted in the scenic board being mostly complete using 6mm ply and 20x30mm PSE in the corners.

 

IMG_6297.jpeg.95e759187440be897790623faad7bd89.jpeg

 

IMG_6298.jpeg.1ddc95df122e525c3372ec7e315fa80c.jpeg

 

I will need to support the rear edge of the baseboard surface with some offcuts, and I will add the diagonal bracing when I'm sure of the track positionining and that I'll be clear of any turnout tie bars. Speaking of which:

 

IMG_6302.jpeg.093bda492c72de4b1004bf19e8438615.jpeg

A view from the treetops along the south side of Fair field, looking over the station toward the High Street.

 

IMG_6303.jpeg.750d5a1cda80c920bd2093f44cb7dce7.jpeg

A view from atop Park Lane tunnel towards the bay platform

 

IMG_6304.jpeg.db663a4a1830eef7b27d7cc3ec03c928.jpeg

A bird's eye view

 

Note that the station building has somehow miraculously ended up away from the left side of the layout - this is just a printing error and in reality as per the plan it will be hard up against the left edge.

 

Also note where the tracks become invisible - this is the boundary of the Park Lane tunnel as mentioned above.

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