Katharine St. - A BR(s) suburban terminus in fiNescale

[Rivercider]

As a very occasional visitor to this thread was the Kensington Olympia 1st class question ever resolved?

 

I have public timetables from 1977/78 1983/84 1985/86 and 1986/87, and the Kenny O service is in all of them, and only 1985/86 is shown 2nd class only.

 

1977/78, Table 144. M-F only. Two services north AM. Two services south PM

 

1983/84, Table 149. M-F only. Eight services north (4 am 4 pm), Seven services south (3 am 4 pm)

 

1985/86, Table 149, M-F only. 2nd class only. Eight north (4 am 4 pm), Seven south (3 am 4 pm)

 

1986/87. Table 149, M-F. 3 north am, 3 north pm, plus 4 north through trains.  3 south am 3 south pm plus 4 through services. Saturday 4 through services each north and south. Sunday 2 through each north and south.

 

cheers

Edited November 15, 2021 by Rivercider
clarification

[Lacathedrale]

Hi NickC, Nick Holliday in the LBSCR group has confirmed BoT regulations at the time state the most distant turnout from a box was 180yds, and the headshunts were 220yds distant from the cabin - so I think it's fair to say you're right on the money. 

 

 

 

I have attempted to colourise this other photograph, famously showing a Webb 2-4-2 pulling an LNWR train out of Central Croydon (i.e. somewhere between 1886-1890).

 

The green line shows the two running lines, and a siding obscured by the train. You can see EC South at the end of the line, and the plain grey horizontal band which is the retaining wall on the main line. The trees at the end of the embankment between the LNWR loco and the retaining wall are visible in the Junction photo. The orange line is the sand pit line.

 

In this photograph we can clearly see four signal posts. There are only three visible in the 1896 town planning map:

 

 

But do you know what else is missing from that 1896 map? The main line signalbox of East Croydon South.

 

If the station was out of use by 1890 and razed according to the 1896 town map, and that same map shows that the signal box visible in both photographs isn't yet built - then the only explanation is that both photographs date from after the station was razed, and the approaches must have been used for empty stock storage.

 

Dating the photographs to post-1897 dovetails them nicely with the 1920's signal box diagrams for the EC South and EC Central boxes:

 

I think this is the blue highlighted signal

 

I think this is the purple highlighted signal/s.

 

The offset signal in the colourised photograph to the left of the blue, is visible in the 'Junction photograph' on the up local, where a Terrier is pulling a load bunker first towards East Croydon.

[Lacathedrale]

Sorry @Rivercider, for the last few days I have been deep in the wasteland of 19th century signalling diagrams and I haven't put a huge amount of thought into the Kenny Belle service. What are the through trains? I wonder if in my hypothesised extension of the service, those would be Willesden trains?

[Nearholmer]

7 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

famously showing a Webb 2-4-2 pulling an LNWR train out of Central Croydon (i.e. somewhere between 1886-1890).

I thought that photo was taken from the top of Croydon Town Hall while it was under construction, so c1895-6, and showed the LNWR train stabled between turns, having terminated at EC.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Lacathedrale]

2 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I thought that photo was taken from the top of Croydon Town Hall while it was under construction, so c1895-6, and showed the LNWR train stabled between turns, having terminated at EC.

 

Well, that is something I did NOT know - but it makes perfect sense. Can you sleuth the junction photograph? Wrong line running but presumably more of the same?

[Nearholmer]

I had not seen the junction photo before, but when I glimpsed it earlier today, I instantly thought “LNWR train running-around/stabled”.

 

What is worrying me now is that I can’t remember how I know that photo was taken from the TH. Is it on ‘Disused Stations’? Or, maybe in a London Railway Record or something?

[Rivercider]

17 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

Sorry @Rivercider, for the last few days I have been deep in the wasteland of 19th century signalling diagrams and I haven't put a huge amount of thought into the Kenny Belle service. What are the through trains? I wonder if in my hypothesised extension of the service, those would be Willesden trains?

No, in 1986/87 they were more exotic than that, table 50 was the South Coast to North Inter City service,

and I now see that there were more of them at K O than I thought. There were 3 other northbound trains from Dover as well, but these were the ones that called at East Croydon and K O

 

06.25 Newhaven Marine to Manchester Piccadilly, 07.43 K O

10.15 Brighton to Liverpool Lime Street, 11.19 K O

12.15 Brighton to Liverpool Lime Street, 13.19 K O

18.26 Brighton to Liverpool Lime Street, 19.54 K O

 

cheers

 

 

 

[Lacathedrale]

Ah yes, the Sunny South Special or some such - 47 hauled?

[Nearholmer]

If you ferret around on the web, you will find a very rare occasion when a Peak was used on a Brighton train IIRC, but 47 was the rostered power.

 

I commuted MK to EC using the early morning Manchester to Brighton service for a few years up to 1987, and they were truly dreadful trains, deeply, deeply unreliable, because the diesel loco so often got lost, stolen, strayed or mislaid on the way to the engine change at Willesden.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Lacathedrale]

I can't imagine we'd see the Gatwick Express stopping at Katharine St - but I didn't realise there was a 'Railair' brand that predated it on that route:

 

https://twitter.com/_doublearrow/status/1462568384357449732/photo/1

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Yes, I don't recall the dates of "Railair", but there was a bit of history of focusing on the services to Gatwick. When the SR 1930s stock was still around, certain stock that had exceptionally large luggage areas were allocated to them, the "tin HALs" IIRC, although it was a while back and memory is volatile!

[C126]

On 15/11/2021 at 23:35, Lacathedrale said:

Ah yes, the Sunny South Special or some such - 47 hauled?

 

Just to alert anyone to Andy Gibbs's wonderful web-site devoted to these services www.1s76.com  W.T.T.s, photos, and all one could want to know about them.

Edited November 25, 2021 by C126
Elegance.

[KeithHC]

Nearholmer I think you are correct with the tin Hal’s and there was also the converted 4 veps classed as 4 veg.

 

Keith

[Lacathedrale]

Motive power finally arrives for Katharine Street courtesy of @justin1985 - I'm not wholly convinced by Dapol's BR Blue, so a repaint is forthcoming:

 

 

Additionally, the latest Brighton Circle has a photograph of East/New Croydon showing the only picture I know of which depicts the PW yard in Fair field:

 

The AC overhead gantries date this view to post-1923 and pre-1935ish (the gantries remained after cessation of OHLE in 1929 for a short period). We can still see a train of covered wagons in the approach of Central Croydon. The long building with roof vents behind the tracks is visible in the ground-level photograph up the page of this thread is visible, as is the tall signal gantry over the bridge on the main lines.

 

 

[Lacathedrale]

Katharine Street is still alive.  I got the baseboard out of the shed and stuck it on my shelving unit to see how it looks there:

 

C7 Central Croydon to Bricklayers Arms Parcels departs platform 2 while 78 Croydon to Victoria (slow) waits for a road out on Platform 1. There must be a motive power issue, not only is it the wrong locomotive (pathed for a Class 73), but it's also about five years in the future! 

 

The bin wagon sits at the buffers of the P1 runaround, with an old CCT lurking nearby, no doubt set out by the Willesden to Croydon parcels, several hours earlier:

 

 

Here's what the layout looks in its entireity. The large white box represents the SEGAS building, the motley collection on the left the station building. The 2" x 2" square softwood is the position of the Park Lane tunnel.

 

The benefit of increasing the station length for coach capacity is going to be completely useless, but does allow the trains to 'fit' nicely in the station. The drawback of increasing the station length is that the baseboard is a single 6' unit, and as such is not going to fit into my car. I have access to a camper van for local exhibitions should this ever be something I pursue, but if I am ever going to slice the layout down - now is the time.

 

I'm not sure at all how I feel about the fiddle yard - it will cantilever off the end of the layout with a telescoping leg. I had initially planned for a sector plate, but I have realised that I can fit about four feet of length before I start encroaching on 'family space', and even just a quick sketch shows that a standard FY with turnouts (Peco Medium + Double Slip) will work just fine:

I'm not so worried about the specifics - this one for example has three bidirectional and three unidirectional sidings - but rather that it works. Stock could be stored on the layout and run into the FY before an operating session.

 

I could concievably shuffle the board left to butt up against the adjacent wall, gaining me another 18" or so which would be enough to model the approach signals, the other half of the station crossover and maybe the rear end of the civil engineers depot in Fair Field. That's probably a smart idea from a layout perspective but I think I'll just keep that, and the fiddle-yard, in the pocket for the moment.

 

[Lacathedrale]

In theory the above plan could be legitimately flipped vertically and could represent the other end of the throat crossover. While it's generally frowned upon to have your trains exiting on 'run way running' but this is prototypically accurate for the section of track I'm modelling, and would result all the fiddle yard roads being bidirectional.

 

[Lacathedrale]

After a hearty discussion with @justin1985 on the layout yesterday, I think I have decided to fully omit the bay platform idea. The use of the runaround loops and buffer-side pockets will already create significant 'wrinkles' in operational complexity without the need for another siding to be shoehorned in there. Visually, five tracks and three platform faces starts to detract heavily from the airy nature of the layout.

 

However, we are also at a point where the consideration of the ACTUAL track plan needs to take place. For the sake of completeness I have sketched the three arrangements. The grey line represents Back Lane AKA Park Lane. The signal box was originally platform-side

 

1866 (before opening):

This is detailed in the 1866 OS Map, but is dated two years before the station opened. The fact there are no runarounds or loco pockets and nothing on the approach tracks suggests this was never likely to be operated in this fashion and was an intermediate point before works were completed.

 

1868 (at opening):

A bad photocopy that has been annotated as 1868 shows the runarounds in place, but the original throat. In this version a single ended siding (most likely for carriage stock) is laid in Fair Field.

 

1886 (planned):

The BoT plans for the reopening dated 1886 suggest this was the planned layout for the reopening of the station. The Fair Field sidings are rearranged with a kick-back to a gravel pit connected to the throat, and the replacement of the crossovers with a double scissors. A new signal box was built between the siding and running lines.

 

1891 (assumed):

 

There are no OS maps of the station as it was during its second period of operation, but study of the OS maps shows no evidence of the double scissors, and the rightmost crossover depicted above is still in situ. The reopening plan of 1886 includes some features which seem like they were not implemented such as ground signals, so I theorise that the double scissors was also a victim of this.

 

Model form:

In model form, there is no need or room to depict the gravel siding or the rightmost crossover. I don't have much appetite to model (or buy the peco version) of the double scissors, so the 1891 assumed plan is what I'm going to model:

 

 

The width of Katharine Street is actually fairly to scale, but I may foreshorten it to bring the track more central to the layout. The blue hashed area indicates the extent of the sawtooth canopies, the bottom/front will probably be omitted for the sake of being able to see anything! The brown lines across the platforms indicate where the original platforms were extended - either a change in brick colour (as per prototype) or SR-era concrete platforms)

 

 

[Lacathedrale]

I must admit, looking at the still as-yet untouched Finetracks points kits I'm getting nervous about getting that done. I think I need a track-building day!

[AndyB]

29 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

I must admit, looking at the still as-yet untouched Finetracks points kits I'm getting nervous about getting that done. I think I need a track-building day!

 

I'll be interested to hear about your experiences of these kits. Definitely something I'd like to have a go at myself. 

[Lacathedrale]

I understand the revamped range is quite different, I picked up a bunch before the switch-over to fully printed bases, so mine require the fixing and gluing of individual chairs. Either way, I'll be sure to show it here.

 

My past-self pre-ordered some BGs/etc. from Rails and they've just dispatched so should have even more stock arriving soon.

[Lacathedrale]

Right, I've made a bit of a balls-up. When the plan was somewhat in flux, with the potential addition of the bay platform - I sent two orders through for kits to Wayne at British Finescale; and like an absolute lemon I ordered the inverse of what was required; two r/h B8's instead of two left-handed ones. I've also got a threeway and a pair of B6's that I don't need. I'm hoping he takes pity on me and allows me to exchange what are now legacy kits for the correct turnouts...

 

EDIT: He's said he'll be happy to send me the replacement legacy LH B8 bases, so we're back in action!

 

For a bit of relaxation, here's a hazy morning view from what I have just realised would be from the window in the Ladies WC:

 

 

I used the camera zoom to frame the shot so please excuse the foreshortening!

Edited February 17, 2022 by Lacathedrale

[woodenhead]

Oops, if you can't sell them I am sure there must be someone on the market for some of Wayne's older points.

[Lacathedrale]

Wayne was an absolute superstar and sent me the base for the correct handed turnouts AND a matching diamond crossing. What a top geezer.

 

I'll be honest - not a great deal has happened with this layout since those posed shots. I've always been slightly far sighted but now it's at a point where I need glasses to read close up and it's gotten significantly worse in the last couple of years. I've always required a magnifier while working in 2mmFS but now it's mandatory for even the most basic tasks. On one hand I've got all the stock I'll need and the track kits, but honestly I'm just nervous about investing alot of time into N/2mm

 

 

[Pacific231G]

On 15/11/2021 at 14:08, Lacathedrale said:

 

 

NickC, your explanation does make sense - the release crossovers would have been the most distant points from the signal box by a long shot. I assume that in that case, releasing the bolts from the signalbox would be feasible over the distance, whereas throwing the turnouts wouldn't? Another fun snag in the operational complexity of the layout

 

T

 

Picking this up months later Nick. Yes, releasing crossovers worked from a local ground frame unlocked by the signalbox seem to have been very common, perhaps even the norm, for any terminus much larger than a branch line. The ground frame was often at the buffer end of the six foot between the two tracks involved and unlocked by a lever in the signalbox.

 

The terminus I've looked at most attentively is Fort William (old) and, for the releasing crossover between the two "bay" platforms, the GF there had five levers, two for the actual points, two controlling slots in the home signals accessing the two platforms so that the station master or deputy could ensure that the platforms were clear before a train was allowed to enter, and an "asking lever" to ask the signalman to unlock the frame. I don't think these were there because of the distance of the points from the box. With station canopies etc. the person in charge of the platforms would have been far better placed to carry out the loco release itself. 

Looking at my OPC books of selected GWR stations for termini with SB diagrams. I found this arrangement with either a mechanical or an electrical release at Penzance, Porthcawl. Newquay. Millbay, Kingswear and that's just from a quick scan. At Moor Street the electrically powered traversing tables were also locally worked so would have been unlocked by the box.   

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by Pacific231G
clarity

[Lacathedrale]

The latest Brighton Circle has a small piece on the signalling of Central Croydon, I understand its genesis was in the discussion I started about it, noted on page 2 of this thread, within the lbscr groups.io group and I'm pleased to see that brains more clever than I have been hard at work ferreting out the particulars. There is a general consensus that the 1868-71 plan rightly shows no signalbox, the junction box at the mainline controlling signals to- and from the station and a ground-frame (rightly not drawn on the OS-map) was responsible for the rest of the working. It is apparent that the first ground-frame was of a particularly antiquated type even at the point of installation, so probably recycled from elsewhere.

 

More interesting is that the Saxby 1b signalbox (of which we have a picture somewhere slightly earlier - Plumpton, for extant example) which appeared on Fair Field was a 40 lever box with 16 levers free - clearly overprovisioned and again almost certainly recycled from elsewhere, potentially one of the various Old Kent Road boxes?

 

As it pertains to physical modelling, nothing much of anything has happened with KS I'm afraid - I needed to clean up my office so the baseboard has ended up in my (wife's) shed and the stock is back in boxes. I'm keeping a weather eye open for relevant N gauge stock for the layout and trying hard to sit on my hands for the PGA wagons that are forthcoming. I really need JHA's if I'm going to do the aggregate plant.

 

One larger development is that with the imminent sale of my car, the garage will be free and a much more suitable place for a layout, so I am considering my options there. Either a) to re-site and potentially re-scope KS to include Fair Field (and the sidings, signalbox and signals which are so important to the plan) as originally desired, or b) to see what can be made manifest in P4 in that space.

 

For the sake of illustration, a re-scoped KS might look like this:

Katharine Street v3

 

The original two boards are stretched to 900mm x 400mm each, to allow me to depict the station forecourt (which consists of 2/3 of the only available photographs of the station, so prudent to include!) and to allow the scale width of Katharine Street and a small portion of 'behind the bushes' of Queen's Gardens park to be represented.  The secret weapon of this plan, however, is shown below:

 

Katharine Street v3 with Fair Field extension

 

A 1200mm x 400m board could plug in between the two to depict Fair Field, it's very notional at this point in track design. The sandpit of the 1900's prototype is translated to a modern aggregate depot. My supposition is that London Concrete/Day Aggregates sited here instead of at Purley. The loading shed could connect through to the fiddle yard? It could also represent the 1930's-era permanent way depot with sundry track panels and items strewn around. Most importantly for me, it can depict the Saxby 2B signalbox and the relevant starter signals for the station and junction.

 

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by Lacathedrale