More Signals at Hessle Haven & Scarborough

[mikemeg]

Well the topic on building signals for Hessle Haven seemed to attract some readers and contributors, so let's start a new thread covering more signals at Hessle Haven and some of the signals which stood at Scarborough around 1950.

 

I shall try and avoid repeating what has been described on the first thread, but I thought on this thread it might be useful to describe just how a few old photographs plus some known data leads to making a detailed drawing and then through to making the models. So let's start with another of those ex-NER McKenzie & Holland lattice signal bridges; this one with slotted posts and lower quadrants.

 

I know everybody works differently but, for me, to make any model I need a detailed drawing, ideally annotated with salient dimensions, so that I don't have to rely solely on the drawing's accuracy. In the absence of that, then I will always attempt to make a detailed drawing, to 4 mm scale. All of what follows assumes, of course, that I can't find a drawing of the prototype to be modelled, he proclaims, boldly.

 

I should add that this is not science, it is educated guesswork, using dimensions that are known and thus deducing those that are not known. I should also add that I use the PC to size these photos, magnifying them on the screen until the resolution becomes just good enough to interpret them. This is an absolute boon in trying to size or estimate dimensions, especially with photographs held on file at 300 or even 600 dpi. The larger the image, the smaller the error - establishing a measurement of 10 mm (9.0 mm to 11.0 mm; possible error 10%) is much less accurate than establishing a measurment of 50 mm (49.0 mm to 51.0 mm; possible error 2.0%).

 

So I have but two precious photographs of this thing, taken many years apart and both provided by Mick Nicholson.

 

Photograph 1 shows the thing in its LNER days (including a lovely old Sentinel railmotor) with slotted posts and lower quadrants. This photo was taken well away from the trackside, so there is both parallax and some foreclosing of the constituent parts of the structure.

 

Photograph 2 shows the thing in its later days around 1964, with a V2 blasting out of Hull on a fitted freight, possibly a fish train. This photo was taken much closer to the trackside and is therefore of much greater use in sizing the lattice.

 

So with these two photographs to hand, what do we know?

 

1) We know that the standard McKenzie & Holland lattice posts had lattice sections 1' 6" high, so we can relatively easily work out the height of the posts and their width, top and bottom by counting and measuring the lattice sections.

 

2) We know that NER signals had the handrail 3' 0" above the level of the decking and this is a really crucial dimensioning datum point. So we can then work out the depth of the lattice girder and the size of the individual lattice segments.

 

3) We know that ladders, fitted to NER signals, had rungs spaced 10" apart. This is a very useful cross check on photograph 2, where the ladder is entirely visible.

 

4) On this stretch of line, we know that the tracks were spaced at 6', 6'and 6' spacings. This section was quadrupled before the Board of Trade recommendation that all quadruple track formations should be spaced at 10', 6', 10' ( this when lines were arranged up, up, down, down) or where running lines were paired up/down, up/down at 6', 10', 6' spacings. So drawing the track formations we can then work out the overall span of this thing, by calculating where the posts stood in relation to the formation.

 

5) We also know that a standard upper quadrant arm is 5' 3" long (including the spectacle plate) by 10" wide. Equally we know that a standard NER signal arm was 5' 6" long by 9" wide though on brackets and gantries the NER used a shortened arm 5' 0" long as well as smaller arms for shunting, calling on and backing movements; the standard here seems to have been 2' 91/2" long (2' 6" to the pivot) by 7" wide.

 

So from those few known dimensions plus a little educated guesswork, we can start to dimension and draw the lattice structure.

 

In this instance I realised when I had done the lattice drawing, that the headroom from rail top to the bottom of the lattice girder was some 3 - 4 mm too low, hence the note.

 

So here's the drawing of the lattice structure completed; now for the dolls and arms.

 

Notice that the end segment of the lattice, at both ends, is slightly wider than the rest; this to accomodate the 3' 0" radius of the bottom horizontal member as it joins the post. This also slightly changes the angle of the diagonals on these two segments, as M&H strove to achieve a 90 degree intersect where crosses were used - nominally 45 degrees on the diagonal struts - (though there were exceptions, especially on the 4' 6" deep girders) on this type of lattice girder.

 

One other thing to say is that I try and estimate the largest dimension first, in this instance the span. If I tried to calculate the width of a single lattice section and then multiplied by the number of sections, then an error of 10% on that first calculation (lattice section width), would result in the same percentage error on the second calculation (the span), which would equal an error of over 20 mm.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[the penguin of doom]

Hi Mike.

 

May I be the first to say I'm looking forward to this new thread and your progress with the signals. Especially the Scarborough ones. I know I'm Hessle based now, but I spent many hours in the 70's and 80's at scarborough so, crack on as they say.

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

[mikemeg]

Thanks to Sean for the words of encouragement. With the various notes on the drawing, where things were wrong, then it has been re-drawn. This is the completed drawing, from which the model will be made. I haven't included full details of the linkage positions; just enough to ensure that the balance levers will not foul the handrails when they are operated. This signal used pulley wheels throughout, as opposed to angle cranks, so a separate, and much simpler drawing will be made just to establish the location of the various pulleys and wire runs.

 

The drawing seems to check out against the photos - number of handrail stanchions (a very useful check), relative positions of the dolls and arms, spacing of the lampmans landings, etc., so I'm happy that the model will accurately portray the prototype, at least as near as I can get to it.

 

So now I can proceed with making this model and also start to draw up the much larger Scarborough signal bridge.

 

As an aside, one thing about the railways prior to the widespread adoption of colour light signalling, was the extraordinary height of some of these structures - they could be visible for miles. And these were nowhere near the height of some of the LNWR, GNR or NBR structures.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[micknich2003]

Dear Mike, to explain why a bridge was used instead of a right-hand bracket, can you do a "Cut and Paste" job and "Ghost In" the long removed Up Distant signals? Best Wishes, Mick.

[mikemeg]

Dear Mike, to explain why a bridge was used instead of a right-hand bracket, can you do a "Cut and Paste" job and "Ghost In" the long removed Up Distant signals? Best Wishes, Mick.

 

Mick,

 

I have no details of the long removed Up Distants. Were these distants for the homes on the right hand bracket which I have just made; the one which stood directly opposite Hessle Haven signal box? When this bridge had up distants on it, that bracket also had distants and splitting distants on it so this length of line, about four hundred yards up to the signal bridge by shipyard bridge, must have been signalled pretty well!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[mikemeg]

Here's another one of those asides. Someone e-mailed me asking how long I had been doing 'scale' drawings? The answer is a long time, nearly fifty years. The earliest one I still have was done in pencil in 1962; I was around fourteen when I did this one.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[Gallows Close]

I'm looking forward to this new thread and your progress with the signals. Especially the Scarborough ones.

 

Hear Hear!!

 

I have spent plenty of time at the platform end by Falsgrave box in my time. I'm looking forward to seeing these magnificent bridges recreated.

 

158812 arriving from Liverpool Lime Street on 3rd February 2005 (Photo - Chris Shutt)

 

Cheers,

Chris.

[mikemeg]

Hear Hear!!

 

I have spent plenty of time at the platform end by Falsgrave box in my time. I'm looking forward to seeing these magnificent bridges recreated.

 

158812 arriving from Liverpool Lime Street on 3rd February 2005 (Photo - Chris Shutt)

 

Cheers,

Chris.

 

And I will build this one (and what a cracking photo that is for sizing and drawing). If that girder is 2' 6" deep, then this bridge must have spanned around sixty feet.

 

But the first one will be the thing which stood by the roundhouse in the MPD. That was an absolute monster but here's a picture of another huge signal bridge, this one stood by Washbeck Signal box, just up the line from Falsgrave.

 

This had a 3' 0" deep girder so must have had a span close to eighty feet - I'll have a better idea when I do the sizing and drawing. Notice how the leftmost doll had a full size slot for the distant and the home arms. This was a legacy of a time when the arm could disappear into the slot in the event of a wire failure. And just look at those 'flying' landings across the six middle dolls, thirty five feet up!

 

I guess by now I don't need to say who supplied this photo.

 

And yes, these things really were magnificent.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[Horsetan]

Going up there must have been for people who didn't suffer from vertigo....

 

.....these were nowhere near the height of some of the LNWR, GNR or NBR structures.

 

I think Grantham GN had a very very very tall bracket structure.

[mikemeg]

 

I think Grantham GN had a very very very tall bracket structure.

 

Was that the one known locally as Black Bess?

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[mikemeg]

And over on t'other thread, I'm just doing the 'final fixing' on the three models covered on there - last of the ladders, a bit of final painting and weathering and then I'll photograph them on the railway and, hopefully, re-create something of those halcyon days of our childhood and youth, when steam reigned supreme and the railway was a truly wondrous place.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[Horsetan]

Was that the one known locally as Black Bess?

 

I wouldn't know of the nickname, but it was the structure on or at the end of the "up" platform that countless Pacifics have been photographed passing under when hauling services such as the "Flying Scotsman"

[mikemeg]

I wouldn't know of the nickname, but it was the structure on or at the end of the "up" platform that countless Pacifics have been photographed passing under when hauling services such as the "Flying Scotsman"

 

Aye that's the one. I think I have a photo of this somewhere; I do have a picture, and here it is. That thing must have been over fifty feet high.

 

I can't make out what is heading the train in the photograph but it does look like an A4 (sloping running plate). So yet another picture of a Pacific under this thing and why not; they didn't come much more impressive than this?

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[the penguin of doom]

And over on t'other thread, I'm just doing the 'final fixing' on the three models covered on there - last of the ladders, a bit of final painting and weathering and then I'll photograph them on the railway and, hopefully, re-create something of those halcyon days of our childhood and youth, when steam reigned supreme and the railway was a truly wondrous place.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

Erm.....

 

I still have a couple of Green Peaks waiting to pass through on an excursion.....

 

Might sound like a pedantic question Mike, but I don't recall reading an explanation..... Where do the Scarborough signal bridges fit into your current Hessle project? I'm thinking you might be doing them "Just for fun?"

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

[mikemeg]

Erm.....

 

I still have a couple of Green Peaks waiting to pass through on an excursion.....

 

Might sound like a pedantic question Mike, but I don't recall reading an explanation..... Where do the Scarborough signal bridges fit into your current Hessle project? I'm thinking you might be doing them "Just for fun?"

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

 

Sean,

 

No a very fair question. Hessle Haven is my own layout and will, hopefully, remain so; therefore I have to build models of the prototype signals circa mid 1950. The Scarborough models are for a model of Scarborough now being planned, though I would have built that monster by the roundhouse, and will - which will be the first to be built - just for fun or perhaps to keep Horsetan quiet - just joking Horsetan, though you won't be satisfied (or probably quiet) until I've built that thing at Rugby.

 

All of this is to be background to those B1's and, initially a couple of D20's. So I'll be updating a different section of this topic area for a week or three!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[mikemeg]

Chris,

 

Here's another couple of photos of the signal bridge still standing and working at Falsgrave, Scarborough. I took these during January on one of those crystal clear but very cold days with snow on the ground. The light on that day just had to be seen to be believed. As this thing is due for replacement, later this year, then these few photos which I took of it will certainly remind me of one of the last remaining of these magnificent things.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[mikemeg]

And here's another picture of Scarborough; this one is for my other great passion (apart from the current lady partner); my painting. I tried to take a photo which was a railway poster or which would become a railway poster. This was taken on a glorious early spring day in April.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[Jon Fitness]

Chris,

 

Here's another couple of photos of the signal bridge still standing and working at Falsgrave, Scarborough. I took these during January on one of those crystal clear but very cold days with snow on the ground. The light on that day just had to be seen to be believed. As this thing is due for replacement, later this year, then these few photos which I took of it will certainly remind me of one of the last remaining of these magnificent things.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

Mike,

An elegant magnificent structure indeed! I took some pictures of the LNW one at Rhyl just before it was removed and will upload them once I have scanned them.

A detail point on the signals themselves; I notice the spec plates on some of the signals are of differing designs. Is this a size thing or a BR variation?

Cheers

JF.

[LNERGE]

I stayed in a rather big hotel on the sea front in Scarborough during the relaying at Rillington some years ago. I remember waking after a night shift and looking out the window to see snow falling and little black things bobbing around in the sea. These turned out to be people surfing. My other memory of Scarborough was visiting Falsgrave box and seeing that gantry, the derailer in one of the platforms and the relay cabinet in the box still wired in yellow flameproof single core. Fantasatic. Shame it seems to be on the way out.

[Gallows Close]

Chris,

 

Here's another couple of photos of the signal bridge still standing and working at Falsgrave, Scarborough.

 

Thanks Mike, what super photos. And, if I may say one of only a handful of the bridge I've seen without a train in sight. You have taken a photograph of only the bridge, whereas most of us would see the subject as a loco beneath.

 

Great shot of the South Bay too. We were over in February, and staying at the Crown Spa overlooking that sweeping bay - albeit with much colder weather!

 

Cheers,

Chris

[Gallows Close]

I notice the spec plates on some of the signals are of differing designs. Is this a size thing or a BR variation?

Cheers

JF.

Hello John,

 

If I recall the spectacle plate on the calling on arm is missing altogether! Is that still the case Mike? It's been like that for years, and I supoose if it is not fixed now it never will be.

 

Cheers,

Chris.

[mikemeg]

Thanks Mike, what super photos. And, if I may say one of only a handful of the bridge I've seen without a train in sight. You have taken a photograph of only the bridge, whereas most of us would see the subject as a loco beneath.

 

Great shot of the South Bay too. We were over in February, and staying at the Crown Spa overlooking that sweeping bay - albeit with much colder weather!

 

Cheers,

Chris

 

Chris,

 

Many thanks for the kind comments. I set out to photo just the signal bridge and against that brilliant, clear, cerulean blue sky. So rare to see such a sky and such light, especially in winter. In truth, had there been a train, then I would have waited while it had passed.

 

I'm afraid there are not very many trains that I would photograph, these days, though seeing an A4 go under this thing, as I did, and not having my camera with me, as I didn't was something of a 'miss', though indelibly imprinted on the memory.

 

Anyway with these photos plus your own photos of this same structure then I can make the drawing with reasonable accuracy.

 

Here's another photo taken on another day but, again, no train to be seen. Ah, if I could but walk down the line and photograph all of the other signal bridges in this place!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[micknich2003]

One could be forgiven for thinking the signal bridge at Scarbrough had always been there, well from c1909 when the station was re-signalled etc. Not so. see the two attached pictures which both show the original bridge. The present version arrived as late as c1933 when the station layout was again altered,it was not new in the accepted sense but assembled from "Recovered" material. Elsewhere on the former NE similar work using recovered material was carried out as late as c1950. Best Wishes, Mick.

[mikemeg]

Mick,

 

Great pictures! That one of the Tenant is as sharp and clear as it could be; the one of the Atlantic must be pretty rare, especially to see one of these things in its NER livery.

 

Interesting that on the picture of the Tenant, there is another large bridge in the background, which I assume is the one which stood at Washbeck, though whether that was the final version or an earlier version, I can't tell.

 

Also interesting, on this same picture, are the boards between the tracks, where until 1913, trains would stop and allow ticket collectors to move between coaches; this before the days of corridor coaches. This was necessary because Scarborough did not become a closed station (with ticket barriers) until that date - 1913.

 

A lot of signalling changes were made when Londesbrough Road Station was opened, around 1908, though how far those changes reached I don't know. Certainly the Washbeck signal bridge must have undergone significant changes with this opening.

 

Equally, the Falsgrave signal bridge was modified to cater for the opening of the new Platform 1A at Scarborough Central in 1933. This platform, extending to and beyond Falsgrave Signal Box, necessitated a new signal bridge. This platform did, and still does, have the longest station seat in the world, at 152 feet.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[Gallows Close]

Chris,

 

Anyway with these photos plus your own photos of this same structure then I can make the drawing with reasonable accuracy.

 

I do have more. Forgive me if this is overload, but here goes.....

 

 

47847 shunting the stock from a Scarborough to London KX train 12th July 2007

 

45407 arriving with a charter during March 2005

 

6233 with the Coronation Pullman 21st May 2005

 

A class 222 leaves for London St. Pancras 11th July 2005

 

City of Truro 7th June 2004

(All photographs Chris Shutt)

 

Hope you do not mind me posting these Mike - but it is sometimes an interesting spot to watch trains. Platform 1A can also be clearly seen on most of the shots running in front of the 'box.

 

Cheers,

Chris.