Pre grouping liveries surviving into grouping - passenger stock

[sharris]

There are quite a few photos around of pre-grouping wagons keeping their livery into the grouping era, some exceptional examples even keeping a pre-grouping livery into the late 1930s.

 

But how rapidly did coaching stock get a make-over after grouping? Were the big four keen to impress their new corporate identities on passengers so that coaches got a much prompter trip to the paint shop than goods vehicles?

 

[Andy Hayter]

Locomotives got re-branded but not necessarily re-liveried very quickly after grouping.  In other words the previous owning company logos and name were replaced by the grouping equivalent.  

 

Judging by the lack of pictures of coaches carrying the old company names in my area of interest I would think that coaches similarly got new branding quite quickly.  In quite a number of cases this would make the coach look very similar to the grouping versions.  So for example a Midland coach rebranded to LMS could look indistinguishable to an LMS coach:  GNR, GCR and GER all used varnished teak so re-branding would just leave the lining as the wrong colour; most of the GWR saw no changes at all.  

[t-b-g]

A few years ago, on another thread, the predecessor to this one to give it proper credit (what a super collection)

 

 a photo was posted which was of an ex LMS Patriot in early BR days hauling a rake of carriages. I was (and still am) convinced that the leading carriage is in LNWR livery.

 

It was a unique carriage, an ex WW1 Ambulance Carriage conversion to an Invalid Carriage and although the carriage appears on the surviving records, which show a date for repainting into LMS livery, no date was recorded against the vehicle, which would suggest that it may never have been repainted. The photo was taken at the time the carriage was withdrawn (1951 from memory), so it may have been captured on a one off journey to the scrap man.

 

The resident experts all shot me down in flames of course but that is nothing new! If it was in BR Carmine/Cream, the panel lines wouldn't be picked out and for the date, it would have to be fresh out of paintshops. Yet even though it is dirty it is clearly two colours, so I don't know what it could be other than LNWR style.

 

I post the photo again here. I am sure that it is OK as it is already available elsewhere on RMWeb. 

Edit to add link to original thread which contains the photo

 

 

Edited August 24, 2021 by t-b-g
To add content

[Compound2632]

I agree - LNWR livery does seem to be the only rational explanation of that one. As an invalid carriage, it probably didn't see much use - it had probably spent the war years lurking in the back of a carriage shed somewhere. The Directors' saloon was painted in a precursor of blood & custard - standard pre-1934 LMS livery but with cream upper panels - but as far as I'm aware there's no evidence for any other carriages being given the same treatment. 

 

Another late LNWR livery survivor - but not as late as that one - I know of only by repute, not having a copy of The Big Four in Colour by Jenkinson et al. In the background of a colour photo of the Coronation Scot train attacking Camden Bank is a passenger brake van still in plum and spilt milk.

 

Of course LNWR livery remained in use for the Royal Train up to 1940 too!

Edited August 26, 2021 by Compound2632

[sharris]

I can’t find a Coronation Scot in my copy with an LNWR livery brake, but there is a Black 5 and a Jubilee with BR experimental plum and spilt milk carriages in shot.

 

In terms of (pre-BR) precursors to BR blood and custard, LMS 80000-80002 is similar although the upper panels appear lighter, and I think the UK built Type 22 Micheline appeared in red and cream although haven’t seen a colour photo of that one to check.