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Railway Modelling - A Hobby turned Luxury?


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Mmm, I'd venture to suggest model railways have always been a luxury.


From: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/166210-Bachmann-announce-new-class-47/&do=findComment&comment=4553467

 

 

Interesting thought here.

With the advent of technology, especially with the plug in and play of DCC, has the modelling aspect of model railways gone?

 

Yes, there's still trees to plant or stations to build but there's a lot more choice of ready made buildings now.  Space in homes is also a consideration and with model railways becoming an ever decreasing hobby, has is now just become a collectible market instead of a "build and create" market?

 

Or are there different levels of the hobby (like any other?).  You get those who ride push bikes around their county yet others who rarely ride but restore bikes from by gone years.  Are both hobbyists?

 

Is model railways a hobby or a luxury?
The obvious answer is a bit of both, and while it doesn't have to be, for many it is an expensive one (although is there a cheap one these days?).

 

For the purposes of the thread, modelling would be customising or creating something physical in some way... examples include creating a tree from scratch or weathering a loco, but may also include creating a scene with a pre-modelled tree.
Essentially, plonking down a pre-fab building and a few platforms isn't really modelling per se but adding details or enhancing that prefab in some way could be classed as modelling.

Difficult to quantify.

Edited by Sir TophamHatt
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I think the hobby has evolved over the years, and one of the changes is that, on average, we now spend a much greater percentage of our modelling time on scenery and context than probably was the case a generation or so ago. And that, in part, reflects the way that products have changed, too. For example, locos and rolling stock are, on the whole, getting better and better, so there's less need to kit-build or scratchbuild (or renumber/repaint, as discussed elsehwere on RMweb). But, on the other hand, the raw materials for creating scenery have also improved, but in a way that demands more, not less, of our time. Static grass takes more time and care to put down than the old-style scatter powders and flock, but the results are worth it. Tree kits take longer to build than sticking lichen on some twigs, but, again, it's worth the effort. "Ready to pour" water products create a much more realistic impression than a sheet of glass or perspex (or painted plaster), but take more time to get right, too.  We put more time into getting our finescale track to look right, with the ballast and weathering, than maybe we used to when we all used code 100 (or even code 120). And so on.

 

So the change, I think, has been away from model railways as engineering and towards model railways as art. And I can understand why, for some people, that's a negative shift, particularly when it means the erosion of traditional skills with a soldering iron, a paintbrush and a screwdriver. But, on the other hand, it's opened up opportunities for those with different skills. And the best layouts, the ones that win prizes at shows, still are, and always will be, those that combine both aspcts convincingly.

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Mr Topham

 

The only way to define ‘modelling’ is to define ‘not modelling’, and in so doing to label ‘modellers’ and ‘not modellers’, and in so doing to create two castes: The Smug; and, The Aggrieved.

 

I would strongly suggest that it would greatly subtract from the sum of human happiness to do that.

 

Kevin

 

 

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African or European Hobby?  :prankster:

 

 

As for "modellers and non modellers" it's irrelevant. If I was a modeller using top of the range kits then the hobby can be vastly more expensive than using RTR mass produced models.

 

How much for a Brassmasters Princess Royal for example with a decent motor/gearbox and full set of Ultrascale wheels? Far more than any 4mm RTR model locomotive currently available.

 

£275 loco and tender

£105 wheels

£100 motor/gearbox 

Extras probably about another £50.

 

Then you need to build and paint it.

 

Or I can scour the second hand market and find an old Hornby one for about £20 to £50 depending on condition.

 

You can probably find the current Hornby model for about £120 brand new if you search. Amazon had them about that price recently.

 

The hobby can be as expensive or as cheap as you want it to be. That's always been the case. 

 

 

Jason

Edited by Steamport Southport
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2 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

The hobby can be as expensive or as cheap as you want it to be. That's always been the case. 

 

Absolutely spot-on, with emphasis on "always".

 

If you read the first year or two of the first ever model railway magazine, MR&L, from 1909 onwards, you will find huge layouts, built using only one tool: a chequebook (sometimes in 5" gauge, no less), alongside layouts scratchbuilt by fine craftsmen from raw materials, alongside cheap tin toys that have been turned into passable scale models using basic tools and scraps of recycled materials on a kitchen table.

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I’m not sure the classification between ‘modellers’ and ‘non-modellers’ is quite right. A more appropriate distinction to make would be between modellers and modelmakers. Modelling as a description of the hobby covers the making, collecting, and playing with models, whereas modelmaking is really just one part of the wider hobby.

 

Any hobby has to be a broad church, and if anything the trend of the last 15 years has been for many to take part in the hobby by just reading about it online. I suspect far more time is spent this way than actually building or operating a model railway…

 

Do remember though that a hobby is simply a structured activity undertaken for pleasure, and so if reading about model railways, buying/collecting stock, or devoting decades to hand building a masterpiece replica of a particular flange profile in XYZ scale gives you enjoyment, then I say celebrate it, keep at it, and never mind what anyone else thinks of it.

 

David

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7 minutes ago, bmthtrains - David said:

I’m not sure the classification between ‘modellers’ and ‘non-modellers’ is quite right. A more appropriate distinction to make would be between modellers and modelmakers. Modelling as a description of the hobby covers the making, collecting, and playing with models, whereas modelmaking is really just one part of the wider hobby.

 

Any hobby has to be a broad church, and if anything the trend of the last 15 years has been for many to take part in the hobby by just reading about it online. I suspect far more time is spent this way than actually building or operating a model railway…

 

Do remember though that a hobby is simply a structured activity undertaken for pleasure, and so if reading about model railways, buying/collecting stock, or devoting decades to hand building a masterpiece replica of a particular flange profile in XYZ scale gives you enjoyment, then I say celebrate it, keep at it, and never mind what anyone else thinks of it.

 

David

I would put myself in the 'modelmaker' category as I enjoy modifying/repainting/building kits etc etc, but wont ever look down on someone who just likes to collect models, or indeed read about them.

 

However what I have noticed over the past few years is a rapid rise of the 'I want it now, for nothing, exactly as it was on xxxxx and if not then the company should fail for ruining my life' brigade.  Those people grate on me.  Ok, being a bit dramatic there but you get my drift.

 

I also get annoyed by people who continually make a fuss about a model not being as they want it, but do not want to learn the skills on how to achieve that.

 

Another group who annoy me are those who continually moan about the cost of this hobby, it is only as expensive as you want it to be.  If you cant afford or don't want to spend on the latest super-detailed sound fitted £200 loco then buy a cheap 2nd hand one and learn how to turn it into the expensive one. 

 

Have a look at any other electrically powered scale miniature hobby and you'll see that model railways are nowhere near as expensive in comparison.

 

The final (I think!) group of people who annoy me are those who say the hobby is dying.   I've been hearing that for the past 40 years.  I remember going to a railway club for the first time aged 10, 40 years ago, to be told 'this hobby is dead, it wont be around next year' from one of the club members. 

 

If the hobby is dying, why is there constant innovation, constant improvement of models and materials, a multitude of new manufacturers.  Of course when you ask those who preach doom and gloom, they never answer...

 

Is this hobby a luxury, of course it is, any hobby is a luxury, from reading to private plane ownership.  Having free time and money, is a luxury that not everyone has, sadly.

 

 

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If a luxury is something desirable but hard to attain or something not essential then yes, any hobby is a luxury. 

 

How much of a luxury a hobby is, is measurable against a persons work or aspect of life they have little choice but to engage in to live. The measure is not just financial but also spiritual. Speaking personally, work has become something that encroaches deeper into ones life without the commensurate reward as the years go on. A hobby which can relieve you momentarily from the strains of life is a luxury but is in my opinion a necessity at the same time. Is this a bread and roses thing?

 

The hobby as a financial luxury? well I find the "the hobby is as expensive as you want it" argument a little frustrating.  I want my hobby to be extremely expensive but circumstances dictate it must not and cannot be so. This hobby can be as expensive as your bank balance or credit score allows is nearer the reality.  

 

 

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11 hours ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

with model railways becoming an ever decreasing hobby,

The decline and demise of railway modelling has been predicted since before I was born (1960s)

 

If that was true, the Warley Show would be in a hut at the back of the Harry Mitchell Centre in Smethwick, rather than at the NEC since 1993-ish?

As far as I can see, things have never been so good for modellers with the amount of stuff available these days. It has always been a luxury though; all my early stuff was bought second-hand, because my parents & I couldn't afford new prices. The first brand new loco I had was the Mainline 03, for the sum of £12:95!! That was a luxury!!!

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The luxury is more in terms of time than anything else.

 

Having time to pursue a hobby is the biggest hurdle, and if you can get over that then almost any hobby can be pursued for as much or as little financial outlay as you like.

 

Most of us don't have the time or inclination to learn how to do everything in the vast hobby that is model railways.

 

I'm happy enough running trains to reasonably accurate operating practices on a bare plywood board with cereal packet and sellotape buildings to show me where to stop. If that's not good enough to be a modeller then I'm not a modeller and I don't care. (I'd like to make it look better, but on the rare occasions that I have time to do anything I'd sooner run trains).

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10 hours ago, bmthtrains - David said:

I’m not sure the classification between ‘modellers’ and ‘non-modellers’ is quite right.

 

I'm sure it's quite wrong.

 

11 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The only way to define ‘modelling’ is to define ‘not modelling’

 

This is an example of the "false dilemma fallacy" aka "the fallacy of the excluded middle": https://www.thoughtco.com/false-dilemma-fallacy-250338

 

This is sometimes referred to as the "Fallacy of the Excluded Middle" because it can occur as a misapplication of the Law of the Excluded Middle. This "law of logic" stipulates that with any proposition, it must be either true or false; a "middle" option is "excluded". When there are two propositions, and you can demonstrate that either one or the other must logically be true, then it is possible to argue that the falsehood of one logically entails the truth of the other.

That, however, is a tough standard to meet - it can be very difficult to demonstrate that among a given range of statements (whether two or more), one of them absolutely has to be correct. It certainly isn't something which can simply be taken for granted, but this is precisely what the False Dilemma Fallacy tends to do.

 

Fortunately, it's pretty clear that subsequent contributions to this thread have pretty much demolished this false dichotomy.

 

Note that the "law of logic" known as the Law of the Excluded Middle, in the context of mathematical logic, is problematic in itself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_excluded_middle#Criticisms

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26 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Most of us don't have the time or inclination to learn how to do everything

 

Suddenly made me think of my outdoor hobby: cycling.

 

Only a tiny few hobby cyclists build their own bikes from parts; all make adjustments; a high proportion swap-out components to make their bikes "ideal" for them; the number who scratch-build bikes from raw materials can be counted on the fingers of one foot (actually, possibly 1:5000 does have the skill and kit to do it).

 

The amount of money that some people throw at bikes is astounding, yet there are others who manage quite happily with the same Halfords bike they've had for the past 25 years, and dont get noticably left-behind by the rest.

 

One of my bros has got heavily back into carp fishing since retiring, and seems to have enough gear to erect a portable village, live in it for a month, and equip all the villagers to fish for their dinners. I go fishing about once a year, using a rod I got at a jumble sale in 1975.

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8 minutes ago, ejstubbs said:

it must be either true or false; a "middle" option is "excluded"

So there can only be cake or no cake, there is no leaving a piece, now that’s an idea I can run with :laughclear:

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17 minutes ago, ejstubbs said:

This is an example of the "false dilemma fallacy"

 

It is more an example of the age-old human tendency to define "in" and "out" groups, which is what I was attempting to warn Mr Topham against doing .......... I know full-well that there are all sorts of gradations and shades, but as soon as anybody starts trying to define "modelling" or "modeller", which it looked worryingly is if Mr topham was in danger of attempting, all that gets trampled over, and a not-too-subtle version of "prisoners and inmates" eventuates.

 

In a case like this, there can be no "middle", because it is a question of classification, a question of definition: the set of criteria by which the class "modelling" is characterised is currently not settled, but once it is, after a massive, blood-letting argument, a thing either meets the criteria, or it doesn't. If there is doubt as to whether it does or doesn't, that simply highlights that the criteria haven't yet been drawn in sufficient detail or clarity (que yet more massive, blood-letting, arguments to refine the criteria).

 

The world is full of classification systems which are designed explicitly to permit no "middle", and they are essential in many applications: where they cause trouble is when they are used to draw boundaries that are designed primarily to create an "in" group, and an "out" group among people, merely for the aggrandisment of the "in" ......... apartheid of one kind or another.

 

If you knew that was what I was driving at: apologies for missing the point of what you are saying, and for banging-on.

Edited by Nearholmer
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2 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

The decline and demise of railway modelling has been predicted since before I was born (1960s)

 

If that was true, the Warley Show would be in a hut at the back of the Harry Mitchell Centre in Smethwick, rather than at the NEC since 1993-ish?

As far as I can see, things have never been so good for modellers with the amount of stuff available these days. It has always been a luxury though; all my early stuff was bought second-hand, because my parents & I couldn't afford new prices. The first brand new loco I had was the Mainline 03, for the sum of £12:95!! That was a luxury!!!

Agreed. In the late-fifties/early sixties, the price of any large Hornby Dublo locomotive represented roughly a week's wages for my father, who was in a skilled manual occupation at the time. I thus received a Tri-ang set (and a few extras) that together cost about the same as an HD Pacific, because dad realised I'd soon lose interest if I had nothing for my engine to pull... 

 

Compare that scenario with circa £200 for modern locomotives and I'd say that, if anything, the hobby has got considerably cheaper in real terms. What has changed is that we all think we want / need / deserve twenty times as much stuff as we made ourselves content with in those times.

 

Consumerism has changed attitudes beyond recognition in my lifetime, and the manufacturers naturally work around that. We are currently offered a selection of quality r-t-r products numbering several times what would have amounted to insane fantasy when I first got into model railways. That is both wonderful and challenging, but one thing it definitely isn't is a sign of a hobby in terminal decline!

 

The simple truth is, that hardly any of us can realistically afford (or even accommodate) all of what we would like, as opposed to what we truly want. and the avoidance of angst lies in identifying items that give us the greatest pleasure, get on with enjoying them, and stop worrying about the rest.    

 

I found the solution for me was to develop an interest in a particular bit of railway, at a particular period, and try to confine purchases to things that "fit in". Most of what I buy therefore has significance and context for me/my layout/future layouts/display cabinet. 

 

I still fall for the occasional irresistible  "lollipop", and probably always will, but I long ago learned that most of them will amuse me for a week or two, sit in their boxes for a year or two, then get traded in!

 

Most magazine reviews of such things are nowadays met with my reaction, "that's lovely, but what would I do with it", and I know I'm getting there!

 

John   

Edited by Dunsignalling
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I think of modelling as a very broad church and everyone has their own way of going about it. Not many years ago all the magazines were full of gloom and doom letters predicting the end of railway modelling as it was swept away by a tide of video games. The current very high quality of ready to run does appeal to collectors and may be unaffordable to others but it is keeping the hobby alive and the manufacturers in business. There are lower cost ways to get involved, providing its fun then any approach to modelling is fine by me. 

Edited by Hibelroad
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I think we've been spoilt for a few years when China took over production prices were cheap for a short while. Now they've been increasing rapidly the pay of their labour  prices have gone back up. Not yet high enough for loco production to return to the UK but it can't be far off.

 

Is it a luxury? yes of course it is, once you have fed and clothed yourself,   paid for house and home, anything else is a luxury because you are now wealthy.

My other hobby is sailing, which many say is standing up in a cold shower ripping up pound notes.. But like Model railways it doesn't have to be, my must pay costs for sailing almost every weekend over the last  20 years come out to less than £200 a year.... My optional costs add probably another £1000 to that...

 

 As for modelling there definitely has been an increase in " assemblers" rather than builders, buying Ready To Plonk buildings, trees, etc.

My interest is in the modelling, so purchase of ready made item's is limited, I'm not interested in Metcalfland. 

 

 So what is Modelling? All hand made down to the last rivet, or as some do, purchase of a pre built layout, and just adding a few items and rolling stock?

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Modelling itself does not have to be an expensive hobby, it just depends how you go about it. I have buildings that cost me literally pennies, made entirely out of household bits and rubbish, and I am not a skilled modeller. Work in progress below:


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(They are actually supposed to be dilapidated - I want a Victorian slum. Admittedly partly because it's easier at my skill level to build dilapidated houses than nice ones)

 

I would say that, for a hundred pounds, you can get a pretty decent start. That will get you a basic Hornby set. Or you could shop around, get some track, a trainset controller, a cheapo loco and some rolling stock to play with, maybe even some buildings or scenery. If the hobby isn't for you, you can sell the stuff on. If you decide you like it, you can work your way up (and you already have something to practice detailing, painting and weathering on).

 

I would argue that the real luxury these days is space. It's hard to build that layout of a lifetime if you can only afford to live in a small flat, or you're stuck with your parents, or you're renting.

Edited by HonestTom
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Hi all,

I think the term Model railways is a hangover from making kits. Do not forget that before the advent of the many commercial companies if you wanted something specific you built it your self. Whether a building ,coach or engine etc. Hence the modelling term. We have been in recent years spoilt by the massive increase in the rare and unusual engines now commercially produced. So that the once great need for kits to expand our engine stables is no longer there. Still nice to have them but not not as important. It is not just the engines but everything related to model railways. Now we do not have to spend months building that engine we wanted as it is now commercially available we have turned our attention to the scenic aspect. This has leaped on in huge bounding steps with the advent of static grass, proper looking water etc all easily available if not a bit pricy. But what counts as a model railway. Do these pictures still count as they are not a perfect representation of a place.  In truth the answer is of course it is all model railways. Simply because it does not matter what we do. We do it because we like playing with trains. As to the question about model railways being a luxury. As stated here of course it is a luxury. Anything we do that is not directly related to staying alive and providing for ourselves and families is a luxury. And like all luxury's they cost.

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Edited by cypherman
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Maybe it isn’t a luxury…

 

It could be that we are hardwired to make and invent. We are a tool making species after all, always busy in our thoughts trying to advance our position in the world, understand our world and developing culture for social adhesion etc. Maybe we always have to be doing something. What we now call a hobby is a reflection that we would always be trying our hands at something, whether recording the past on the cave wall, carving likenesses or figurines whilst sitting around the hearth, telling stories, making maps, refining tools etc… we are compelled.

Edited by Gareth-Ingram
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3 hours ago, HonestTom said:

I would argue that the real luxury these days is space. It's hard to build that layout of a lifetime if you can only afford to live in a small flat, or you're stuck with your parents, or you're renting.

 

Yes Tom, I agree with this analysis. I would also add that "headspace" is also a luxury. Being in a position to engage in an activity to the extent you enter the flow state is, what with one thing and another, a privilege. The problems you list are things that might play on one's mind and encroach on well deserved "fun" activities which hobbies are meant to be. 

 

As for costs, as I said I would love my hobby to be ridiculously expensive but I am not in the position to allow for that. The way I model, which is to scratch build in styrene is, once you have sufficient tools, a very cheap way of doing things. Detail parts are initially an expense but these tend to accumulate over time so can be used on other projects. 

 

In my opinion, the nearer I get to building something from scratch the more rewarding the experience of hobby time is...FOR ME! The further away from digital impositions such as the net, be it in terms of e-commerce or streaming or dare I say forums, the happier I seem to be in my hobby time. I confess, I am spending much more time thinking, writing and reading about the hobby than I am engaging physically with it and if I am honest, this is detrimental to my fulfilment levels. This is not the case for everyone I know, but I can't help but think total unplugging is a good thing from time to time. 

 

engagement in miniature railways to the exclusion of all other concerns for 10 minutes plus is the hobby as far as I am concerned. I don't think there are actually that many dictators in this hobby, just people with robust views which can seem judgemental. It takes all sorts!

 

 

  

Edited by westernviscount
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Okay. I'll bite with the "modelling" and "non modelling".

 

Is buying model railway items, keeping them in boxes and putting them into storage actually modelling? I would say no.

 

 

It's a bit like calling someone who owns a Picasso an artist. Or someone who collects guitars is suddenly a musician because he has a 1962 Fender Stratocaster on the wall.

 

Yet that is a huge part of the hobby. Look at the Hattons pre-owned section or auctions at the amount of items that have never been out of their boxes. Many of them bought by people who have no intention of ever using them or even putting them on display.

 

 

 

Whatever floats your boat. But please don't equate collecting with modelling, they are two separate hobbies.

 

Non modellers exist. They aren't a myth made up as a derogatory comment. Don't take it as such. :)

 

 

Jason

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