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Frustrated beginner requiring help with point wiring


Iain1491
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15 minutes ago, Monkersson said:

 

 

I power my points using servos under analog control, and use nothing more exotic than a microswitch to change the frog polarity.

An eminently suitable means, which can easily be converted to DCC operation if required.

 

My very first foray into DCC about 15 or so years ago consisted of a 4' x 1'  shunting plank with 3 or 4 points and a diamond just to get a feel of DCC.

The track was from my DC operated layout in the previous house.

The points and the crossing were unmodified Insulfrog code 100, operated manually with H&M point motors via a Thyristor from a DC supply

Later I had a Lenz LS150 to drive the motors from DCC

I only had a couple of locos fitted with Lenz 1000 decoders. It all worked perfectly.

 

Edited by melmerby
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5 hours ago, RobinofLoxley said:

Mike, Mr Crewlisle appears to be suggesting

Robin,

 

The main thing I was commenting on with regard to Mr Crewlisle's posting was the sentence prominently highlighted by him in bold about not using polarity switches or other gizmos. My point is that such things are used on both DC and DCC layouts to deal with a specific problem, that of shorting caused by metal wheels bridging the stock rail and switch rail of an electrofrog turnout.

 

I also pointed out that this problem can occur with modern finer scale wheels - it happened to me recently with a brand new loco and I have read other folks accounts of similar things.

 

I don't think that the mechanisms used to control accessories are a relevant part of the discussion here - the problem exists whether the turnouts are controlled manually or are driven electrically. The solution is broadly similar in all cases: modified turnouts with a need to provide power to the frog which changes with the setting of the turnout. The mechanism used for frog power can vary and each person probably has their favoured one - my choice is the switch built in to the point motors that I use, but there are plenty of alternatives.

 

It is certainly important for folk who plan to use electrofrog turnouts to be aware of this problem, since if they install the turnouts unmodified and later experience the shorting problem, it may be a difficult job to extract those turnouts from a fully-built layout in order to modify them to solve the problem. 

 

Yours, Mike.

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Perhaps we have a different understanding of the word, but I do not think that Crewlisle's description of polarity switches and rail bonding as "gizmos" is appropriate.  To me they are simple modifications that will save you trouble in the long run.  This topic is one that has cropped up regularly over the years and Crewlisle often has dismissed, with fervour, the idea of frog switching.  In some posts in the past he has revealed what seems to me the essential weakness of his argument, by saying that to avoid problems with switchblades you have to clean them regularly.  On even a medium sized layout this is a boring and unnecessary chore.  It is not difficult to bond the blades and switch the frog.  Peco points these days are designed to facilitate the work.  If you can't cope because you can't solder or your intellectual capacity is insufficient to understand the principles, then model railways are probably not the hobby for you, as they will provide more frustration than pleasure.

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Since I wrote my comments on 15/9 I expected various comments from other contributors pointing out that some of my statements were probably poor practice - I was not disappointed!  That is their opinion, but these are my actual experiences since starting my 00 gauge layout 'Crewlisle' 47 years ago.   As the saying goes, 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it!'  The basic layout design has not changed because it works & has entertained at exhibitions for the last 38 years!  Google 'Crewlisle' to see the track plan on line.

 

1.  Since starting in the mid 70's, my stock has increased to 53 locos (11 with sound) including steam, diesels, HST, Midland Pullman, APT & classes 85, 86 & 87 from various manufacturers ie, Mainline, Airfix, Lima, Hornby & Bachmann & over 200 items of rolling stock.  There is no fiddle yard (less points to worry about for shorts, etc.) but I have 14 space saving cassettes on a rack under the baseboard, each of which can be slotted into the reversing loop inside the operating well. The reversing loop leaves the 'down' main (inside track), opposite the coaling stage, down through the operating well, under the bottom & right hand baseboards & joins the 'up' main under the coaling stage. These cassettes are emptied/refilled from the stock boxes as required.  For longer trains, 2 expresses (each consisting of 1 loco + 6 coaches) can be held on the other section of the reversing loop in addition to the cassette for shorter trains.

 

2.  The last point I fitted was about 15 years ago, just before converting to DCC.   It must have been an original 'basic' Peco Code 100 Electrofrog as this was before the design was changed with additional breaks in the switch blades & additional wiring between the frog, stock & switch rails.  So all 29 of my Electrofrogs & converted Insulfrogs have been fitted with the power supply at the heel end + just nylon IRJs as required at the frog end.  I cannot recall any incidents where loco wheels have shorted out on a point between the stock rail & switch rail.  My only shorts on the layout have been caused by knocking over stock, not aligning wheels when putting on track or dropping a metal object across the track!  I hope that Iain1491 has managed to fix his problem. 

 

3.  Fortunately after 38 years of exhibiting, both myself & the layout are in good health!  Even with my other 4 helpers the stock boxes, baseboards, lights, etc have got heavier at each outing!  I hope it stays that way, as in November 2022 'Crewlisle' will be exhibited at the Warley NEC show for the 6th & final time.  What better high to finish exhibiting a layout than at the NEC?

 

Peter

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Iain,

 

With reference to my previous posts, I think I may have a suggestion to help your search for a solution to your problem.  Over the years, many modellers wanted Peco to improve their track/points to look more realistic.  They have done this by introducing Code 75 track/points.  As I have stated many times & in this post that I cannot recall ever having  any shorts on my electro frog points with any locos or stock passing over them.  And then I looked at your two photos.

The right hand photo shows an old style electro frog point, the same as the 29 electro frog points fitted on my layout.  Now look at the left hand photo of the new style electro frog point, especially the gap between the stock rail & switch blade & rail gaps at the frog.  The gap on my electro frogs is 3mm; those on the 'new' design look to be about 2mm hence the reason for having to fit switches.  Because of the larger gaps on my points is the reason I have not had any shorts (except by accidents) when passing over them.  I don't know if Peco have reduced the gaps on their Code 100 track/points.

The possible reason for your problems is dirty solenoid coils & current tracking across your switch terminals.  When setting my own layout up after lengthy storage, beside physical track cleaning I also checked electrical contacts with a multimeter.  I made some surprise discoveries!  When checking the point motor & the Peco PL10 polarity switches that change the track polarity on my live diamond, I was getting quite a high reading.  I reduced the readings to almost zero after:

1.  Cleaning between the point blades, small tabs under the switch rails & the track with a Peco track rubber & 'Track Magic'.  It is surprising the amount of dirt which accumulates.

2.  Cleaning the solenoids, point tie bar & PL10 polarity switch with 'Servisol Super 10'.  Do the same with your micro switches on your points then activate the points by hand to work the 'Servisol' into the switch/solenoid.   'Servisol Super 10' is a recognised electrical switch/solenoid cleaner & does exactly what it says on the can!  It can also be used on potentiometers to avoid 'crackling/interference' on guitars & other electrical equipment.  Every so often I take the back off my LH90 throttles & give the potentiometer a good squirt.

Yes it is a lot of work, but if you are having problems that is what is required but never use WD40!

 

Peter

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