Help understanding service timetables / WCVTT

[The Fatadder]

I find these old documents fascinating, so I have been trying to use the available online resources to pull together a full working timetable for Brent.  My first attempt was ok, however there were a few issues (I only included the time through Brent which made cross checking data more difficult, and didnt flag where I had made assumptions due to incomplete data).  

 

As much as I would love to do this for the September 1947 onwards, I have yet to obtain the required information (the one time I did find something on eBay it sold for well over £100, I guess because the final GWR edition is quite collectable).  Thankfully on Michael Clemment's website there is a full version of the September 1949 working timetable, there is also the corresponding September 1949 WCVTT document on the BRCoaching Group (which also has a September 1956 Plymouth District Working of Coaches and Trailers).    At the moment the main thing I am missing is the additional notes, in particular there is nothing listed for the numerous Saturday only workings, which is a shame as for Brent Saturday looks to be the best day to have an operating session given it included the Kingsbridge - London train.

 

For the Kingsbridge branch I have taken the time table, and the known requirements (ie the arrival of a second engine with the Newton Abbot - Kingsbridge goods, the requirement for two trains to pass at Gara on the 7pm Brent - Kingsbridge / 7:45 Kingsbridge - Brent).  Which at least all balances (though I dont know if it is correct.)

 

So far I have ran into a few questions which I would welcome guidance on.

 

First up, what document do I need to be looking out for in order to find formations for the Saturday Only workings?

 

The service timetable details the SO Perenporth - Paddington as having a section being collected at Kingsbridge up to September 24th (oddly 2 days before the date on the cover of the document).  However in the section for the Kingsbridge branch, one Saturday Only service is shown however it arrives at Brent an hour after the Perrenporth - Paddington has left.  I'm assuming its a case of one page being up to date and one page not (although the Kingsbridge branch page does show an ECS move on SO which I assumed was the transfer of coaches for the onward service.   Even without adding this missing service the Saturday Kingsbridge timetable has one more working in the North bound direction than the South, so would presumably require a light engine movement.

 

There are two up workings for which there does not appear to be an entry in the WCVTT, the 21:20 Penzance - Paddington Sleeping Cars and the 20:15 Penzance - Paddington passenger.  The former is a bit odd (a leftover from the prior edition maybe?) in the 20:45 PZ - Pad (which does have an entry in the WCVTT) includes 5 sleeping cars!  The latter does contain the words "Suspended" across the lines for Carn Brae / Carn Brae Junction, does this denote the whole working suspended or just a stop I wonder?

 

Heading towards London, if an entry is marked for Banking Engine added / detached at Totness, would this be an addition or removal?  For example the 23:55 Tavistock Jct - Bristol West freight indicates 4 minutes Tavy Jct - Hemerdon for BE purposes, but does not include the BE flag for addition / removal of a banking engine.  at Totness it does include the BE, but is unclear if this is removal or addition.  For the Down direction I have taken the assumption that if it says BE between Newton and Tigley it is present at Brent.  I cant recall where assistance is needed in the up direction to properly interpret the documents.

 

If anyone would like a copy, happy to share my file, while the specific's are for brent, the core of the file could be used for anywhere between Plymouth and Brent (I have only included the formations that are valid through here, so any Kingswear portions joining at Newton Abbot are omitted.  Likewise the Cornish portions are combined with the Plymouth portion on London Expresses.  It may still be a useful start point to anyone else interested in such things.

 

From a modelling perspective it has been quite interesting in throwing out ideas for things to model, especially where specific coaches are labelled (and where there are interesting additions to a consist).  One day when the layout is complete the ambition still remains to run a full 24 hour sequence over several days.  

 

 

 

 

[Neal Ball]

Morning Rich, have you tried asking Mike aka @The Stationmaster, what he doesn’t know about WTT isn’t worth knowing!

 

Good luck  - I find these old documents fascinating. I have a public timetable from I think the late 30’s which must have been a proof copy as there are annotations on it. I could stare at such things all day.

[Brassey]

I admire your ambition of running a 24hr timetable.  I have the same and have accumulated all the required info (WTT's etc.) for 1912.  When analysing I did not come across the same challenges as you (I model the LNWR/GWR joint line) such as banking etc.  However, a lot was available in the LNWR Society Archives including the weekly notices.  These may include finer details that may fill in the gaps in your knowledge.

 

It strikes me, there must be some GWR equivalent of the Archives, maybe the GWS, that have some of the weekly notices.  Sorry I can't be of any more help.

 

Edit: there is also usually an "Appendix to the Working Timetable" which is actually quite a large document and covers a lot of detail.  Do you have any of these?

Edited August 28, 2021 by Brassey

[ikcdab]

There is a complete set of WTTs and the various appendices  held at Kew. Free to view and copy.

Ian C

[Siberian Snooper]

Totnes would have two banking engines one for up trains banking to Dainton and a Down, banking to Rattery.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

Things various.

 

The Appendix to the GWR section 6 STT (the GWR and early WR called them Service Timetables) is quite a thin document - the 1939 edition only had 101 pages.  i expect there was revised edition issued post-war as many of them were revised around the late 1940s - very early 1950s

 

Booked banking engines were of course listed in the STT so we know what would normally have been at any location unless it was altered in a supplement or by Notice.  However the problem then arises of knowing which trains in reality were assisted because some Drivers would go without the booked assistance if things were going well while trains not booked for assistance might well require it if they had been strengthened with additional vehicles (shown by Notice or arranged at short notice) anda Driver havinga rough trip would ask for assistance if he thought he would run into trouble on the gradients.

 

Summer Saturday mainline coach working programmes were probably issued separately and that period was one if moving targets as services were reintroduced.  I have the winter 1946/47 Through Trains Coach  Coaches & Vans working and it was reissued to apply from March 17 1947 although I haven't checked the changes and it was also further slightly amended before its end date in May 1947.  regrettably - like almost every other operating document - these things are only of real detail use if you have the amendments or if you know the amendments exist.   Originally archived example - possibly at Kew are likely to have amendments with them.  incidentally Brian McDermott has a various examples of all this sort of stuff so might be worth asking?

 

Overall in view of the way things were changing on that period I wouldn't be at all surprised if the 1947 Summer Saturdays programme was issued quite late.  The thing to remember with all of this sort of documentation is that the originally published stuff - if it has survived - is merely a snapshot of what it was on the day the document went to the printers, amendments are, regrettably,  crucial to getting the whole picture.   I do incidentally have the GWR October 1947 STT, and when I say 'the STT' that is exactly what I mean as it is all the sections bound into one so is impossible to photocopy,, and very difficult to even photograph, without damaging it. (It cost me £200 some years ago and as I outbid a dealer I suspect he would have been reselling it for twice that.)

[BMacdermott]

Hello Rich

 

I don't think I can be of much help here. Without the relevant books and amends, we are flying blind.

 

This does, however, give you carte blanche to make it up as you go along. I can't say what happened at your time period, but Swindon Works ran a number of staff holiday trains.

 

In 1956, No.1 Special was Swindon-St Ives, although the Brake Second, 7 Seconds and Brake Second came up as ECS from Tavistock Junction, passing Brent at 12.12pm. The train departed Swindon at 9.55pm, attached assisting loco at Newton Abbot, then detaching AE at Brent between 1.36am and 1.40am. St Ives arrival was 4.55am.

 

Brian

[ikcdab]

I'm not sure what part of the country you are in. But the West Somerset Railway has a copy of the 1947 Timetable in its collection at Bishops Lydeard. I can't remember if it's the STT or the WTT but it is a book more than 6 inches thick. This can be consulted by prior arrangement.

[The Fatadder]

Thanks for all of the advice, most appreciated.   I will contact the WSR and see which issue of the 47 timetable they have, would definitely be a viable visit for the new year with the rest of the family being able to go for a train ride.

 

While there are still a lot of omissions in the Saturday workings, my matched timetable / workings of carriages and vans for September 49 is now complete. (If anyone one would like a copy of my excel file I can email it, while the source files are on their respective websites).  It's quite interesting watching the change from the Sep 46 workings of carriages / vans, through the Sep 48 to the Sep 49, with the increases of interesting vehicles and small changes to formations as things slowly returned to normality.  

 

Now back to building up the stock, and hoping to eventually one day manage to repeat this process with the documents from September 47

Edited September 6, 2021 by The Fatadder

[Brassey]

8 hours ago, The Fatadder said:

Now back to building up the stock,

How much stock do you think you will need for a 24hour timetable?

[The Fatadder]

20 minutes ago, Brassey said:

How much stock do you think you will need for a 24hour timetable?

The way I’ve been looking at it, it’s a case of building up enough of the specific coaches and then rearranging them to model each service.   All sets are condemned down to 6, 7 or 8 coaches (further reducing the need).  Then I just need enough brakes, thirds and composites to form the maximum in each rake. 
 

my fiddleyard is the biggest constraint with only 3 roads in each direction, so it would be a case of run 8 trains then rearrange before doing the next 8.   My 24 hours plan would then be spread over several operating sessions 

[The Fatadder]

20 minutes ago, Brassey said:

How much stock do you think you will need for a 24hour timetable?

The way I’ve been looking at it, it’s a case of building up enough of the specific coaches and then rearranging them to model each service.   All sets are condemned down to 6, 7 or 8 coaches (further reducing the need).  Then I just need enough brakes, thirds and composites to form the maximum in each rake. 
 

my fiddleyard is the biggest constraint with only 3 roads in each direction, so it would be a case of run 8 trains then rearrange before doing the next 8.   My 24 hours plan would then be spread over several operating sessions 

[Brassey]

52 minutes ago, The Fatadder said:

The way I’ve been looking at it, it’s a case of building up enough of the specific coaches and then rearranging them to model each service.   All sets are condemned down to 6, 7 or 8 coaches (further reducing the need).  Then I just need enough brakes, thirds and composites to form the maximum in each rake. 
 

my fiddleyard is the biggest constraint with only 3 roads in each direction, so it would be a case of run 8 trains then rearrange before doing the next 8.   My 24 hours plan would then be spread over several operating sessions 

 

My analysis of the data showed I would need around 70 vehicles to run a 24 timetable. 
 

My issues are the same but I am reluctant to frequently handle the stock to rearrange formations. And apart from fiddle yard, there is also the issue of storage. I think Tony Wright has storage for about 70 trains on Little Bytham. 

I don’t have his room nor have I come up with an answer yet.

[The Stationmaster]

One answer is to use cassettes.  Not as daft as it sounds bcause they would be for part coaching sets only so some shunting would still be needed to completely form a train.  And the fiddle yard would need the necessary 'cassette connection road' to enable cassettes to be shunted on and off the layout plus of course a suitable cassette storage area.   Might be worth thinking about as it would involve less work that shifting considerable amounyts of stock vehicle by vehicle.