Anyone recognise these decoders

[russell price]

All removed from various eBay purchases!! The Airfix one must be about 1981. I remember the system coming out!! 2 appear to be identical and the 4 th one is another lone example. I’m still a dinosaur and all my locos are still powered by Duettes and Clippers. Have contemplated a small DCC layout to see how it gos. Are these the decoders any use assuming they haven’t been fried!! Maybe they are Zero 1??  This is not my usual area. Any help and pointers welcome! If any use to anyone then I may well be parting with them.

[Jonboy]

Apparently the airfix one is their own analogue precursor to dcc and not compatible with anything else http://www.airfixrailways.co.uk/MTC.htm

[russell price]

Yes I thought the airfix one maybe unique to their system. Anyone need one?? I remember the system coming out shortly after Zero 1.

[Mike Buckner]

I bought the Airfix MTC system. It was very poor. The published specification was that you could have a up to 16 independently controlled locomotives on the track at one time. Each "decoder" was tuned to a particular frequency. The central unit could broadcast on up to 16 frequencies simultaneously. Tuning the decoder was done by selecting a target frequency on the central unit, then turning a screw within the decoder with a screwdriver, one way and the other till it gave an optimum responsiveness.

 

There were several problems:
- the tuning wasn't stable, it would drift and require frequent re-tuning

- if you tuned 2 locos to different frequencies, then each loco would respond correctly when it was the only loco on the track, but when both were on the track there was bad crosstalk and commands sent to one loco would cause a partial change in speed in the other loco 
- the design caused very bad pitting of those metal loco wheels which were wired for pickup

 

Not long afterwards, I gave it up as a bad job. I took it apart and was surprised to find a lot of digital circuitry in the central unit, despite the encoding being frequency-based.

[cypherman]

Hi all,

Not sure but I think the bottom picture is a Triang/Hornby zero 1 chip.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

The last photo seems to shew a current type 21 pin DCC decoder.

 

This also seems to have  wired interface, as well as the black socket?

 

21 pin DCC decoder…

 

The other encapsulated units are Hornby Railways Zero 1 loco modules.

R.955 Zero 1 Locomotive Module 

 

Like the Airfix MTC (Multiple Train Control) system, Zero 1 is a proprietary format, and not compatible with anything else.

 

 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Ruffnut Thorston
Photos added.

[BernardTPM]

Interesting article on Zero1 here. There is some compatibility with DCC.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Hi.

 

I have read through that article, and cannot see any direct DCC compatibility.

 

Yes, apparently ZTC DCC control systems have (or had, it’s an older article…) a setting to allow them to control Zero 1 decoder equipped locomotives. And ZTC did manufacture Zero 1 compatible decoders.

 

I stand by my belief that basically, these early systems were not compatible with anything else, with the noted exceptions of the Hammant & Morgan APT, Advanced Power Transmitter, and H&M APT decoders, and some ZTC controllers and decoders, being compatible with the  Hornby Zero 1 system.

 

The Airfix MTC system was, apparently, not compatible with anything else.

 

(That article also gets a bit confused with the Hornby name history….)

[Pete the Elaner]

18 hours ago, russell price said:

All removed from various eBay purchases!! The Airfix one must be about 1981. I remember the system coming out!! 2 appear to be identical and the 4 th one is another lone example. I’m still a dinosaur and all my locos are still powered by Duettes and Clippers. Have contemplated a small DCC layout to see how it gos. Are these the decoders any use assuming they haven’t been fried!! Maybe they are Zero 1??  This is not my usual area. Any help and pointers welcome! If any use to anyone then I may well be parting with them.

 

 

My opinion here:

If you are thinking of having a go with DCC, don't use "any" decoder & expect good performance with it (although you could get lucky).

An entry-level decoder from 10-15 years ago will be unlikely to work as well as a decent modern one and you may get a bad impression of DCC because of poor decoder choice.

[kevinlms]

2 hours ago, Ruffnut Thorston said:

Hi.

 

I have read through that article, and cannot see any direct DCC compatibility.

 

Yes, apparently ZTC DCC control systems have (or had, it’s an older article…) a setting to allow them to control Zero 1 decoder equipped locomotives. And ZTC did manufacture Zero 1 compatible decoders.

 

I stand by my belief that basically, these early systems were not compatible with anything else, with the noted exceptions of the Hammant & Morgan APT, Advanced Power Transmitter, and H&M APT decoders, and some ZTC controllers and decoders, being compatible with the  Hornby Zero 1 system.

 

The Airfix MTC system was, apparently, not compatible with anything else.

 

(That article also gets a bit confused with the Hornby name history….)

Wasn't there another system, that had an entry level controller, consisting of 5 knobs of different colours, each one capable of controlling 1 loco? Never had one, just remember seeing the ads in the magazines.

[BernardTPM]

There was one called 'Solata' or something like that. Non-digital, like Airfix.

2 hours ago, Ruffnut Thorston said:

That article also gets a bit confused with the Hornby name history….

That's not difficult

Edited August 30, 2021 by BernardTPM

[CKPR]

39 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Wasn't there another system, that had an entry level controller, consisting of 5 knobs of different colours, each one capable of controlling 1 loco? Never had one, just remember seeing the ads in the magazines.

I think that was made by either Randalls (who had the 'Merit' range before it was sold to Peco and became 'Modelscene') or ECM [ 'Selectrol' ?]

[laurenceb]

ECM. IIRC it used Airfix decoders

[russell price]

Thank you Everyone for your identification of the various historical artefacts! I think i will put them on ebay and see if any Airfix or Hornby  Collectors snap them up!!! Lol  If anyone here wants them first then shout up. 

As for my own ideas on DCC it is unlikely i would go down that route without trying the latest stuff as technology has moved on so much. Was just asking the question before the stuff gets dumped cluttering up the spares box!!

Thanks

Russell

[kevinlms]

11 hours ago, CKPR said:

I think that was made by either Randalls (who had the 'Merit' range before it was sold to Peco and became 'Modelscene') or ECM [ 'Selectrol' ?]

ECM Selectrol. Thanks for the prompt.

[GoingUnderground]

The history of Hornby models and the use of the name is quite simple, really, if you separate the name from the models that bore it and just look at the lineage of the models themselves and then at names under which they were sold:

 

Hornby:

0 Gauge:

1920  >>> 1960 Hornby 

 

OO Gauge:

1938  >>>  1964  - Hornby Dublo, produced at Binns Road, Liverpool.

1964  >>>  1968  - No models produced. Selected 2 rail locos sold off under Triang Hornby brand. Remaining stocks of 2 and 3 rail models sold off through the model trade.

1968  >>>  1971 - Triang Wrenn, from new production by G&R Wrenn at Basildon.

1972  >>>  1992 - Wrenn Railways, produced by G&R Wrenn, Basildon.

1992  >>>  2001 - Dapol, but only a limited selection from the old HD range.

2001  >>>  Today - G&R Wrenn for collectors primarily.

 

For the Rovex/Triang OO models the picture is much, much simpler:

1950  >>> 1952 - Rovex, produced at Richmond.

1953  >>> 1955 - Triang Railways, produced at Richmond.

1955  >>> 1965 - Triang Railways, produced at Margate.

1965  >>> 1971 - Triang Hornby, produced at Margate.

1972  >>> 1995 - Hornby Railways/Hornby, produced at Margate. *

1995  >>> Today - Hornby Railways/Hornby, produced under sub-contract in China.

 

* The 1972 18th edition catalogue is branded Triang Hornby as it was printed before the sale of Rovex to Dunbee-Combex-Marx by the Lines Bros liquidator.

 

The Zero 1 system was the brave first attempt at a digital system in a time when microcomputers were in their infancy. Maerklin also introduced their own digital system in the 1980s. Zero 1 is not compatible with DCC, which itself was a development of a second digital system from Maerklin this time created by Maerkkin and Lenz Elektronik. 

 

A guy called Robin Palmer was said to have been involved with the development of the Zero 1 system, and when Hornby discontinued it, Palmer founded ZTC (said to stand for (Zero Two Company) to try to keep the Zero 1 system alive and exploit better technology as it became available. Many of the early ZTC DCC decoders were Zero 1 compatible as well as being DCC, but the later ones were DCC only as interest in Zero 1 dried up. The ZTC511 had a Zero 1 mode, but was not multi-protocol as it could only be switched between one of 3 modes: true DC, Zero 1 or DCC. 

 

If you want to try going digital don't waste your time on the early digital systems from Hornby or Airfix, just go DCC with new decoders, and a decent DCC command station. There does seem to be some very minimal residual interest in the Zero 1 system so you could try putting the decoders on auction sites. But don't expect folks to be falling over each other with bids.

Edited September 6, 2021 by GoingUnderground
To correct dates and clarify brand name in 1972

[BernardTPM]

1 hour ago, GoingUnderground said:

The history of Hornby models and the use of the name is quite simple

The actual company name and ownership changed rather more though. Minor note, it was Triang Hornby until 1971 (the 1968-70 catalogues were marked 'Triang Hornby Minic').

 

The Airfix system wasn't digital.

[andyman7]

From the link above it appears that the RRP in 1979 of the Airfix MTC system main unit (which came with two receivers and two hand controllers) was £85 - this equates to a mind-boggling £439 at current prices 

 

[Happy Hippo]

13 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

From the link above it appears that the RRP in 1979 of the Airfix MTC system main unit (which came with two receivers and two hand controllers) was £85 - this equates to a mind-boggling £439 at current prices 

 

About the same price as a modern 5 Amp DCC system.

 

[andyman7]

1 hour ago, Happy Hippo said:

About the same price as a modern 5 Amp DCC system.

 

Yes, but that is top of the range - and it works properly 

[BernardTPM]

The Airfix sytem was much cheaper by 1983 - remaindered... IIRC something like £15 with a couple of extra decoders.

[kevinlms]

16 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

The Airfix sytem was much cheaper by 1983 - remaindered... IIRC something like £15 with a couple of extra decoders.

Of course it's something someone, a retailer? was flogging off for what they could get. Anything better than nothing.

 

Reminds me of an old computer magazine, that had 33k modems for sale, for I can't remember how much say $350. The older model 28k was discounted to say $250.

Makes you wonder how much the retailer lost on their remaining 28k modems, considering that they probably paid far more than the new selling price.

A large retailer could easy have 50 modems on the shelf to sell at $100 loss each. Early computer gear, quickly was replaced by cheaper models that worked better.

This advertiser did go broke not long afterwards.

[GoingUnderground]

On 03/09/2021 at 00:19, BernardTPM said:

The actual company name and ownership changed rather more though. Minor note, it was Triang Hornby until 1971 (the 1968-70 catalogues were marked 'Triang Hornby Minic').

 

The Airfix system wasn't digital.

Thanks for correcting my dates, I should have checked myself before posting.

 

But I'll think you'll find that there was no "Hornby" company as such, same as there was no "Dinky" company. They were just brand names used by Meccano Limited for its non-Meccano construction system products to differentiate them from Meccano itself. So the question of ownership of the Hornby "company" doesn't arise. It was a registered trade mark, just like the Triang name, and it ended up being owned by Rovex who progressively through the 1960s became the focus for management, control, and manufacture of the Lines Bros Group's range of plastic models, including Scalextric.

 

On the subject of catalogue "names", including Minic in the railways catalogue was a marketing exercise intended to boost the sales of Minic Motorways following the move of the manufacture of the Minic Motorways from Minimodels at Canterbury to Rovex at Margate. It was a natural move as Minic Motorways had been designed from the start to be compatible with the Triang Railways OO gauge system, and took up slack caused by the gradual decline in the sales of model railways through the 1960s.

 

And it wasn't the first time that the OO railways system catalogue included other products from the Triang range. Previous Triang Railways catalogues had included: the Triang Lionel science kits (9th edition - 1963);  the 3mm TT system (9th edition - 1963); Minic Motorways (10th edition 1964 with the Minic Motorways name and logo on the front cover); and, the Model-Land building kits (10th edition - 1964) which were never sold under the Triang or Triang Hornby brand. The 1965 11th edition had a picture on the back featuring Minic Motorways, Arklitex, and Model-Land items to show how they could all be used together, along with their respective logos at the top of the page. There was also the inclusion of the Triang Wrenn models in the 1969, '70, '71 and '72 catalogues.

 

Also the 1972 18th edition bore the Triang Hornby logo and name, but it was printed before the sale of Rovex to Dunbee-Combex-Marx by the Lines Bros liquidator and the loss of access to the Triang name. Presumably some agreement was struck to allow existing packaging (the boxes) and stationery (the 1972 catalogue, instruction leaflets etc.) to be used up.

[BernardTPM]

Yes, they were never that consistent over which of the other compatible brands were included in the catalogue. Probably 1964 where you have Model Land and Minic Motorways alongside Tri-ang Railways was the most inclusive, but even then the 4mm version of Arkitex wasn't included and the MINIX cars were only shown where included as loads on wagons.

All put together for those catalogue pictures they were quite a treat.

The owning company has been Hornby Hobbies Ltd. but apparently is now called Hornby plc.

 

[Ruffnut Thorston]

The 1964 catalogue is famous for featuring a whole load of items that were not actually made.

 

 

 

A lot of Tri-ang Model Land buildings, including a Town Hall, and Coal Mine surface buildings, (featured in the cover picture) some vehicles to be part of the Tri-ang Model Land range, including an aircraft are pictured, but never released.

 

 

 

 

 

The factory was actually produced, but sold as separate buildings.

 

 

The pylons were made, and were one of the items sold in Hornby Railways packaging, along with the church, years later.

 

 

 

https://www.brightontoymuseum.co.uk/index/Category:Model-Land

 

Some fairground rides to be marketed as part of the Minic Motorways system, with M prefix catalogue numbers are also pictured, but never released.

 

 

https://www.brightontoymuseum.co.uk/index/Category:Minic_Motorways_Fairground

 

 

Thread drift! 
 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 4, 2021 by Ruffnut Thorston
Comment added