Crossover on Sidings - what control/signalling

[Joseph_Pestell]

Hopefully my rather crude diagram will post to make things a bit clearer.

 

Looking to model a mainline "might-have-been station, Midland Rly origins but circa 1960 (Bradford Forster Square LL).

 

There is an Up Main Platform and a Down Main Platform with two carriage sidings between. Halfway along the sidings there is a crossover, mainly so that the station pilot can run round.

 

What should control that crossover? The South Signal Box, The North Signal Box, or a local frame? If the latter, as I think, there is presumably some sort of release lever in one or both boxes.

 

And what about ground signals? Are they redundant if trains can be hand-signalled?

 

No luck so far in finding a suitable example on SRS.

 

Note: There is a road bridge with station building that would block any view from the South Box (RH side on plan).

 

PS: As I thought, it does not like the file format. I will try to save as something else and come back,

[bécasse]

If the crossover is between two sidings (as you say) then it would be worked by hand levers, quite probably a separate lever for each end, and there would be no fixed signals, ground or otherwise. The responsibility for safe working would lie with the shunter if there is one or otherwise the loco/train crew, speeds would be low anyway. The shunter would communicate with the loco/train crew using hand signals as comprehensively described in the Rule Book. If there was a train involved and there was no shunter then the guard would effectively take the role of the shunter, and if there was just a loco involved without a shunter the fireman/secondman would take that role. In some locations it would be necessary to come to understanding with the signalman as to the shunting to be undertaken (for example, if the shunting in progress would prevent the acceptance of an arriving train into a reception road) but in others that was unnecessary.

[5BarVT]

Agree with bécasse that ‘nothing’ is quite acceptable.

Wolverhampton LL had that arrangement and it was worked from South signalbox.   Both South and North are on SRS.

Paul.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Always a bit wary of taking an example from GW! But I had not thought of Wolverhampton. I will take a look.

 

Meanwhile, I have reformatted the sketch as a .pdf

Bradford F.S. Low Level.pdf

[Joseph_Pestell]

On 01/09/2021 at 19:27, bécasse said:

If the crossover is between two sidings (as you say) then it would be yo. The responsibility for safe working would lie with the shunter if there is one or otherwise the loco/train crew, speeds would be low anyway. The shunter would communicate with the loco/train crew using hand signals as comprehensively described in the Rule Book. If there was a train involved and there was no shunter then the guard would effectively take the role of the shunter, and if there was just a loco involved without a shunter the fireman/secondman would take that role. In some locations it would be necessary to come to understanding with the signalman as to the shunting to be undertaken (for example, if the shunting in progress would prevent the acceptance of an arriving train into a reception road) but in others that was unnecessary.

 

Thank you for confirming my thoughts - local lever and a telephone to keep in touch with the signalman.

[Johnny Rock]

I am having similar questions regarding signalling from my Kirkby Stephen goods yard to the main down line. I've found an old OS  map circa 1911 which shows a starter signal in the yard leading traffic out onto the down line to Carlisle.

It shows a signal near the signal box . wondering if this would have actually been there?

 

[The Stationmaster]

The yard would have had a signal  for the connection where the sidings joined the running line - normal signalling practice.

[bécasse]

Not just normal signalling practice but required by law unless the connection from the siding(s) was controlled by an immediately adjacent ground frame. The signal could be a ground signal (or even just a point indicator) or a subsidiary arm mounted on a post.

[Compound2632]

11 hours ago, Johnny Rock said:

I am having similar questions regarding signalling from my Kirkby Stephen goods yard to the main down line. I've found an old OS  map circa 1911 which shows a starter signal in the yard leading traffic out onto the down line to Carlisle.

It shows a signal near the signal box . wondering if this would have actually been there?

 

That's not an OS map - it's one of the Midland's own 2 chain/inch plans - cf Midland Railway Study Centre Item 00815-43. It wasn't Midland practice to use full-sized semaphores for lay-bye or yard to running line moves. Looking at the 1963 signalling diagram in V.R. Anderson & G.K. Fox, Stations & Structures of the Settle & Carlisle Railway (OPC, 1986) in this instance there is a ground disc shown for the move you mention - no doubt replacing a Midland ground signal; there is also one for the Settle end of the goods loop, for access to the up line. There is no signal for the crossover to the up line just in front of the signalbox; presumably because no train would depart via this crossover; it would only be used for shunting moves within station limits.

 

If you really want to know about Midland signalling, I can think of no better person to speak to than the Study Centre Coordinator, Dave Harris.

 

The Study Centre also holds a number of original drawings of civil engineering features in the vicinity of Kirkby Stephen, that have been scanned and are downloadable from the website.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Compound2632

[Johnny Rock]

Thanks for your information, I've just found a photo of the station in 1912 and the signal is actually there as it is marked of the Midland plan.  I'll have a look at the link that you have suggested. 

[Johnny Rock]

Found a second photo from the link you provided and again the signal is there near the signal box facing the down main line.  I wonder when they decided to change this? It's not in any 1960s photos.

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, Johnny Rock said:

Found a second photo from the link you provided and again the signal is there near the signal box facing the down main line.  I wonder when they decided to change this? It's not in any 1960s photos.

 

Aha now I understand the confusion. That's the down home, placed on the wrong or off side for ease of sighting round the curve - characteristic Midland practice. Remember that on the Midland (and generally, pre-Grouping) the driver stood on the right.

 

Compare this photo:

 

 

which shows the down starter off side on the same post as the up home.

 

When the signalling was renewed, the down signals were re-sited in the conventional position on the near side - left-hand drive having become the norm by then.

Edited October 2, 2021 by Compound2632

[Johnny Rock]

Yes thank you this makes alot of sense. My layout is based in the 1930/40s therefore I suspect they were changed around or before this time. I now plan to site the home down next to the down layby just before the station platform and a starter just after the station, before the over bridge. I also notice that a home up starter was positioned much further along the track past the goods shed. Presumably again for sight lines as the whole area is on a curve.

[Johnny Rock]

All fascinating stuff though. 

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Johnny Rock said:

My layout is based in the 1930/40s therefore I suspect they were changed around or before this time. 

 

The LMS standard UQ tubular post signals were, I think, only developed in the mid-1930s. I doubt the Settle-Carlisle signalling was renewed until after the War, possibly not until the 1950s. Anderson & Fox have a photo of Settle taken in 1939 showing the down home was still a Midland LQ at that date. The LMS didn't really look like what one thinks of the LMS characteristically looking like until after nationalisation! Before the War at least, what one sees in photos is the old pre-grouping company's infrastructure with just a thin veneer of modernity on the principal main lines.

 

14 minutes ago, Johnny Rock said:

I also notice that a home up starter was positioned much further along the track past the goods shed. Presumably again for sight lines as the whole area is on a curve.

 

The starting signals in both directions are a train's length in advance of the trailing points into the lay-by, so that a train could set back into the lay-by without trespassing into the next section. On a model railway, that means they are almost certainly off-stage.

[Johnny Rock]

I'm happy to compromise to give the overall effect of the period. Life is all a compromise!

Happy modelling.

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, Johnny Rock said:

I'm happy to compromise to give the overall effect of the period. Life is all a compromise!

 

Yes indeed, since few have the space to run full-length goods trains, compression can be achieved without loss of realism. Pick one's maximum goods train length - say 20 wagons - and that fixes the length of the lay-byes and the distance to the starting signals.

[Johnny Rock]

My layout area is 4.2 m x 2.7 m which is a reasonable space. My fiddle yard/ storage loops can hold 15 wagons plus loco or 6 coaches plus loco. With the station built on the shorter side I have a decent  long run for goods yard and lay by. 

[Johnny Rock]

Latest photo of scenic section towards completion.

[Grovenor]

By the way, your single slip is the wrong way around, it should make a crossover between the up and down lines and a trailing access from the yard but no facing access, I hope you can still rotate it.

[Johnny Rock]

Latest photo of scenic section towards completion.

[Johnny Rock]

Yes that was pointed out to me a few months ago. This  is a photo before the issue was rectified. 

[phil-b259]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The LMS standard UQ tubular post signals were, I think, only developed in the mid-1930s. I doubt the Settle-Carlisle signalling was renewed until after the War, possibly not until the 1950s.

 

 

Its worth noting that wood rots!

 

As such its quite possible individual signals may have been renewed on a one off basis, either as a carbon copy or to a different design plus put in a different place if it were felt better sighting could be obtained.

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Its worth noting that wood rots!

 

As such its quite possible individual signals may have been renewed on a one off basis, either as a carbon copy or to a different design plus put in a different place if it were felt better sighting could be obtained.

 

On the other hand, there are plenty of examples of ex-Midland, ex-LNWR, and ex-GWR wooden posts surviving will into BR days - even into very modern times. But of course there would have been renewals of signalling in LMS days, for many years using pre-grouping design components. There's the example of the LNWR-style signalling at locations on the ex-Midland Swansea Vale line, which had been transferred to the LMS Western Division. So perhaps I should have said that on the Settle & Carlisle section, the ex-Midland signalling was renewed with LMS standard tubular posts, probably in the early 50s, but it might have been renewed earlier as well, using Midland components.

 

One issue is bias in the photographic record. There are some very high-quality images from the early 20th century, up to the Great War, but not much in the 20s and 30s or really up until the 1960s, when the line attracted amateur photographers in quantity. 

Edited October 3, 2021 by Compound2632

[Johnny Rock]

This is all excellent background information. I've bought 4 Dapol motorised  signals which, as a compromise both aesthetically and operationally, will be sited as follows. 

1. Up home signal at the exit of the goods yard , this serves as a starter for the up platform.

2. Down home signal set before entering the down platform.

3. Down starter signal at North end of down platform before the overbridge (a la Dent )

4. Up home signal the opposite side of the North overbridge.

Having viewed many other photos, the routes from goods sidings and lay by  will use ground disc signals.