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Length of time between the Cycling Lion to later BR emblems


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Hi all,

I was just wondering how long it took for BR to replace the Cycling lion emblem to the later emblem. How long did they run side by side before the old emblem was fully gone. Just really want to know if it is ok to run engines with both emblems together.

Thanks.

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A few engines were still carrying the old emblem when withdrawn in the mid-1960s. Here’s one of the preserved Fairburn tanks which still had the old emblem when withdrawn at the beginning of October 1967:

 

Fairburn 2-6-4T 42085 at Carnforth shed 2 September 1968


(Photo taken at Carnforth shed on 2 September 1968.)

Edited by pH
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Nowadays, 'branding' is given greater importance as a part of a TOC's image, but back in steam days, locos recieved new liveries and new emblems when they were repainted, which was following major overhaul.  This in turn was done on a mileage basis, according to the class of loco.  So, a loco on main line high mileage work or intensed suburban work with two or three return trips in a working day would build up mileage more quickly that a loco allocated to a short branch line with light traffic, or a pilot turn that was not very busy.  Often, such locos would miss out altogether on liveries that lasted for some time in service.  The unicycling lion was introduced in September 1949 and was replaced by the ferret and dartboard in 1956, so a majority of BR's locos were given it, but by no means all.  Of those that did recieve it, a good number were withdrawn before they were ever given the ferret and dartboard livery. 

 

The class 01 shunting locos used on Holyhead breakwater were delivered in the the pre-1956 unlined black shunting loco livery with unicycling lions, and had not racked up sufficient mileage for an overhaul or repaint when they were withdrawn in the 1980s!

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The 'ferret' started life facing forward , like the unicycling lion. From 1959 they only faced left. Replacing the earlier liveries was not a priority, above all with a road orientated government in power, which expected the railways to show a profit, not provide a public service.

 

As an example of the low priority, one of the 97xx pannier tanks retained the pre-war GWR emblem until withdrawal (9710 IIRC).

 

Rule 1 applies in any case!  :)

 

Edited by Il Grifone
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15 hours ago, cypherman said:

Hi all,

I was just wondering how long it took for BR to replace the Cycling lion emblem to the later emblem. How long did they run side by side before the old emblem was fully gone. Just really want to know if it is ok to run engines with both emblems together.

Thanks.

Most locos were done when they went for heavy overhaul which was followed by a re-paint. some didn't get done at all, including six Jubilees that were early withdrawals, two notable locos that were involved with rail-tours, and lasted to 1966 were 42942, and 82003. This is where good research comes in handy.

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8 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

As an example of the low priority, one of the 97xx pannier tanks retained the pre-war GWR emblem until withdrawal (9710 IIRC).

Not sure about this; the loco carried the 1942-7 G W R initiials TTBOMK, not the pre-war 'shirtbutton' emblem, which lasted until 1942, half way through the war.  There are photgraphs to prove this, and another 8750 (number escapes me for now) at Worcester, but it is possible in both these cases that the poor quality of the paint available during the austerity period, which lasted until the early 50s, and, let's be honest, the inferior application of it at Swindon (Caerphilly were much better!) had resulted in later  liveries being applied but then worn off, exposing the previous livery beneath. 

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I have a feeling that there was more than one of the 9700 to 9710 batch that never got full BR livery.

 

I believe it was something to do with the repairs being done at OOC rather than Swindon and ISTR at least one was overhauled at Stratford ex GER.

 

But I think with some of them it's the fact they got such a small version of the crest it looks like the GWR Roundel.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gricerman/24043905271/

 

I'll have a look through Pannier Papers if I can find it.

 

 

Jason

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9710 was photographed in 1957,  1960 and 1961 with the shirtbutton, so probably not paint wear or over-zealous cleaning. It was noted in Caerphilly Works on 29 October 1961 and was subsequently pictured at OOC with the late crest.

IIRC 9709 may have been a late survivor with GWR initials.

Edited by TheSignalEngineer
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I can confirm the shirt button. I saw her myself*!  :). There was no sign of later paintwork, just a layer of grime - she was dirty black all over, not green**.. this would not be surprising seeing she worked through the Metropolitan tunnels. I doubt that cleaning was ever a part of their maintenance.

 

* I can't remember the number it was a long time ago - I recalled 9709, but it appears wrongly.

 

**  If repainted during the war (unlikely) , the paint could well have been black ?

 

I saw all but one of the class (missed 9702 IIRC) and remember at least a couple still carried  'G W R'.

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On 02/09/2021 at 19:43, The Johnster said:

Not sure about this; the loco carried the 1942-7 G W R initiials TTBOMK, not the pre-war 'shirtbutton' emblem, which lasted until 1942, half way through the war.  There are photgraphs to prove this, and another 8750 (number escapes me for now) at Worcester, but it is possible in both these cases that the poor quality of the paint available during the austerity period, which lasted until the early 50s, and, let's be honest, the inferior application of it at Swindon (Caerphilly were much better!) had resulted in later  liveries being applied but then worn off, exposing the previous livery beneath. 

R.C.Riley in the introduction to Great Western Album writes:

Great Western Green had a curiously elusive quality. A repainted engine standing outside the works looked resplendant in a pleasingly warm shade of green. This lasted for a week or so in traffic and then the green livery darkened and lost the warm tone altogether. The finish was undoubtedly better and longer lasting before 1914, but it was not so in 1925. The Rev. John Gibson, then completing at Swindon an apprenticeship started in the M.S.W.J. works at Cirencester, recalls that even Pendennis Castle being specially prepared for the second year of the Wembley Exhibition was not finished as well as any M.S.W.J. engine on completion of a general repair.  After grouping, in order to provide work at Cirencester, the former M.S.W.J. engines being "Great Westernised" at Swindon, Dean Goods No. 2355 was sent there for overhaul. After many problems had been overcome the job was done and the engine ready for painting. The Chargeman Painter indented for 14 gallons of green final coat, the amount considered neccessary for an engine of this size. Back came two gallons, Swindon's allowance. The painter was nearly in despair - "It will need so much thinning down the boiler will turn black as soon as it gets hot," he remarked.  It did.  But by this time the paint shop at Swindon was disused and engines were painted in a few days in the Erecting Shop. At Cirencester engines spent nearly a month in the paintshop - not very economical, pehaps, but the result was maginificent and lasted for years.

 

 

 

Edited by Andy Kirkham
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20 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

R.C.Riley in the introduction to Great Western Album writes:

Great Western Green had a curiously elusive quality. A repainted engine standing outside the works looked resplendant in a pleasingly warm shade of green. This lasted for a week or so in traffic and then the green livery darkened and lost the warm tone altogether. The finish was undoubtedly better and longer lasting before 1914, but it was not so in 1925. The Rev. John Gibson, then completing at Swindon an apprenticeship started in the M.S.W.J. works at Cirencester, recalls that even Pendennis Castle being specially prepared for the second year of the Wembley Exhibition was not finished as well as any M.S.W.J. engine on completion of a general repair.  After grouping, in order to provide work at Cirencester, the former M.S.W.J. engines being "Great Westernised" at Swindon, Dean Goods No. 2355 was sent there for overhaul. After many problems had been overcome the job was done and the engine ready for painting. The Chargeman Painter indented for 14 gallons of green final coat, the amount considered neccessary for an engine of this size. Back came two gallons, Swindon's allowance. The painter was nearly in despair - "It will need so much thinning down the boiler will turn black as soon as it gets hot," he remarked.  It did.  But by this time the paint shop at Swindon was disused and engines were painted in a few days in the Erecting Shop. At Cirencester engines spent nearly a month in the paintshop - not very economical, pehaps, but the result was maginificent and lasted for years.

 

 

 

So now I have an excuse for not being able to tell the difference between green and black GWR locos in colour photographs!

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