Is it time to stop blaming Beeching?

[jonny777]

23 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I gather that is, or perhaps at one time was, the situation in Liverpool, owing to an over-supply of taxis. Which just goes to show that you're not outlining immutable laws of transportation - the balance could be changed if there was the political will-power. For example, air travel could be very much reduced by taxing aviation fuel. 

 

And road building/improvements could be charged an extra tax for the environmental destruction they cause or help accelerate; not just directly but indirectly due to increased amounts of SO2, NO and CO pumped out by exhausts. For decades everyone (including me) has simply ignored these gases because they are invisible; but our urban children and grandchildren are suffering for our insatiable appetite for the freedom to go anywhere we choose at a time we choose. 

 

Sorry, I am drifting away from Beeching - but I doubt Marples-Ridgeway took any notice of the land they bulldozed, or the creatures living in/on it. 

[jonny777]

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Can you outline these gentlemen's contributions to the decline of British railways in the first three-quarters of the 20th century?

 

Or have they been publishing detective thrillers set in mid-century middle England?

 

It was sarcasm; but if you believe certain areas of the MSM they are responsible for all the bad things that happen. 

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, jonny777 said:

It was sarcasm; but if you believe certain areas of the MSM they are responsible for all the bad things that happen. 

 

Understood. But I shall be reading Dorothy L. Sayers in a new light. Was she in fact an NKVD agent?

 

19 minutes ago, jonny777 said:

 

And road building/improvements could be charged an extra tax for the environmental destruction they cause or help accelerate; not just directly but indirectly due to increased amounts of SO2, NO and CO pumped out by exhausts. For decades everyone (including me) has simply ignored these gases because they are invisible; but our urban children and grandchildren are suffering for our insatiable appetite for the freedom to go anywhere we choose at a time we choose. 

 

Sorry, I am drifting away from Beeching - but I doubt Marples-Ridgeway took any notice of the land they bulldozed, or the creatures living in/on it. 

 

We have seen improvements since the Marples era - Twyford Down saw to that. 

 

I'd also mention the abolition of lead in petrol - which I grew up breathing, as a child in Birmingham. But on the other hand, we had claggy DMUs at the bottom of the garden. That line was electrified many years ago now but we're stiil awaiting the return of electric delivery vehicles:

 

 

Feeding time at St Pancras Goods Station, 11 July 1917. [DY 10641, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.]

[Ron Ron Ron]

25 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

.......That line was electrified many years ago now but we're stiil awaiting the return of electric delivery vehicles:

 

 

 

 

They've already returned and are growing in number.

Electric deliver vans are being ordered in fleets of hundreds and even thousands, by the bigger operators.

Lots out on the road already, even if it's presently a small percentage of the total fleet.

 

 

.

[corneliuslundie]

I remember when the M4 opened between Cardiff and Newport (a long time ago). For a couple years the main road was almost empty. It was a pleasure to cycle along.  Within ten years it was busier than it had been before the motorway was built. That I am afraid was what was happening all over the country. Some years later we spent three hours in a coach hardly moving in north Somerset on the way to Exeter. It sounds as if now that congestion has transferred to the motorway.

I am afraid that we need to be less mobile and thus cut emissions (and things like tyre debris), but it going to be an awful job persuading people. I suspect we shall still be driving everywhere in 20 years and wondering why things are so bad.

And even more off piste, if global warming makes the British climate gets colder, as is being suggested, then it will be more difficult to grow grain crops. The big switch to cattle happened last time the climate got colder.

Anyway, as has been said, in summary, Beeching took on the job knowing that the report would carry his name, though he may well not have known how much some sections of British Railways management were intent on closing lines and manipulating the figures to make it possible. But most of those closures would have happened anyway, as a continuation of what was already happening. I am interested in the railways of Wales, and there were several lines in the South Wales valleys where passenger traffic had more than halved since the First World War. I am sure the same was true in other areas. In South Wales of course the collapse of coal mining added to this in some areas. But it also happened in other areas often because of the introduction of buses, trolley buses (though they often didn't last that long either) and trams (also now gone).

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

33 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

They've already returned and are growing in number.

Electric deliver vans are being ordered in fleets of hundreds and even thousands, by the bigger operators.

Lots out on the road already, even if it's presently a small percentage of the total fleet..

 

That's good to know; I've not knowingly seen many.

[Oldddudders]

4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That's good to know; I've not knowingly seen many.

Not the UK, but for the last 4 or so years, my La Poste deliveries have been by electric van. And I live several miles into deep country, with fields on all sides. Mind you, on at least one occasion, Francine arrive in a rented diesel van - she'd forgotten to plug hers in at the depot overnight! 

[MyRule1]

2 hours ago, Reorte said:

A couple of points - is this about blaming Beeching personally, or the report in general?

I am responding as the OP.

 

My original question was not about blame but rather the way that the single 8 letter word Beeching has become shorthand for the loss of rail infrastructure.

 

As many of those posting in this thread have pointed out the situation is complex.

 

However the cabinet minute from the meeting that discussed the report adds some context:

 

"The eventual elimination of the Board’s annual deficit would be of considerable benefit to the Exchequer. But the emphasis should be laid not so much on the Government’s concern to make the railways pay as on the fact that losses were Incurred at present because the system was not adapted to modern needs. Moreover, an economic railway system would facilitate a co-ordinated transport policy, which would enable adequate services to be provided on the roads us well us on the railway's."

 

The Nation Archives: CAB 128/37/16

 

Anyway keep the discussion going even it is drifting OT at times

[Compound2632]

54 minutes ago, MyRule1 said:

Moreover, an economic railway system would facilitate a co-ordinated transport policy, which would enable adequate services to be provided on the roads us well us on the railways.

 

A noble sentiment...

[kevinlms]

2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

A noble sentiment...

One that comes straight from 'Yes, Minister'!

 

It is so easy to say, actually making the railways economic is something else.

Do roads have to be economic?

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

I remember when the M4 opened between Cardiff and Newport (a long time ago). For a couple years the main road was almost empty. It was a pleasure to cycle along.  Within ten years it was busier than it had been before the motorway was built. That I am afraid was what was happening all over the country. Some years later we spent three hours in a coach hardly moving in north Somerset on the way to Exeter. It sounds as if now that congestion has transferred to the motorway.

 

Which was probably inevitable - net result still loads of congestion, and with a lot more often fairly obnoxious infrastructure and development. Hooray for progress. But it's not just peoples' habits we're talking about that are driving it, the whys go a bit deeper than that. Business likes centralisation and speed for one thing. And perhaps it's habit, but why did people end up driving to supermarkets instead of their local butcher and greengrocer? Cost and wider range. If you can drive a bit it suddenly becomes viable to create centralise facilities and public amenities, which makes some possible that would not otherwise be. More people doesn't help things either.

 

The demand for centralisation and speed is quite possibly insatiable (within reason of course, a motorway to a hamlet of half a dozen houses won't ever fill up, although as this thread has reminded us that didn't stop people trying to build railways to them!)

[Bernard Lamb]

I have posted this before but some folk might not have seen it and indeed some people might mot be aware that it exists. The first and last page of the report in the Doctor's own handwriting. You can read the whole thing at TNA Kew. I found it a fascinating document both in the manner in which it is presented and the contents. The story of how it survived and was retrieved from a cupboard is also an interesting tale. You will note that while the published report contains a list of suggested closures the original hand written document ends with just a few lines across the page. Who exactly was responsible for filling in the details? Beeching or various people working on his findings?

Bernard

 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2021 by Bernard Lamb

[rodent279]

I suspect that while there were without doubt lines that closed that shouldn't have, there were a lot (an awful lot) that shouldn't have been built, or should have closed in the first couple of decades of the C20th.

 

Top ten lines that closed, but shouldn't have?

And top ten that survived, but perhaps shouldn't have?

[Fat Controller]

25 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I have posted this before but some folk might not have seen it and indeed some people might mot be aware that it exists. The first and last page of the report in the Doctor's own handwriting. You can read the whole thing at TNA Kew. I found it a fascinating document both in the manner in which it is presented and the contents. The story of how it survived and was retrieved from a cupboard is also an interesting tale. You will note that while the published report contains a list of suggested closures the original hand written document ends with just a few lines across the page. Who exactly was responsible for filling in the details? Beeching or various people working on his findings?

Bernard

 

 

 

Wasn't Serpell, who was to present a report during the late 1970s/ early 1980s, an important member of Beeching's team? 

[AndrueC]

I remember a couple of years ago when HS2 was first being mooted. For a while it was going to run just north of Brackley on the old viaduct line. Actually would have been quite impressive as it meant resurrecting Brackley Viaduct (the longest on the Great Central Line I believe) which would have gone over the bridge to Turweston(*) at the point where it went over the A43 so a 'bridge over a bridge over a road'. They tried to fob us off by claiming they'd rebuild one of the old stations and that passenger trains would stop 'occasionally'.

 

Of course no-one believed that for a minute but someone dug out an old leaflet from the late 19th century which was a response to the planning of Farthinghoe station (the other line linking Brackley to Banbury). The leaflet made pretty much the same complaints about how the station was not convenient for the locals, that it was highly unlikely any passenger trains would actually stop there and that the whole thing was a sop to try and curry favour and the case for the line was weak.

 

So it seems like even in the glorious Victorian days there were objections to railway lines being built. And the line was indeed never a great success and closed in 1961.

 

(*)They have now changed the plans so that they blight Turweston and leave Brackley alone. I guess they'd rather piss off a few hundred people rather than a few thousand.

Edited September 6, 2021 by AndrueC

[melmerby]

5 hours ago, Reorte said:

A couple of points - is this about blaming Beeching personally, or the report in general? Well, someone's name has to get associated with anything, and if they're happy to take credit for the results they need to take the criticism too. If you're not prepared to do that don't take the job at the top.

 

 

If Dr Beeching had been given a free hand to do what he thought and not just do as Marples wanted, I wonder what form would the report have taken.

The report is the report Ernie Marples wanted to justify his road building plans, but he needed someone to take the flack and poor Dr B was that person.

Definitely a "Not me Guv!"

[melmerby]

On 05/09/2021 at 14:42, GoingUnderground said:

I did say "everywhere". I've known for 30 years that some folks take taxis to the supermarkets, and the poorer the area the more likely that shoppers would use taxis. And has been pointed out older folks may no longer drive, or be able to afford a car. But many of them will use the free bus passes for certain journeys where that is at least as convenient as a taxi as it will certainly be cheaper.

 

 

In some local authority areas where there isn't a bus service they actually give taxi tokens to people who qualify for a pass.

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

I remember when the M4 opened between Cardiff and Newport (a long time ago). For a couple years the main road was almost empty. It was a pleasure to cycle along.  Within ten years it was busier than it had been before the motorway was built. That I am afraid was what was happening all over the country. Some years later we spent three hours in a coach hardly moving in north Somerset on the way to Exeter. It sounds as if now that congestion has transferred to the motorway.

 

I'll just drop this here: "Exeter By-Pass"

People used to get out their folding chairs they were taking on holiday to points west and sit at the side of the road waiting for movement.

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

On 05/09/2021 at 12:27, Compound2632 said:

 

I gather that is, or perhaps at one time was, the situation in Liverpool, owing to an over-supply of taxis. Which just goes to show that you're not outlining immutable laws of transportation - the balance could be changed if there was the political will-power. For example, air travel could be very much reduced by taxing aviation fuel. 

 

Far from an over supply of taxis. Can we have more please? Proper ones rather than dodgy UBERs

 

If you've ever got a bus in Liverpool you would know why everyone uses cabs. Service stops early, starts too late, doesn't run at night, very poor Sunday service, too expensive, unreliable, too slow (often awful whiney electric things), I could go on.

 

Trains are just as bad as most of them don't go to anywhere people need to go to for work, school or home as those places weren't built in the 1830s and most newer houses and workplaces are out of town. However, nearly everything is still in the city centre, particularly peoples social lives.

 

So people wanting to go the pub. Wait half an hour for a bus that might not turn up. Pay £2.50 each which is the minimum fare. Or jump in a cab that turns up quickly and gets you to where you want to be. 

 

 

Jason

[Joseph_Pestell]

16 minutes ago, melmerby said:

I'll just drop this here: "Exeter By-Pass"

People used to get out their folding chairs they were taking on holiday to points west and sit at the side of the road waiting for movement.

 

 

 

Exeter Bypass was indeed infamous in the 1950s and 1960s. So they closed many of the railways and spent fortune on a new Bypass (M5) and rebuilding the A30.

 

By way of a curiosity, there is actually an EP (45) song about it. My father played backing instrument on it.

[Joseph_Pestell]

21 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Far from an over supply of taxis.

 

The supply of taxis is regulated by the "free market". It must therefore be perfect. 

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

The supply of taxis is regulated by the "free market". It must therefore be perfect. 

 

Well no, it's regulated by the local authority as the licensing body. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

Just now, Compound2632 said:

 

Well no, it's regulated by the local authority as the licensing body. 

 

Yes, I know that. But they don't (or should not) regulate the number of taxis, just check that they and the driver are fit and proper.

[Pete the Elaner]

36 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

If you've ever got a bus in Liverpool you would know why everyone uses cabs. Service stops early, starts too late, doesn't run at night, very poor Sunday service, too expensive, unreliable, too slow (often awful whiney electric things), I could go on.

 

Trains are just as bad as most of them don't go to anywhere people need to go to for work, school or home as those places weren't built in the 1830s and most newer houses and workplaces are out of town. However, nearly everything is still in the city centre, particularly peoples social lives.

 

 

You make a good point here. Railways were built to move goods & people about from where they were in the 1830s-1890s. Some towns & villages have grown because they have a good rail service. Others have not. The railways did not really move on with the country in all areas. Some lines served locations where they got little use, so is it any wonder the services & lines were withdrawn from these?

The railway used to make more money from freight than passengers. As this was moved to the road, the railway's role in society needed to change in order to survive.

 

Long distance passenger services survived through their speed.

Commuter services survived because they took their passengers directly where they needed to be with the minimum of fuss.

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Commuter services survived because they took their passengers directly where they needed to be with the minimum of fuss.

 

Rather, I think, because they are the most efficient means of getting people in and out of the cities from the suburbs. 

 

I'm not sure what level you have in mind for a minimum of fuss...