What if 7ft gauge had become the standard?

[StubbyJunior]

Hi all, son of Stubby47 here. Just thought I would drop in to add some context behind the initial prompt of this thread. 

Now I cannot claim to be a huge model rail enthusiast, I've never had the creative expertise or technical knowhow to even know where to begin; instead finding a rather niche interest in worldbuilding, map making, and just generally being a nerd for most things historical. And it was with one of my latest sessions of procrastination that I learned about the mythical land of Lyonesse which supposedly lies of the coast of Cornwall between Lands End and the Isles of Scilly. 

 

I decided that I wanted to create a map of such a place, and taking inspiration from another map online, have been creating this (I've hit upload but I've no idea where that picture is going to appear).

My main line of questioning to father about this was as follows: Had the island followed in the footsteps of the West Cornwall Railway and had been 7ft wide (Perhaps also designed by Brunel or the like), following the WCR being bought out by the Great Western Railway, would it have become standard gauge, and if not, what the rolling stock look like if it still existed today.

 

To my understanding, the line between Penzance and Truro was broad gauge whilst Truro to Plymouth was Standard, meaning that passengers would have to change trains to continue their journey. Given that anyone traveling from my town of Carncreag or Gwermouth would have had to exchange at Kerlew regardless of the gauge, does this mean that the gauge would have remained untouched despite the GWR potentially taking over.

I know there are many factors to play here; would there have even been a standard railway on the island in the first place, would it all have been narrow gauge or axed by Beeching in the 60s; all that and more, but I'd be curious to hear anyones thoughts on the subject. 

Finally, please understand that I am not an expert on railways, and so anything I have said here might be incredibly wrong or narrowminded, so be gentle with me.

Thank you!
 

[melmerby]

West Cornwall was standard when it opened in 1852 but went mixed in 1866

Cornwall Railway was broad gauge when opened and went standard in 1892 (no mixed gauge period)

 

An interesting one in the South West was the line from Cowley Bridge Jn to Barnstable & Bideford. It was built broad gauge but was purchased by the LSWR.

[Gareth-Ingram]

2 hours ago, StubbyJunior said:

Hi all, son of Stubby47 here. Just thought I would drop in to add some context behind the initial prompt of this thread. 

Now I cannot claim to be a huge model rail enthusiast, I've never had the creative expertise or technical knowhow to even know where to begin; instead finding a rather niche interest in worldbuilding, map making, and just generally being a nerd for most things historical. And it was with one of my latest sessions of procrastination that I learned about the mythical land of Lyonesse which supposedly lies of the coast of Cornwall between Lands End and the Isles of Scilly. 

 

I decided that I wanted to create a map of such a place, and taking inspiration from another map online, have been creating this (I've hit upload but I've no idea where that picture is going to appear).

My main line of questioning to father about this was as follows: Had the island followed in the footsteps of the West Cornwall Railway and had been 7ft wide (Perhaps also designed by Brunel or the like), following the WCR being bought out by the Great Western Railway, would it have become standard gauge, and if not, what the rolling stock look like if it still existed today.

 

To my understanding, the line between Penzance and Truro was broad gauge whilst Truro to Plymouth was Standard, meaning that passengers would have to change trains to continue their journey. Given that anyone traveling from my town of Carncreag or Gwermouth would have had to exchange at Kerlew regardless of the gauge, does this mean that the gauge would have remained untouched despite the GWR potentially taking over.

I know there are many factors to play here; would there have even been a standard railway on the island in the first place, would it all have been narrow gauge or axed by Beeching in the 60s; all that and more, but I'd be curious to hear anyones thoughts on the subject. 

Finally, please understand that I am not an expert on railways, and so anything I have said here might be incredibly wrong or narrowminded, so be gentle with me.

Thank you!
 

Is it you that I need to contact to file a claim for a Gale on that island? :-)

[StubbyJunior]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

West Cornwall was standard when it opened in 1852 but went mixed in 1866

Cornwall Railway was broad gauge when opened and went standard in 1892 (no mixed gauge period)

 

An interesting one in the South West was the line from Cowley Bridge Jn to Barnstable & Bideford. It was built broad gauge but was purchased by the LSWR.

Ah, seems as if I've managed to fundamentally misunderstand Wikipedia. You'd have thought that back in the day they would've had the forethought to name their railways much more originally, so that silly people in the future like myself could differentiate them easier, but there we go. 

 

1 hour ago, Gareth-Ingram said:

Is it you that I need to contact to file a claim for a Gale on that island? :-)

At the moment I'm about 50/50 on whether you're asking to buy a tract of land used for mining or a strong wind of 34-47 knots.

[Nearholmer]

One thing to consider is that island railways are a bit like those finches studied by Darwin: they evolve to fill very specific niches created by the circumstances of the island. Think of IoM, IoW, Frisian Islands, Majorca, the list is endless, and the railways in such islands tended to be quite unlike their mainland neighbours, often being narrower in gauge, because islands tend to have restricted economies and no great distances across which to gallop.

 

You might want to decide whether there is going to be a train ferry, and if so to where. That dictates, or is dictated by, having the same gauge. Or, traditional cargo transhipment might have continued until the era of containerisation (which started surprisingly early in some places).

 

You can sort of tell, probably, that I'm itching for the Lyonesse Railway to be roughly 3ft gauge, rather than roughly 7ft; it just feels right, even if it does rather bngger-up the premise of this thread. Sorry!

 

PS: A chap called Rev. Wilbert Awdry wrote some very good books about an island railway, or rather several railways on an island. You might want to use them as background reading.

 

 

Edited September 8, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Stubby47]

27 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

PS: A chap called Rev. Wilbert Awdry wrote some very good books about an island railway, or rather several railways on an island. You might want to use them as background reading.

 

No. 1 Son is a serious aficionado of the trains of Sodor, so StubbyJnr has grown up with the books and toys all over the house.

 

I think the concept of a 7ft gauge, on a small island and however implausible, is worth the effort in research and expanded thinking, that will form part of the overall fictional history and determines the future of the project.

 

Yes, narrow gauge is much more likely, but as the Isle of Wight uses the same gauge as the local mainland, so why shouldn't Lyonesse?

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

You can sort of tell, probably, that I'm itching for the Lyonesse Railway to be roughly 3ft gauge, rather than roughly 7ft; it just feels right, even if it does rather bngger-up the premise of this thread. Sorry!

 

My money would be on 3’ 6” (cf Tasmania and Jersey, but also because I like it). Though of course Jersey also had a standard gauge line.

 

If it was 7ft gauge it could have ended up running modified versions of standard gauge light railway/industrial locos, a bit like the Azores and Holyhead breakwater railways, so I can see it plausibly extending beyond 1892. However, I’m not sure it would have remained 7ft gauge until today, if we’re assuming that the rest of the network did become standard gauge as it has in reality. Holyhead breakwater, despite still being isolated, was regauged in 1913, the important point being the ability to use stock brought from elsewhere. Obviously the IoW Island Line has a restricted loading gauge, which they can’t do much about, but I suspect that if it had been built to a different gauge it would have been regauged by now. On the map there looks to be a fairly short sea crossing so unless the rail network was for some reason centred on the opposite side of the island I have to wonder whether there would be a bridge, like on Anglesey (eventually even if not initially). Despite which I still really like the idea as a concept, and you can usually contrive your way out of these issues. For instance the modern railway on the IoW is passenger-only (since it’s too short to be worth putting freight freight back on rail after crossing the Solent), but perhaps there could be some sort of industry on your island that uses the railway while on the island and then primarily exports by long-distance ship.

 

 

[StubbyJunior]

At its longest, a line from Carncreag to Kerlew would be about 28 miles, which is pretty much the distance between Penzance and Truro for context; which would be what 35-40 minutes with a modern service. The middle of the island is relatively flat in comparison to the northern and western areas, which might allow a larger than 3ft gauge, but then again if it had started that size it might have remained so throughout.

 

At the moment I'm thinking an industry very mining orientated; tin, copper, and arsenic at a stretch. (Thinking Penwith area for inspiration) Plus the warmer climate and fertile lands lead to an increased crop yield earlier than the rest of Cornwall (The islands location itself creating a meteorological problem for western Cornwall leading to a slightly colder climate). And fish of course, though I'm aware that fresh produce has a time limit and the potential train -> boat -> train transportation would not help that shelf life.

 

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

You might want to decide whether there is going to be a train ferry, and if so to where. That dictates, or is dictated by, having the same gauge. Or, traditional cargo transhipment might have continued until the era of containerisation (which started surprisingly early in some places).

This would be interesting, though maybe warranting a more substantial harbour at Penzance to accommodate such a ship. An early pioneer of some form of containerisation does sound good.

 

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

You can sort of tell, probably, that I'm itching for the Lyonesse Railway to be roughly 3ft gauge, rather than roughly 7ft; it just feels right, even if it does rather bngger-up the premise of this thread. Sorry!

No need to apologise, the premise was on rocky foundations to begin with :D, but the conversations sprouted here have been interesting to read regardless! 

 

29 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Holyhead breakwater, despite still being isolated, was regauged in 1913, the important point being the ability to use stock brought from elsewhere

That is an important point, I doubt there would be sufficient locomotive builder on the island that could compare to the output or efficiency of a 'mainland' one.

 

30 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

On the map there looks to be a fairly short sea crossing so unless the rail network was for some reason centred on the opposite side of the island I have to wonder whether there would be a bridge, like on Anglesey (eventually even if not initially).

So from vague estimates on google maps, the gap would be just shy of a kilometre, which wouldn't be a terrible distance, the only problem being the 70ft high cliffs that surround the Lands End area and would probably be mirrored on the island side. Maybe that's a feasible gap for construction (I'm no bridge builder), but perhaps it would be on the sketchier side of things

[009 micro modeller]

11 hours ago, StubbyJunior said:

So from vague estimates on google maps, the gap would be just shy of a kilometre, which wouldn't be a terrible distance, the only problem being the 70ft high cliffs that surround the Lands End area and would probably be mirrored on the island side. Maybe that's a feasible gap for construction (I'm no bridge builder), but perhaps it would be on the sketchier side of things

 

If it’s a kilometre then maybe not. Possibly a tunnel? But then again, perhaps there would be no fixed link.

 

11 hours ago, StubbyJunior said:

That is an important point, I doubt there would be sufficient locomotive builder on the island that could compare to the output or efficiency of a 'mainland' one.

 

I was assuming that it would have used stock brought from mainland manufacturers even while broad gauge (as Holyhead did). But when they needed to replace the original locos it was presumably easier to regauge and make use of standard designs that were more readily available. Then later the class 01s were able to be brought in second hand (sort of) from elsewhere.

[Nearholmer]

The Menai Strait is a good comparator. Building a bridge over that was heroic stuff in the mid C19th, and at the point where the bridge is I think the waterway may be as narrow as c300m - the bridge is longer, but partially crossing land.

 

Your strait would be terrible for navigation. The sea in that area is turbulent now, because of the way the currents from the west are dividing; add an island and a narrow strait and you will get tidal differences, leading to water pouring one way or the other at different times of day -shipwrecks galore!

 

A further scenario to consider: the island railway is 7ft gauge, and when the mainland gets converted to our now SG, it doesn’t, it stays the way it is, and rather than modernising swiftly, it can’t afford to, and gets suck in a time-warp, forever dragging along with ancient rolling stock and barely enough functioning locomotives to get by.
 

So, rather than a super-modern BG system, we are now looking at a fascinating anachronism. There are a few diesel locos, but even they are now old, maybe built just before or after WW2 as adaptations of SG designs, but really the railway is as much museum-piece as functioning transport system.

 

The diesels, BTW, I envisage as typical 350hp Armstrong Whitworth / English Electric 0-6-0, the early single-reduction gearing version, but fitted with the wheels outside, rather than inside, the frames (minimal adaptation from the standard design), with wide walkways, with handrails, down each side of the bonnet, a bit like Russian locos. 350hp isn’t a great power, so maybe one or two have been re-engined to 500hp or 600hp, maybe even 1000hp over the years.

 

There might be a few “posh” steel coaches, built by a local small boatyard and agricultural machinery works in the 1950s. The design incorporates all sorts of easy to obtain parts, like standard bus windows, boat port-holes, that sort of thing, so they look unlike anything seen elsewhere.

 

Island railways are very resourceful, and come up with all kinds of cheap and pragmatic solutions.

[Stubby47]

45 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

The Menai Strait is a good comparator. Building a bridge over that was heroic stuff in the mid C19th, and at the point where the bridge is I think the waterway may be as narrow as c300m - the bridge is longer, but partially crossing land.

 

Having married a lass from Menai Bridge, and got married in St Mary's Church (not the one on Church Island, unfortunately not in use at the time), and having dinghy sailed on the Straits themselves, I fully understand and appreciate your analogy.

 

And yes, Jnr & I have discussed the probable tidal forces between Land's End and Lyonesse, and the potential to contribute to the already large number of wrecks in the area. 

 

50 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

A further scenario to consider: the island railway is 7ft gauge, and when the mainland gets converted to our now SG, it doesn’t, it stays the way it is, and rather than modernising swiftly, it can’t afford to, and gets suck in a time-warp, forever dragging along with ancient rolling stock and barely enough functioning locomotives to get by.

 

That is assuming the mainland actually uses the narrower gauge track, rather than the wholesale adoption of 7ft.

 

52 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

The diesels, BTW, I envisage as typical 350hp Armstrong Whitworth / English Electric 0-6-0, the early single-reduction gearing version, but fitted with the wheels outside, rather than inside, the frames (minimal adaptation from the standard design), with wide walkways, with handrails, down each side of the bonnet, a bit like Russian locos. 350hp isn’t a great power, so maybe one or two have been re-engined to 500hp or 600hp, maybe even 1000hp over the years.

 

There might be a few “posh” steel coaches, built by a local small boatyard and agricultural machinery works in the 1950s. The design incorporates all sorts of easy to obtain parts, like standard bus windows, boat port-holes, that sort of thing, so they look unlike anything seen elsewhere.

 

Island railways are very resourceful, and come up with all kinds of cheap and pragmatic solutions.

 

Again, an excellent hypothesis given a standard gauge on the mainland.

 

Assuming there is at least one major industry (mining) on the island, then the port facilities would be able to handle transfer of rolling stock by crane (4472 seemed to manage wherever she went), so new or s/h stock could be brought over by ship.  A bridge of the required length, or a tunnel, would be a much later construction, and given the difficulties in plotting a line west of Penzance anyway might never have happened.  

 

As you also suggested, Sodor has similar rail requirements, with a standard gauge (4ft 8.5") and narrow gauge feeder lines, there is every reason to suggest the same combination would be present on Lyonesse.

 

Your adaptation of SG stock to a wider gauge could also be utilised, except the practicalities of making wider loco firebox/boilers would not be necessary as the extra power would not be needed. So the idea of wider footplates holds much merit.

 

 

Thanks again to all for your input - as you can tell it's all completely hypothetical, but that doesn't prevent a practical 'what-if' consideration.

[StubbyJunior]

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

A further scenario to consider: the island railway is 7ft gauge, and when the mainland gets converted to our now SG, it doesn’t, it stays the way it is, and rather than modernising swiftly, it can’t afford to, and gets suck in a time-warp, forever dragging along with ancient rolling stock and barely enough functioning locomotives to get by.
 

So, rather than a super-modern BG system, we are now looking at a fascinating anachronism. There are a few diesel locos, but even they are now old, maybe built just before or after WW2 as adaptations of SG designs, but really the railway is as much museum-piece as functioning transport system.

 

The diesels, BTW, I envisage as typical 350hp Armstrong Whitworth / English Electric 0-6-0, the early single-reduction gearing version, but fitted with the wheels outside, rather than inside, the frames (minimal adaptation from the standard design), with wide walkways, with handrails, down each side of the bonnet, a bit like Russian locos. 350hp isn’t a great power, so maybe one or two have been re-engined to 500hp or 600hp, maybe even 1000hp over the years.

 

There might be a few “posh” steel coaches, built by a local small boatyard and agricultural machinery works in the 1950s. The design incorporates all sorts of easy to obtain parts, like standard bus windows, boat port-holes, that sort of thing, so they look unlike anything seen elsewhere.

 

I love this! Its probably the closest to what I was imagining for the railway. An antiquated relic running more because of a community necessity than a business standpoint; loving the thought of it running off of local demand and donations much more like a heritage railway than a standard line.

 

And I like the idea of parts just being brought from anywhere; just throw it at the wall and see what works. Very cool ideas!

 

[Gareth-Ingram]

Another modelling implication is no need for chairs, DIY track can be made with solder-to-pcb which is a nice option. Not dealing with hundreds of little chairs has it’s own benefits.

[Nearholmer]

Virtually nothing is off-limits for island railways.

 

A group of enthusiasts is currently recreating this contraption from the Island of Sylt, having got an old lorry from a scrapyard to use as the basis.

[kevinlms]

On 08/09/2021 at 20:34, Nearholmer said:

The GWR boiled its paperwork? I knew they had some funny habits, but Why did they do that?

Plenty of businesses, large and small 'cook the books'!

[kevinlms]

On 08/09/2021 at 23:07, 009 micro modeller said:

 

What was the reason in Australia? Was it just that they all chose their own and didn’t think they’d ever need to be linked?

No, not at all. They wanted to be standard, but with state governments changing their minds, it became impossible to coordinate. Victoria actually built their line first.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_gauge_in_Australia#Origins_of_the_gauge_muddle

 

In 1857, the NSW railway engineer John Whitton suggested that the short length of railway then operating in New South Wales be altered from 4 ft 8+1⁄2 in (1,435 mm) gauge to 5 ft 3 in (1,600 mm) to conform with Victoria but, despite being supported by the NSW Railway Administration, he was ignored. At that time, there were only 23 miles (37 km) of track, four engines and assorted cars and wagons on the railway.

 

So it could have been 'standardised' to 5ft 3in, for a very modest sum, but never happened.

Edited September 10, 2021 by kevinlms
Typo

[MarkSG]

22 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

There might be a few “posh” steel coaches, built by a local small boatyard and agricultural machinery works in the 1950s. The design incorporates all sorts of easy to obtain parts, like standard bus windows, boat port-holes, that sort of thing, so they look unlike anything seen elsewhere.

 

Island railways are very resourceful, and come up with all kinds of cheap and pragmatic solutions.

 

So distinctive, it would even have a genre named after it.

 

"Islandpunk".

[Nearholmer]

If you doubt the potential for eccentricity among island railways, have a good look at the motive power on this one 

 

[Pacific231G]

On 09/09/2021 at 12:43, Nearholmer said:

The Menai Strait is a good comparator. Building a bridge over that was heroic stuff in the mid C19th, and at the point where the bridge is I think the waterway may be as narrow as c300m - the bridge is longer, but partially crossing land.

 

 

 

Island railways are very resourceful, and come up with all kinds of cheap and pragmatic solutions.

Another possible comparator are the islands of Ré and Oleron off the Atlantic coast of France. In both cases a metre gauge railway- mostly roadside steam tramway -was built that ran the length of them. Both islands are long and thin with Oleron about 40km long and Ré about 30km. Both lines were part of the metre gauge CF du Charentes that had a network of similar lines in the Départements of Charente and Charente Maritime so were fairly conventional so far as such railways went.  Both Islands had a thriving seafood industry along with general agriculture and salt  and later developed as major tourist destinations- now their main industry. Ré is fairly close to La Rochelle and its port but, In the case of Oleron, the mainland SG branch to Chapus  that served the island had summer through expresses from Paris  There was never a direct rail connection to either of them. Both islands have since been connected to the mainland by longish viaducts but their railways succumbed to road competition in the 1930s. Since 1963 Oleron has been home to the 60cm Tramway Touristique de Saint-Trojan  a 6km long line devdeloped by a local enthusiast that connects St. Trojan with several beaches that are difficult to access by car. 

 

All three of the largest Channel Islands had SG railways (Jersey also had NG)  though the railway on Alderney was  oriignally an admialty breakwater railway . 

Presumably, the IofW railways were SG because narrow gauge hadn't really been developed by the time they were built but I'm curious about the IofM railways. Were they built to 3ft gauge because that had been adopted as a secondary gauge for Ireland and were they originally built to serve the mines or were they always common carriers? 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Pacific231G
punctuation and mention of the TT de StJ

[Stubby47]

Just now, Pacific231G said:

but I'm curious about the IofM railways. Were they built to 3ft gauge because that had been adopted as a secondary gauge for Ireland and were they originally built to serve the mines or were they always common carriers? 

 

Paging @New Haven Neil

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

I'm curious about the IofM railways. Were they built to 3ft gauge because that had been adopted as a secondary gauge for Ireland

 

As far as I can make out, the use of 3 ft gauge on the Isle of Man (IoMR opened 1873) predates its adoption as a secondary standard for Ireland by a few years.

[Pacific231G]

44 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

As far as I can make out, the use of 3 ft gauge on the Isle of Man (IoMR opened 1873) predates its adoption as a secondary standard for Ireland by a few years.

Suggesting it was perhaps the prototype for Ireland where three foot gauge railway  were encouraged  (as with metre gauge in France, India  and elsewhere) to try to open up poor rural regions. Though mineral traffic off the Foxdale was for a while quite important for the Manx Northern, both it and the  IofM Railway were built as a common carriers.  

 

It's interesting that while NG tramways had long been used in mines etc. it was in 1865-1866 that the Ffestiniog and Tallylyn became the first properly NG railways (difficult to define but perhaps under 4ft would be a useful rule of thumb)  authorised to carry passengers. In 1870-1871 the first of many common carrier three foot gauge railways opened in N. America  and,  in 1875, Paul Decauville started supplying his "portable railway" system - (originally 40cm ~16" but soon 50 and 60 cm)  for agriculture and industry. It seems that almost everywhere around that time the narrow gauge, outside of the extractive industries , became an idea whose time had come. 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Pacific231G

[Nearholmer]

I'm getting rusty on NG history, but IIRC the IoMR was itself inspired by examples in Norway, which is where it picked-up the Beyer Peacock 2-4-0T as being ideal for lightly-laid lines from, and likewise the "Norwegian Chopper" coupling, so actually everybody else was copying Norway, at second remove.

 

Google "Carl Pihl", he was th egenius behind it all.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I'm getting rusty on NG history, but IIRC the IoMR was itself inspired by examples in Norway, which is where it picked-up the Beyer Peacock 2-4-0T as being ideal for lightly-laid lines from, and likewise the "Norwegian Chopper" coupling, so actually everybody else was copying Norway, at second remove.

 

I can't find the website that listed Beyer, Peacock locomotives in various ways but fortunately I'd downloaded the list by wheel arrangement. 2-4-0Ts were built for the Norwegian Government in small quantities from 1866 but these were to 3'6" gauge - also supplied to Dutch East India from 1870 and a couple to Seligmann & Haarbleecher, Bolivar Rly, Colombia in 1872 and 1874. The IoMR engines seem to have been the first to 3'0" gauge, in 1873-5, followed by a couple for the Ballymena & Larne, in 1877/8.

[Nearholmer]

Yes, Pihl liked 3ft 6in, but thereafter opinion divided, some preferring 3ft, and most continentals (but not Majorca) metre gauge, but the logic behind all the early ones, and a lot of the details, came from Pihl’s work. If you look at opening day photos of the IoM, even some of the buildings look Scandinavian. At this stage, 3ft 6in was still a ‘very light railway’ gauge, and hadn’t been pushed to become what it became later.

 

Aus and NZ early railways were very similar indeed to the Norwegian model.

 

Again IIRC, the gauge question is discussed by Fairlie in ‘The Battle of the Gauges Renewed’ (pub 1872), with all the usual calculations of loaded and unloaded weights of wagons, cost of formation for various gauges and axle-weights, and he gives indicators of best achievable costs for lines of various lengths and traffic expectations.

 

There is a Majorcan 3ft gauge train somewhere under all that regalia.

 

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Nearholmer