Lyneworth Phase 2

[Newbie2020]

@Harlequin@Chimer@RobinofLoxley@Smardale@DavidB-AU

Well that's nearly a whole Sunday used up!

 

The latest plan (Version 2.4)

So the Branch Line returns but set at the back now, still slowly rising to go over the tunnels in the bottom left then on to Millhampton Station This is at about 120mm above base level. this then drops and goes around back to Lyneworth.

 

Top right is The Brewery and sidings and down the rigtht side will give space for scenic work including Lyneworth Archery Club!

 

Main up and down lines go around from Lyneworth and at the bottom are the MPD/TMD and refuelling station, with diesel and coal and water, which also has access to the storage sidings for the carriages.

 

All thoughts and comments welcome!!

 

Clive

 

 

Edited September 12, 2021 by Newbie2020

[Newbie2020]

Already thought of a possible problem with this. Locos picking up carriages from the storage sidings would always be facing the same direction? (one of the advantages of running it in TrainPlayer!!) How could I arrange this some some would be forward facing on the up and some forward facing on the down?

 

Clive

[Zomboid]

That's not such a problem, you just need to provide facilities at the station to allow an ECS move from the sidings to reverse and run the other direction.

 

The same applies for ECS moves from the station to the sidings.

[Newbie2020]

46 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

That's not such a problem, you just need to provide facilities at the station to allow an ECS move from the sidings to reverse and run the other direction.

 

The same applies for ECS moves from the station to the sidings.

Sort of like a long headshunt???

[Chimer]

For instance, you can use a pilot to take a rake of empty coaches from the carriage sidings via the right-hand side of the layout to Lyneworth (platform 3, counting from the top).  Then the train loco runs light engine from the depot tender first (assuming a steam loco), connects to the right-hand end of the rake, and takes it away over the crossover to the outside (clockwise) main line.  Bit trickier returning empty stock to the sidings, as you don't want a loco trapped against the carriage siding buffers, the easy way would be via the left-hand side of the layout but you might think that was cheating.

 

Any big tender engines are pretty much condemned to run only clockwise or only anti-clockwise unless you add a turntable (obviously, not an issue if you're diesel/electric only).

 

Freight ops are pretty minimal, you'll just have a freight sitting in the non-platform loop at Lyneworth, coming out occasionally to do a few laps before a bit of shunting to vary the makeup of the train before the next turn.  The shunting would be more interesting with more sidings and specific places (e.g. coal staithes, goods shed) where you had to put specific types of wagons when not in the train.

 

I thought Millhampton was more interesting as a terminus (though I'd want more than the single platform), but obviously missed you changing your mind about that!

[Newbie2020]

31 minutes ago, Chimer said:

For instance, you can use a pilot to take a rake of empty coaches from the carriage sidings via the right-hand side of the layout to Lyneworth (platform 3, counting from the top).  Then the train loco runs light engine from the depot tender first (assuming a steam loco), connects to the right-hand end of the rake, and takes it away over the crossover to the outside (clockwise) main line.  Bit trickier returning empty stock to the sidings, as you don't want a loco trapped against the carriage siding buffers, the easy way would be via the left-hand side of the layout but you might think that was cheating.

 

Any big tender engines are pretty much condemned to run only clockwise or only anti-clockwise unless you add a turntable (obviously, not an issue if you're diesel/electric only).

 

Freight ops are pretty minimal, you'll just have a freight sitting in the non-platform loop at Lyneworth, coming out occasionally to do a few laps before a bit of shunting to vary the makeup of the train before the next turn.  The shunting would be more interesting with more sidings and specific places (e.g. coal staithes, goods shed) where you had to put specific types of wagons when not in the train.

 

I thought Millhampton was more interesting as a terminus (though I'd want more than the single platform), but obviously missed you changing your mind about that!

Ahh that makes sense!

 

I did consider, am considering a turntable - could possibly go in between the ECS sidings and the TMD?

 

I keep looking at Millhampton and can't decide lol, sometimes I like the idea of a through station to open up to more varied traffic , but I agree a terminus with commuter shuttle is what I really liked the idea of!

 

[ITG]

Something mentioned earlier in this thread, but not really progressed, is the idea of some storage loops on the main line. Without them the majority of traffic is simply round and round, with nowhere to go to, or come from. All trains will be on show constantly.

Re the branch station, my preference would be a terminus but with a siding or two, or loop, to allow more interesting and varied branch traffic (both passenger and goods).

[Harlequin]

56 minutes ago, ITG said:

Something mentioned earlier in this thread, but not really progressed, is the idea of some storage loops on the main line. Without them the majority of traffic is simply round and round, with nowhere to go to, or come from. All trains will be on show constantly.

Re the branch station, my preference would be a terminus but with a siding or two, or loop, to allow more interesting and varied branch traffic (both passenger and goods).

Yep, agree but perhaps Clive doesn't want a fiddle yard.

 

Having said that, two of the other issues that Chimer mentions, turning locos and somewhere for freight to come from and go to when not in the goods yard, would also benefit from a fiddle yard. Locos can be turned simply by picking them up and turning them around, by hand or using a "locolift" or cassette - you don't need a turntable, which can be quite difficult to fit in.

 

The latest design seems to include gradients on the branch for no real reason now - and they will still be quite steep. The elevation of "Milhampton halt" will visually separate it from the track in front, which is good, but because the tracks are so close on plan the branch will probably need a retaining wall all the way around the room, which might look odd. And there's no need to reach 120mm elevation - except to make the landscape around the tunnel work.

 

Clive, where is the door into the space?

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by Harlequin

[Zomboid]

In its current form I don't think the branch does much. I probably wouldn't bother with a branch at all, you could just put a very simple second station/ halt near the carriage sidings. Have the main station act as a double ended terminus for the trains that call there.

 

Alternatively take it to a terminus, but perhaps an imaginary one inside the tunnel. That then at least gives the illusion of the branch going somewhere different.

 

To be operationally interesting the main station needs to be somewhere trains terminate from both ends.

 

Are you doing steam or diesel/ electric era? (You mention a Bachmann 150, so presumably we're talking post 1985?).

Edited September 13, 2021 by Zomboid

[RobinofLoxley]

11 hours ago, Newbie2020 said:

Already thought of a possible problem with this. Locos picking up carriages from the storage sidings would always be facing the same direction? (one of the advantages of running it in TrainPlayer!!) How could I arrange this some some would be forward facing on the up and some forward facing on the down?

 

Clive

This was one of the reasons I directed you to trainplayer to discover this.

 

I also think that the branch line that is just a loop on a different level is wrong - you had it right the first time, but why dont you look at running it anticlockwise away from Lyneworth and ending the track somewhere past Millhampton. This gets round the gradient problem. You would have to play with the main station layout but not too much, taking the opportunity to lose the reverse curves on the left at the same time.

[Newbie2020]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

In its current form I don't think the branch does much. I probably wouldn't bother with a branch at all, you could just put a very simple second station/ halt near the carriage sidings. Have the main station act as a double ended terminus for the trains that call there.

 

Alternatively take it to a terminus, but perhaps an imaginary one inside the tunnel. That then at least gives the illusion of the branch going somewhere different.

 

To be operationally interesting the main station needs to be somewhere trains terminate from both ends.

 

Are you doing steam or diesel/ electric era? (You mention a Bachmann 150, so presumably we're talking post 1985?).

Late steam/early diesel but with a lot of "Artistic Licence" !! The class 150 is a nod to the trians I used to work some years ago. The Branch line was  essentially somewhere for the Class 150 to be whilst being "slightly separate from" the rest of the layout (Thats probably upset a lot of prototypical modellers!!) .

 

[Newbie2020]

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

Yep, agree but perhaps Clive doesn't want a fiddle yard.

 

Having said that, two of the other issues that Chimer mentions, turning locos and somewhere for freight to come from and go to when not in the goods yard, would also benefit from a fiddle yard. Locos can be turned simply by picking them up and turning them around, by hand or using a "locolift" or cassette - you don't need a turntable, which can be quite difficult to fit in.

 

The latest design seems to include gradients on the branch for no real reason now - and they will still be quite steep. The elevation of "Milhampton halt" will visually separate it from the track in front, which is good, but because the tracks are so close on plan the branch will probably need a retaining wall all the way around the room, which might look odd. And there's no need to reach 120mm elevation - except to make the landscape around the tunnel work.

 

Clive, where is the door into the space?

 

A fiddle yard is something I could use but just struggling to fit it all in!

 

The gradient was original there to visually seperate Millhampton Halt from the TMD below. As I pushed the branch line further back it made the elevation more tricky and to some extent, you're right, it became dictated by having to clear the tunnels.

 

The door is on the left side slightly closer to the top so there is minimal room in the top left corner, and the liftup/gate section will need to be on that left side.

[Newbie2020]

52 minutes ago, RobinofLoxley said:

I also think that the branch line that is just a loop on a different level is wrong - you had it right the first time, but why dont you look at running it anticlockwise away from Lyneworth and ending the track somewhere past Millhampton. This gets round the gradient problem. You would have to play with the main station layout but not too much, taking the opportunity to lose the reverse curves on the left at the same time.

I did think about this and the problem would be that down the left side is the liftup/gate section and I think this would be very tricky with any sort of gradient involved.

 

[Newbie2020]

3 hours ago, ITG said:

Something mentioned earlier in this thread, but not really progressed, is the idea of some storage loops on the main line. Without them the majority of traffic is simply round and round, with nowhere to go to, or come from. All trains will be on show constantly.

Re the branch station, my preference would be a terminus but with a siding or two, or loop, to allow more interesting and varied branch traffic (both passenger and goods).

My only problem with that is where to fit it in! I thought about poutting some storage loops behind a scenic break on the right hand side? maybe this would hide the unrealistically steep incline the branch line would need to clear the tunnels?

 

Clive

[Harlequin]

How about something like this very rough sketch?

 

 

I flipped it over to use the "south" side of the room, with more space beside the doorway, for the main station. The thinner side with the tighter radius curves next to the door is then for a non-scenic fiddle yard.

 

The branch line junction is not in Lyneworth station, it's further down the line. (It's actually hidden in the fiddle yard so it doesn't have to be realistic.) This remote junction arrangement is very common in the real world. A bay is provided in Lyneworth station for the branch passenger trains.

 

There are no "artificial" tunnels. Main line trains disappear through a scenic break into the fiddle yard and reappear from the fiddle yard further round the circuit. Either or both of those scenic breaks could be tunnel portals.

 

There's a little bit of operational awkwardness in that any goods train from Lyneworth to Millhampton has to be run around and crossover from the inner anti-clockwise side to the outer clockwise. But hey, that sort of thing happened in the real world and it makes life "interesting".

 

If Millhampton doesn't cover many tracks on the main level (as shown) the elevation of Millhampton, and where the gradient starts, is quite flexible. But if the worked out design required Millhampton to cover more main level tracks then it would need to be high enough to give good clearance and the gradient would need to be long enough to reach it. Aim for minimum 1 in 50 if you can. The drawing shows the longest possible gradient, which would give something like 200mm elevation at 1:50 or 133mm at 1:75 - allowing for transitions and a level section across the doorway.

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Harlequin

[Chimer]

I've got a thought that involves the MPD and carriage sidings being at Millhampton (because there wasn't room at Lyneworth) with a passenger shuttle from Lyneworth thrown in as an afterthought, originally mostly for railway workers' use.  So most traffic on the Millhampton branch would be ECS and light engine workings as required for trains terminating/reversing at Lyneworth.    Millhampton a couple of inches lower than Lyneworth with the main line passing behind Millhampton station on an embankment.  And with a couple of storage loops on one of the short sides (probably the left).

 

But before I try to develop this, can you tell me exactly where the access door is, and how wide it is, please?  And is 18' x 8' the correct measurement for the space?  Size does matter .... 

[Newbie2020]

1 hour ago, Chimer said:

I've got a thought that involves the MPD and carriage sidings being at Millhampton (because there wasn't room at Lyneworth) with a passenger shuttle from Lyneworth thrown in as an afterthought, originally mostly for railway workers' use.  So most traffic on the Millhampton branch would be ECS and light engine workings as required for trains terminating/reversing at Lyneworth.    Millhampton a couple of inches lower than Lyneworth with the main line passing behind Millhampton station on an embankment.  And with a couple of storage loops on one of the short sides (probably the left).

 

But before I try to develop this, can you tell me exactly where the access door is, and how wide it is, please?  And is 18' x 8' the correct measurement for the space?  Size does matter .... 

Sounds intruiging!

Edited September 13, 2021 by Newbie2020

[Chimer]

7 minutes ago, Newbie2020 said:

Sounds intruiging!

 

Thanks for the dimensions - it might be a day or two ....

[Newbie2020]

15 minutes ago, Chimer said:

 

Thanks for the dimensions - it might be a day or two ....

No rush at all! Thanks

[Chimer]

Progress to date - that's it for the night!

 

[Newbie2020]

1 hour ago, Chimer said:

Progress to date - that's it for the night!

 

That looks very interesting! 

[Harlequin]

FWIW, Here's my suggestion fleshed out a bit:

 

 

It's just the main level. I haven't decided how much of the branch line I would make visible yet and I haven't laid out Millhampton but I'm thinking that the brewery would be up there.

 

I also haven't laid out the MPD.

 

The fiddle yard has nine loops, 2 up, 2 down and 5 bi-directional. The bi-directional loops can store 7ft trains. Off-scene facing crossovers allow trains to enter any loop.

 

The curves in the top left corner are R2 and R3.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Harlequin

[Chimer]

Phil, I assume you've spotted that a train returning to the Millhampton bay platform at Lyneworth will be running wrong line when it exits the tunnel?  Just asking ...... 

[Harlequin]

7 minutes ago, Chimer said:

Phil, I assume you've spotted that a train returning to the Millhampton bay platform at Lyneworth will be running wrong line when it exits the tunnel?  Just asking ...... 

I don't think so - unless I've missed something.

Down the branch line, through one of the bidirectional centre fiddle yard loops (which are all effectively trailing crossovers), then on the anti-clockwise line into Lyneworth station, terminate at the anti-clockwise through platform, (loco may then run round if it's a loco hauled service) cross over to the clockwise and set back into the bay.

 

[Chimer]

4 hours ago, Harlequin said:

I don't think so - unless I've missed something.

Down the branch line, through one of the bidirectional centre fiddle yard loops (which are all effectively trailing crossovers), then on the anti-clockwise line into Lyneworth station, terminate at the anti-clockwise through platform, (loco may then run round if it's a loco hauled service) cross over to the clockwise and set back into the bay.

 

 

Of course - I was looking for a direct route to the bay (e.g. facing point and single slip).  Post in haste, repent at leisure!!