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Lyneworth Phase 2


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It does make it into more of a wayside station, where the action is in shunting the goods and branch train, whilst most traffic will just trundle by. It looks more realistic but that comes at the cost of interesting operation.

 

I personally prefer the original idea of a bigger station where loco changes happen, everything has to originate/ terminate and ECS is worked to and from the carriage sidings. That makes it a bit of a tail chaser, but it's philosophically a very different thing.

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2 hours ago, Zomboid said:

It does make it into more of a wayside station, where the action is in shunting the goods and branch train, whilst most traffic will just trundle by. It looks more realistic but that comes at the cost of interesting operation.

 

I personally prefer the original idea of a bigger station where loco changes happen, everything has to originate/ terminate and ECS is worked to and from the carriage sidings. That makes it a bit of a tail chaser, but it's philosophically a very different thing.

 

Hmmm, yes.

 

Edit: Adding some carriage sidings to my version of Lyneworth would go some way towards addressing this.

 

I put this suggestion forward, though, specifically to show Clive a design with a separate fiddle yard and the good and bad things that it brings - somewhere for trains to go to and come from, somewhere where densely packed stock doesn't look odd, somewhere you can handle stock to change things around but on the other hand the amount of valuable space it consumes.

 

I'm not sure that Clive has expressed a preference one way or the other yet...???

 

Edited by Harlequin
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18 hours ago, Harlequin said:

FWIW, Here's my suggestion fleshed out a bit:

 

newb6c.png.1bccd946297ab85d0960352327f6267e.png

 

It's just the main level. I haven't decided how much of the branch line I would make visible yet and I haven't laid out Millhampton but I'm thinking that the brewery would be up there.

 

I also haven't laid out the MPD.

 

The fiddle yard has nine loops, 2 up, 2 down and 5 bi-directional. The bi-directional loops can store 7ft trains. Off-scene facing crossovers allow trains to enter any loop.

 

The curves in the top left corner are R2 and R3.

dont forget to locate the archery club!

 

Btw the op already mentioned he wasnt keen on a 2-level lift-out section when I proposed the branch went over it. In truth it would have to be a swing in that case; not an easy install. But personally I think that placing the MPD opposite the goods makes a lot of sense for construction and operations, and on the same side as the main station.

Edited by RobinofLoxley
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Thanks everyone! Your efforts are really appreciated, this is where your experience shows !

 

Sadly I can see the benefits of both of these and think that's making it more confusing still:(.

 

The problem with two levels at the gate section is mainly about my competence in constructing the necessary gate there, as @RobinofLoxley says a lift up section wouldn't work. I've just watched a couple of YouTubes on gates, however, and they don't look quite as scary as I thought - more consultation with my joiner friend required!

 

Fiddle yard, I really need to look more at this in an operational way (this is where shows, or clubs that are open would come in handy! Damn Covid!!)

 

As the layout is in the garage, is it sensible to be keeping locos out there all the time? I am thinking climate here as the garage can get quite cold in winter and quite worm in summer? Happy to put some sort of heating in during very cold weather and new "almost sealed" electronic door has reduced the effect of drafts tremendously. Not too worried security wise as both doors have security locks and there is an alarm sensor in there too. Currently, after running locos I return them to there boxes and bring them in.

 

If this is the best way to do it then perhaps too many lanes of fiddle yard are not needed?

 

On the other hand it would make operation a lot easier day to day! (Sounding very much like a LibDem now  - this fence is uncomfortable! (No offence intended, other political parties are available!).

 

Thinking through, what I want is good opportunity to model both rail related scenery and countryside (think I'm going to struggle to fit my canal in lol) and some interesting but not too complicated operations.

 

@Zomboidmade a good point that struck me, about the larger station where I can operate locos with changes etc and move ECS around.

 

#confused.com

 

Clive

 

 

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9 hours ago, Newbie2020 said:

As the layout is in the garage, is it sensible to be keeping locos out there all the time?

I think the issues of a) damp and b) dust are going to be significant concerns for a garage layout. Pretty well nothing on a model railway layout likes dampness. Dust is hard to remove from scenic areas and it isn't friendly to anything that moves. I think that you need to concentrate efforts on fitting out a garage to deal with these two factors. Good insulation, thorough draftproofing and a source of heat in the winter are all part of the solution. What to do about the main garage door is a significant question, since these are usually poorly insulated and are as windproof as a sieve.

 

Yours,  Mike.

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1 hour ago, KingEdwardII said:

I think the issues of a) damp and b) dust are going to be significant concerns for a garage layout. Pretty well nothing on a model railway layout likes dampness. Dust is hard to remove from scenic areas and it isn't friendly to anything that moves. I think that you need to concentrate efforts on fitting out a garage to deal with these two factors. Good insulation, thorough draftproofing and a source of heat in the winter are all part of the solution. What to do about the main garage door is a significant question, since these are usually poorly insulated and are as windproof as a sieve.

 

Yours,  Mike.

As I'm starting the layout again from scratch, I'm going to use isulation board on the walls. The main garage door is pretty well sealed against wind with this new electronic door, probably not 100% but pretty close.

 

Clive

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25 minutes ago, Newbie2020 said:

As I'm starting the layout again from scratch, I'm going to use isulation board on the walls. The main garage door is pretty well sealed against wind with this new electronic door, probably not 100% but pretty close.

 

Clive

stock can always be stored in a chest of drawers fitted out for the purpose, or if the layout permits, on slide-outs underneath it. As long as they close fairly dust tight.

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13 minutes ago, RobinofLoxley said:

stock can always be stored in a chest of drawers fitted out for the purpose, or if the layout permits, on slide-outs underneath it. As long as they close fairly dust tight.

Was just watching a Youtube with a guy that has used plastic boxes with lids, looks simple and sensible.

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15 hours ago, Newbie2020 said:

Thanks everyone! Your efforts are really appreciated, this is where your experience shows !

 

Sadly I can see the benefits of both of these and think that's making it more confusing still:(.

 

The problem with two levels at the gate section is mainly about my competence in constructing the necessary gate there, as @RobinofLoxley says a lift up section wouldn't work. I've just watched a couple of YouTubes on gates, however, and they don't look quite as scary as I thought - more consultation with my joiner friend required!

 

Fiddle yard, I really need to look more at this in an operational way (this is where shows, or clubs that are open would come in handy! Damn Covid!!)

 

As the layout is in the garage, is it sensible to be keeping locos out there all the time? I am thinking climate here as the garage can get quite cold in winter and quite worm in summer? Happy to put some sort of heating in during very cold weather and new "almost sealed" electronic door has reduced the effect of drafts tremendously. Not too worried security wise as both doors have security locks and there is an alarm sensor in there too. Currently, after running locos I return them to there boxes and bring them in.

 

If this is the best way to do it then perhaps too many lanes of fiddle yard are not needed?

 

On the other hand it would make operation a lot easier day to day! (Sounding very much like a LibDem now  - this fence is uncomfortable! (No offence intended, other political parties are available!).

 

Thinking through, what I want is good opportunity to model both rail related scenery and countryside (think I'm going to struggle to fit my canal in lol) and some interesting but not too complicated operations.

 

@Zomboidmade a good point that struck me, about the larger station where I can operate locos with changes etc and move ECS around.

 

#confused.com

 

Clive

 

 

 

Re your reference to @Zomboid's comment, that's exactly what my design is seeking to achieve ......

 

On the wider points, you've been running trains in the garage for a while now, so presumably have encountered the dust and dampness issues and know what you need to do.  Is there still a full garage-width door as well as the one you're planning to use for normal access?

 

The thought of having to unbox/box stock before and after a running session does not appeal to me one little bit.  Locos, if stored on locolifts, maybe.  Passenger and freight stock - urrrgh.  My design assumes quite a lot of stock is around to work to its potential.

 

In my opinion, you need some hidden storage on the layout to get any variety of operation within a single running session.  Let's say you're running a passenger train on the inner circuit.  You maybe change the engine a couple of times ........ then you want to run a freight.  Where does it appear from?  And how do you get the passenger out of the way to give the freight a path?  The answer has to involves storage loops or sidings, hidden or in plain view.  And "in plain view" takes up a lot more scenically developed space to look at all realistic.

 

Hidden loops also means train A doesn't have to go round and round and round, you can alternate with train B (and C and D if you have more loops).  If you want things to be more realistic, you stick crossovers on the ends of the loop section so that having seen a loco/train running clockwise, you can next see it running anti-clockwise, though this involves more fiddling and turning of stock.  (Phil has shown this arrangement in his latest iteration, I didn't 'cos it won't fit easily).

 

All that said, I did do a design for @halsey of this parish (Search "Hawkesbury") which didn't involve storage loops which he has actually built and seems happy with.  Omitting the loops in my latest design for you would give more space to extend Lyneworth's station throats to allow two platforms (aka visible storage loops) in each direction.

 

Decisions, decisions .....

 

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Playing around with the current Lyneworth tonight and have had real fun with swapping locos around (Deltic and Class 40 tonight)  so I think that this is the way I'd want to go as @Chimer@Zomboid suggested. The small goods/industrial will enable the same with freight trains. So I think small minimally scenic fiddle yard or off scene one may be useful operationally as well.

 

Learning so much (albeit slowly!) thanks to every ones much appreciated input (and patience!).

 

Like how you need 6 hands when you have 2 locos running and need to change points and, of course, not forgetting to change them back:rolleyes:! Only 2 derailments - no casualties!

 

Clive

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A little reworking!695347474_Phase22.5.PNG.8ff3d3d8b3bdf41e6b4c5f28551c74dd.PNG

 

Back to a BLT but now with 2 platforms and facility for a loco to run around to take a train back to Lyneworth. 

 

Branch line starts at platform 1 and runs around the outside now splitting before rising to Millhampton.

 

Storage loops (I know they look a bit wobbly!) down the left side, with  minimal scenic (as thats the lift up section)

 

Plenty of space at Lyneworth, platform 2, 3 and 4 for rotating locos and shunting ECS to and from the carriage storage sidings.

 

MPD and sidings need more work but starting to look like my vision.

 

Clive

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21 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Storage loops on the lifting section seems to be a contradiction in terms...

 

You can't store anything there when you want to lift the section to get in or out.

 

:wacko: Didnt think that one through!!!!!!

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My advice is to keep the track on a lift-out section as simple as possible. The fewer the number of tracks, the fewer the possibilities for alignment issues where the tracks cross from the lift-out section to the fixed baseboards. The track crossing the ends of the lift-out should be straight and ideally at 90 degrees to the edge of the lift-out. Curved tracks can give you horrible alignment problems (been there, done that!).

 

In addition, if you place turnouts on the lift-out section, you then need to provide a means of operating them - more complication whether you use mechanical or electrical mechanisms.

 

My own lift-out carries a simple double track. 4 alignments to deal with on straight track. It works well - trains don't notice they are crossing a gap in the tracks. :)

 

Yours,  Mike.

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Here's my suggestion. Not wholly original, but should have good scope for loco changes, taking restaurant cars out, that kind of thing.

 

I'm imagining the terminus on a bit of a peninsula, so you can get a little access round the back to the loops (you can park 2 trains whilst a third circulates on each track, if you so wish, or stack 3 per circuit). I know nothing at all of MPDs so no details there...

 

newbie01-01.jpg.64b3a374026fc2fe50acfa710225bd5d.jpg

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35 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Here's my suggestion. Not wholly original, but should have good scope for loco changes, taking restaurant cars out, that kind of thing.

 

I'm imagining the terminus on a bit of a peninsula, so you can get a little access round the back to the loops (you can park 2 trains whilst a third circulates on each track, if you so wish, or stack 3 per circuit). I know nothing at all of MPDs so no details there...

 

newbie01-01.jpg.64b3a374026fc2fe50acfa710225bd5d.jpg

Hadn't thought about a peninsular, but very doable!

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On 16/09/2021 at 22:32, Harlequin said:

Storage loops on the lifting section seems to be a contradiction in terms...

 

You can't store anything there when you want to lift the section to get in or out.

 

Just to put my "oar"in ..........

 

Lift out sections are a real dilemma certainly for me and I would caution against "lifting" anything other than 2 simple tracks on the narrowest straight (but substantially built) lift out section possible.

 

"Hawkesbury" is now at a stage where its down to more detailed modelling to move it forward and I am once again facing the dilemma of living with the lift out as I tend not to actually lift it out but grovel underneath and that I'm finding increasingly physically hard - lifting out, however simple, is still a faff and still requires time and fiddling to avoid derailments.

 

BUT I don't think a layout without loops would ever keep me happy - hence the dilemma

 

Just to add as I have many times over the last 5 years or so - the "team" at RMW is a fantastic resource for a newbie or returnee I couldn't have even started without the level of help on here.

 

Above all enjoy the "ride"..............

 

J

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13 hours ago, Zomboid said:

Here's my suggestion. Not wholly original, but should have good scope for loco changes, taking restaurant cars out, that kind of thing.

 

I'm imagining the terminus on a bit of a peninsula, so you can get a little access round the back to the loops (you can park 2 trains whilst a third circulates on each track, if you so wish, or stack 3 per circuit).

 

We're thinking very similarly it seems.  For me there is much more point to the branch if it serves the MPD and carriage sidings - not sure it needs to be double track though.  The peninsula idea avoids the unlikely proximity of Millhampton to the main line, and I would suggest the loops section along the bottom wall is left in the open and sceniced - masquerading as  a section of 4-track main line, albeit with parked trains.  I suspect Clive would prefer 4 platforms at Lyneworth, though that would squeeze the space for the goods yard / brewery sidings, and I think the trailing crossovers there need to be at the outer edges of the station limits to allow trains to reverse and cross to the other line.  My first attempt to give Lyneworth 4 platforms ran out of space (in 18 feet!!!) but I might have another play incorporating the peninsula idea, if @Zomboid will waive copyright ......

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5 hours ago, Chimer said:

 

We're thinking very similarly it seems.  For me there is much more point to the branch if it serves the MPD and carriage sidings - not sure it needs to be double track though.  The peninsula idea avoids the unlikely proximity of Millhampton to the main line, and I would suggest the loops section along the bottom wall is left in the open and sceniced - masquerading as  a section of 4-track main line, albeit with parked trains.  I suspect Clive would prefer 4 platforms at Lyneworth, though that would squeeze the space for the goods yard / brewery sidings, and I think the trailing crossovers there need to be at the outer edges of the station limits to allow trains to reverse and cross to the other line.  My first attempt to give Lyneworth 4 platforms ran out of space (in 18 feet!!!) but I might have another play incorporating the peninsula idea, if @Zomboid will waive copyright ......

 

Agree. This is certainly going more towards my original vision modified to reality!

 

Clive

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Is there enough room to move around the peninsula terminus? Can it be supported with enough strength that it won't get knocked off level and the tracks possibly disconnected?

 

Edited by Harlequin
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The peninsula theory is only to allow (limited) access to the loops behind, which would be a long reach across the station and carriage sidings. I wouldn't envisage anyone actually going there - all loco changes etc are done at the main station by locomotives, so trains only wait round the back for their turn, and access is for dealing with derailments etc.

 

The idea behind the station is Exeter Central, so the centre roads are for shunting, holding locos and that kind of thing. There shouldn't be any need to hold trains there because the carriage sidings and loops provide that. Two main line platforms is a characteristic feature, and I don't think more would improve play value - might even detract as the function of the centre roads would be lost if they were platforms, and replacing it would need yet more track.

 

The double track branch was mostly a "can I do this?" exercise, but in reality it would probably be pretty busy with ECS and light engines, so would be very likely to justify double track. The actual passenger service up there probably wouldn't need two platforms at the terminus though.

 

And @Chimer, I've pretty much ripped you off so I can't very well claim copyright!

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4 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Is there enough room to move around the peninsula terminus? Can it be supported with enough strength that it won't get knocked off level and the tracks possibly disconnected?

 

I've run this by my joiner friend and he says it's not a problem to make it stable and secure.

 

Room wise, I think there should be but it will restrict a little the depth of the baseboards around Lyneworth station itself.

 

Edited by Newbie2020
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7 hours ago, Newbie2020 said:

I've run this by my joiner friend and he says it's not a problem to make it stable and secure.

 

Room wise, I think there should be but it will restrict a little the depth of the baseboards around Lyneworth station itself.

 

I quite like this plan.

Assuming the grid squares are 1 foot, it looks like there’s maybe 15 inches gap (at most)  between the peninsula and the lower board. Not a huge gap to squeeze into for anyone of moderate size. Access from here into those lower tracks may be tricky, especially if hidden, although a behind the backscene approach wouldn’t be so bad. Or else leave them entirely open, whether scenic or not.

 

I wonder if the bend running into the terminus could be pushed wider into the bottom right, and the station/peninsula itself angled more towards the top left? Yes, it would bring it physically closer to the through station, although there’d still be the physical break of the access area. That then would widen some of the gap below the peninsula.

 

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The viability of a peninsula really depends on the size and mobility of the OP. I've essentially sketched 5' of track width in the 8' space, and whilst boards can be tapered to increase the gaps in some places, there's still only 8' to use. I only imagined the bottom gap to be emergency access to the loops so it could be narrow, but it may still not work...

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Just to push the through-station + fiddle-yard + BLT concept to a conclusion and to show that it could be a nice workable design for someone, if not you Clive, here's where I got to with my idea.

 

This is the main level:

newb6h.png.6e46fbc49ee6d90f15a113831491baff.png

At Lyneworth I added carriage sidings, laid out the MPD and increased the length of the headshunt.

The fiddle yard loops have been joggled to clear the support posts for Millhampton and an extra crossover added to get branch traffic onto the inner through line as directly as possible, leaving the loops purely for storage.

Simple lifting flap across the doorway with straight track joints - easy to build.

 

And then the high level, terminating at something like 170mm above the main level:

671422844_newb6hhigh.png.83f5182f1c484bc3ce18de9ff5c12bf4.png

The branch line climbs behind Lyneworth @ 1 in 50, separated by a retaining wall which becomes a viaduct and crosses over the main line (always fun to see one train running above another).

It spans the doorway on another lifting flap, also with straight track joints. The angle allows the curve into Millhampton to be more open than the 2nd and 3rd radius curves nearby on the main level.

Millhampton is your classic BLT but in the steam transition era the engine shed and/or the goods shed have been sold off and are now occupied by local businesses, such as perhaps a brewery.

 

Millhampton leaves the bulk of the fiddle yard open for access and the covered parts are easily within reach.

 

If you add minimal viaduct-top detail to the branch line flap and a simple sky backscene around the room behind it, it could look very effective and give you scenery all round the room.

 

Edited by Harlequin
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