9Fs struggled with Cliffe-Uddingston Cement trains on Stoke Bank?

[Flying Pig]

20 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Indeed - and was despite several unplanned stops to detach wagons with hot boxes.  Hoole had something of a reputation asa 'hard runner' which also meant in reality being hard on the Fireman and on the engine so he was not particularly popular as a  work mate with Top Shed Firemen who tried to steer clear of him.

 

I don't suppose the customers whose consignments were delayed in the crippled wagons were overjoyed either.

[Fat Controller]

57 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Indeed - and was despite several unplanned stops to detach wagons with hot boxes.  Hoole had something of a reputation asa 'hard runner' which also meant in reality being hard on the Fireman and on the engine so he was not particularly popular as a  work mate with Top Shed Firemen who tried to steer clear of him.  

 

I sometimes wonder if his way of driving almost harked back to the pre-war days of the A4s when they could be worked hard out of the Cross and all the way up to the first summit at Potters Bar with minimal firing to get it there (still possible in BR s days with an engine in absolutely tip-top condition but they were increasingly a rarity).

One of my former drivers had fired for him on a few times out of King's Cross, and hadn't been impressed.

[russ p]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Indeed - and was despite several unplanned stops to detach wagons with hot boxes.  Hoole had something of a reputation asa 'hard runner' which also meant in reality being hard on the Fireman and on the engine so he was not particularly popular as a  work mate with Top Shed Firemen who tried to steer clear of him.  

 

I sometimes wonder if his way of driving almost harked back to the pre-war days of the A4s when they could be worked hard out of the Cross and all the way up to the first summit at Potters Bar with minimal firing to get it there (still possible in BR s days with an engine in absolutely tip-top condition but they were increasingly a rarity).

 

Was it him that tipped the W1 over?

I know a couple of blokes that were KX firemen and they hated him

[The Johnster]

With very good reason IMHO. 
 

Speed merchants of that sort are bad drivers, simple as.  Any idiot can open the regulator, put her in full gear, and blaze away, then curse anything that slows him down.  The speed limits, whether on track or the stock, are there for good reasons, and consistently ignoring them suggests an arrogance and contempt for your mates that is never going to make you popular, and a lack of pride and competence in the job.  A skilled driver prides himself on keeping time and making it up within the limits while using the minimum possible amount of coal and water, and not attempting to break the fireman or wrap the guard around the stove pipe. Not to mention that you are courting disaster because there may well come a day when you can’t stop in time…

Edited September 10, 2021 by The Johnster

[The Johnster]

10 hours ago, david.hill64 said:

A good friend of mine, and a railwayman to boot, will often over a pint regale me of trip he had in the early 60's from Euston to Glasgow on the relief Mid Day Scot, which ran 15 minutes ahead of the main service. Britannia from Euston to Crewe, Duchess from Crewe to Carlisle, the shock, horror, a black 5 from there to Central. He fully expected to be looped and have to take a banker for Beattock, but the driver was having none of it and assaulted the bank with gusto. Bob doesn't relate whether they were right time on arrival, but he does offer it as an example of what was just about possible with an engine in good condition and a willing crew.

They may well have been right time on arrival, assuming they were right time away from Carlisle, as a driver willing to thrash the loco up to Beattock, and mortgage the boiler in the process, will probably take the opportunity of running fast under light steam down the other side.  Black 5s were not noted for good riding, so it then becomes a case of hanging on and gritting your teeth!  

[Darryl Tooley]

2 hours ago, russ p said:

 

Was it him that tipped the W1 over?

The accident involving  60700 at Peterborough in the mid-1950s was caused by a front bogie frame fracture.

 

2 hours ago, russ p said:

I know a couple of blokes that were KX firemen and they hated him

Hoole was the Driver of 60508 when it derailed at New Southgate in 1948.  The fireman was killed in the accident.

 

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

The speed limits, whether on track or the stock, are there for good reasons, and consistently ignoring them suggests an arrogance and contempt for your mates

The 1948 accident was evidently widely viewed in this light, not least amongst KX firemen.

 

D

[MarkC]

1 hour ago, russ p said:

 

Was it him that tipped the W1 over?

I know a couple of blokes that were KX firemen and they hated him

In fairness, wasn't it a broken axle that caused the W1 to come to grief? Can't put that one down to <ahem> "spirited running"...

 

IIRC it was a Thompson A2/1, was it 60508? that Hoole was involved with - a bogie derailment. Same result though - loco on its side.

[russ p]

28 minutes ago, Darryl Tooley said:

The accident involving  60700 at Peterborough in the mid-1950s was caused by a front bogie frame fracture.

 

Hoole was the Driver of 60508 when it derailed at New Southgate in 1948.  The fireman was killed in the accident.

 

The 1948 accident was evidently widely viewed in this light, not least amongst KX firemen.

 

D

 

That must be the one I remember someone saying he was involved in an accident which killed his fireman 

[jonny777]

The Cliffe-Uddingston cement trains were about 1000t loaded when I saw them pass through Grantham, although I'm not sure if the 9Fs hauled many of the PCV trains which were 30 wagons plus a brake van. 

 

I'm also not sure how many of the earlier Presflos made up the train before the new wagons were introduced. I suspect the details are in a Railway Observer/Trains Illustrated somewhere. 

 

Might it be that the 9Fs could not accelerate the train from a standing start quickly enough to pick up water at troughs, and therefore had to stop more often to use the water columns at stations? 

 

 

[kevinlms]

6 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

LMS Garratts worked trains up Lickey as part of the journey but weren't used as bankers on it, or anywhere else. The Garratt that was used was the ex-LNER one designed as a banker for the Worsborough Incline.  At Bromsgrove, it was turned so the chimney was to the bottom of the incline to aid buffering up; and it was converted to oil firing. Its boiler was not designed to produce a lot of steam over a lot of time, but the length of the Lickey didn't require this.

 

The usual response to an engine which wouldn't steam was to send out a footplate inspector to observe what was happening and then 'educate' the men if he he saw they were doing it wrong. But it's true that the Garratt was never popular with Bromsgrove crews.

This is what I was referring to, of a train with 2 Garratts.

 

The LNER Class U1 Garratt was also tried out unsuccessfully in 1949–1950 and again in 1955. On one occasion it was banking a train hauled by LMS Garratt No. 47972 which stalled on the bank and was rescued by "Big Bertha",[19] resulting in the formation of a train with nineteen driving axles.

 

From

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lickey_Incline#Steam_locomotives

 

OK, it's Wikipedia, but I know I've read the same thing in a book on Lickey.

 

[DCB]

A much maligned beast the LNER U1. 

It spent years shoving trains up Worsborough Bank, very successfully. It could shove trains over the top at 12 MPH, if two 04s were used instead they had to stop to detach the pilot, and then restart on a 1 in 120 ish gradient.   All it really needed was two firemen to feed the 70sq ft firebox.

[john new]

But the Wikipedia text does not state whether either or both the individual engines failed or what the train weight was merely that the train stalled. Was it a routine loading or a trial to see if the pairing of the LMS Garratt (train engine) and the LNER Garratt (banking), could get x tons extra up the bank over and above the existing load taken by a single ex-LMS Garratt plus the usual bankers?

 

If they moved the LNER loco there to try it, there was presumably a reason to do that, is the trial properly written up anywhere?

Edited September 10, 2021 by john new

[Phil Bullock]

35 minutes ago, john new said:

But the Wikipedia text does not state whether either or both the individual engines failed or what the train weight was merely that the train stalled. Was it a routine loading or a trial to see if the pairing of the LMS Garratt (train engine) and the LNER Garratt (banking), could get x tons extra up the bank over and above the existing load taken by a single ex-LMS Garratt plus the usual bankers?

 

If they moved the LNER loco there to try it, there was presumably a reason to do that, is the trial properly written up anywhere?

Was it a case of the LNER Garratt no longer being needed at Worsborough following electrification and trying to find other work? 

[keefer]

Bit about the LNER Garrat here:

https://www.lner.info/locos/U/u1.php

[Caley739]

1 hour ago, DCB said:

A much maligned beast the LNER U1. 

It spent years shoving trains up Worsborough Bank, very successfully. It could shove trains over the top at 12 MPH, if two 04s were used instead they had to stop to detach the pilot, and then restart on a 1 in 120 ish gradient.   All it really needed was two firemen to feed the 70sq ft firebox.

The LNER Garrat with its 56.5 sq ft firebox (not 70 sq ft) was certainly unpopular with Bromsgrove firemen, but it was similarly detested by LNER firemen. It was reputedly a poor steamer with pressure as low as 100 lbs at the end of its climb, probably not helped by the bad water available and difficult tunnel working conditions. There seem to have been many nefarious strategies employed to ensure that it could be failed. It spent a lot of time on shed under repair.

The real mystery is why it was built in the first place. It might have been ordered by the Great Central and the LNER was presented with a fait accompli. It is even suggested that the order was for 2 of them. Gresley wanted none of it. His preferred number was none.

It looks like this powerfull ,expensive machine was aquired with no clear idea of how it was to be utilised, a white elephant right from the start. I do not believe that it was intended for banking work.

I refer anyone interested to a sadly defunct magazine with an interesting article, Vintage LNER No 23 by Owen Russell.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Caley739
spelling

[Caley739]

16 hours ago, david.hill64 said:

A good friend of mine, and a railwayman to boot, will often over a pint regale me of trip he had in the early 60's from Euston to Glasgow on the relief Mid Day Scot, which ran 15 minutes ahead of the main service. Britannia from Euston to Crewe, Duchess from Crewe to Carlisle, the shock, horror, a black 5 from there to Central. He fully expected to be looped and have to take a banker for Beattock, but the driver was having none of it and assaulted the bank with gusto. Bob doesn't relate whether they were right time on arrival, but he does offer it as an example of what was just about possible with an engine in good condition and a willing crew.

If this tale is true your friend must have been a passenger. This train would have had 3 different crews between Euston and Glasgow. As far as I recall any passenger train taking a banker at Beattock stopped on the down main. I don't think passenger trains ever used the down loop(s), maybe unauthorised or because rarely unoccupied by goods trains.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Caley739

[The Johnster]

Even the 'non-stop' Royal Scot and Caledonian were actually booked to pull up at Upperby for crew relief on the running line outside the shed, though ISTR there was an LMS corridor tender built.  Corridor tenders were used to relieve crews on the KX-Edinburgh non stop trains, the relief crew riding on the cushions in a reserved first class compartment at the front of the train and making their way through to the loco cab between Thirsk and Northallerton, about half way in terms of time.  The relieved crew then took to the cushions in the reserved compartment in to Edinburgh, or the Cross in the up direcetion; these were double home turns.

 

A bottle of cool beer for each man relieved, Driver and Fireman, was provided by the restaurant car steward 'on the company', a thing that would not be tolerated nowadays!

[pH]

45 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Even the 'non-stop' Royal Scot and Caledonian were actually booked to pull up at Upperby for crew relief on the running line outside the shed …

 
That was the ‘up’ trains. The ‘down’ trains stopped opposite Kingmoor shed for the crew change. (From ‘British Pacific Locomotives’ by CJ Allen.)

[LMS2968]

42 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

ISTR there was an LMS corridor tender built.  Corridor tenders were used to relieve crews on the KX-Edinburgh non stop trains, the relief crew riding on the cushions in a reserved first class compartment at the front of the train and making their way through to the loco cab between Thirsk and Northallerton, about half way in terms of time.  The relieved crew then took to the cushions in the reserved compartment in to Edinburgh, or the Cross in the up direcetion; these were double home turns.

You're right, there was an LMS corridor tender, but it wasn't used on normal service trains. It seems to have been intended as a normal Stanier 4000 gallon type, No. 9073, but was converted to a test vehicle as No. 4999. The bunker was divided to accommodate loose coal on one side and pre-weighed bagged coal on the other. It was presumably to allow engineers in the dynamometer car to access the footplate during tests, but I don't think the ex-L&YR car 45050 had a matching corridor connection at the 'business' end, i.e. the one coupled to the tender. The tender was eventually rebuilt to the normal Stanier type and ran behind Black Five 5235.

[bude_branch]

7 hours ago, Darryl Tooley said:

Hoole was the Driver of 60508 when it derailed at New Southgate in 1948.  The fireman was killed in the accident.

 

Whilst I don't have the official report to hand, if I recall correctly the accident was primarily attributed to a high rail joint in Barnet Tunnel, although the locomotive was also found to have a weakened bogie spring - it was the trailing bogie axle that initially derailed.

 

The locomotive was not fitted with a speedometer and it was estimated that on the falling gradient after Hadley Wood speed had crept up  towards 70mph - although this was above the 60mph post war limit on this section, the Inspecting Officer did not consider it to be a significant factor.

[david.hill64]

5 hours ago, Caley739 said:

If this tale is true your friend must have been a passenger. 

He was a passenger. He was an operations manager for London Transport returning home to Glasgow. He had been concerned that with just a Black 5 time would have been lost to the extent that his train would have to be looped somewhere to let the Scot pass. Why would he lie?

[LMS2968]

Not lie as such, but I've read many of the memoirs of former railwaymen, and you do need to filter the stories somewhat. It's like the fisherman's tale: he  starts by holding his hands a foot or so apart, but after a few tellings, his arms aren't long enough! 

[The Border Reiver]

11 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

You're right, there was an LMS corridor tender, but it wasn't used on normal service trains. It seems to have been intended as a normal Stanier 4000 gallon type, No. 9073, but was converted to a test vehicle as No. 4999. The bunker was divided to accommodate loose coal on one side and pre-weighed bagged coal on the other. It was presumably to allow engineers in the dynamometer car to access the footplate during tests, but I don't think the ex-L&YR car 45050 had a matching corridor connection at the 'business' end, i.e. the one coupled to the tender. The tender was eventually rebuilt to the normal Stanier type and ran behind Black Five 5235.

The LMS corridor tender was stored in the roundhouse at Carlisle Durranhill shed for years. Us local kids used to play on it in the 1950s

 

[kevinlms]

15 hours ago, john new said:

But the Wikipedia text does not state whether either or both the individual engines failed or what the train weight was merely that the train stalled. Was it a routine loading or a trial to see if the pairing of the LMS Garratt (train engine) and the LNER Garratt (banking), could get x tons extra up the bank over and above the existing load taken by a single ex-LMS Garratt plus the usual bankers?

 

If they moved the LNER loco there to try it, there was presumably a reason to do that, is the trial properly written up anywhere?

For some reason, I can't find my copy of the book 'Over the Lickey!'. I'm sure the answers are there.

 

I don't believe it was routine, but part of a trial.

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, LMS2968 said:

Not lie as such, but I've read many of the memoirs of former railwaymen, and you do need to filter the stories somewhat. It's like the fisherman's tale: he  starts by holding his hands a foot or so apart, but after a few tellings, his arms aren't long enough! 

That's true and I don't deny it.

 

However, the original drawings sometimes don't depict what was actually built. I remember reading of a bloke that was planning on building a model of a station. He had taken a quantity of photos and discovered that he could get a copy of the official drawings, so he duly ordered a set.

 

On arrival he studied them and it didn't make sense, because his photos didn't match.

 

The realisation dawned, the station builder had built it as a mirror image, to what the drawing showed. He had no idea if the builder had built it wrong (seems unlikely), or the railway company had changed their mind for some reason. Who knows if drawings existed of the station as actually built?