Barmouth Bridge

[wombatofludham]

For many years the bridge opened to allow the occupier of Coes Faen (the Clock House) to sail his boat up to the back door, and I've seen a photo of the bridge open in the 1960s but my understanding is, apart from tests of the mechanism, by the late 60s the bridge seldom opened "for real" and eventually the mechanism was removed.  Today the Three Peaks sets off from the harbour.

Penmaenpool was home to some ship building industry and was the limit of tidal waters where wool from Dolgellau and slate from nearby could be loaded onto coastal craft.  Prior to the Cambrian railway building the line from Barmouth Junction to Dolgellau, when they built the tollbridge across the river at the limit of navigation, a ferry used to ply the river there, so there would probably have been a period when the bridge would have been opened more frequently before the railway killed off the coastal trade in slate and wool products.

[corneliuslundie]

That would fit as it was probably about 1972, the year of our first visit to Barmouth. I think it may well have been the last time.

Jonathan

[NCB]

Seems the bridge will remain closed until at least the end of December:

https://www.cambrian-news.co.uk/article.cfm?id=138284&headline=Cambrian Coast line to remain closed for Christmas&sectionIs=news&searchyear=2021

[wombatofludham]

Yes, a combination of weather and additional rot being found.  To be honest, the aim to reopen on the 19th seemed a bit of a hostage to fortune and honestly a bit pointless, as the schools would be breaking up by then, and most people will have got most of their Christmas shopping done (assuming they are shopping in person) so they might as well take advantage of the Christmas shutdown and crack on with the backlog and additional work.  It's also no surprise they have found new areas of rot to deal with as I'm sure anyone who has done any restoration work will know once you start removing bits of structure that have been there years, you usually find it's hidden something worse.

Locally it seems to have been met with an attitude of "well, to be expected, let's get it done now" by the public.

[big jim]

On 11/10/2021 at 21:42, wombatofludham said:

For many years the bridge opened to allow the occupier of Coes Faen (the Clock House) to sail his boat up to the back door, and I've seen a photo of the bridge open in the 1960s but my understanding is, apart from tests of the mechanism, by the late 60s the bridge seldom opened "for real" and eventually the mechanism was removed.  Today the Three Peaks sets off from the harbour.

I’ve mentioned this before elsewhere but my great grandad used to be the civil engineer in charge of Barmouth bridge back in the 1960s (I think) he opened the swing bridge one hot summers day and was unable to close it again due to heat expansion, they had to wait until it cooled down in the evening to be able to close it, I believe they also sprayed seawater on it to cool it, probably why it’s rotten now! 
 

 

[Quarryscapes]

Sorry to offend you all, but Y Bermo is what we actually call it in Welsh. 

 

I had planned to take a lot more pics of the works this year since it's literally on the doorstep, but I've been too busy. These are from September!

 

 

 

 

[corneliuslundie]

 

Ond dylai'r dref fod yn Abermawddach, a dylai'r bont fod yn Bont Abermawddach.
But the town should be Abermawddach, and the bridge should be Pont Abermawddach.
Nadolig Llawen
Jonathan

[RJS1977]

It does seem a shame that in these circumstances, the entire line beyond Machynlleth is subject to rail replacement buses, and not just the section on which the work is being carried out (although I can see a logic in having passengers staying on the same bus throughout rather than having to change twice on their journey).

[NCB]

On 24/12/2021 at 11:26, RJS1977 said:

It does seem a shame that in these circumstances, the entire line beyond Machynlleth is subject to rail replacement buses, and not just the section on which the work is being carried out (although I can see a logic in having passengers staying on the same bus throughout rather than having to change twice on their journey).

Does the bus from Machynlleth stop at all stations to Morfa Mawddach, then divert inland via Dolgellau then west to Barmouth? That diversion would take a bit of time.

 

What they could have done was train to Fairbourne, Fairbourne Railway to the ferry, ferry across to Barmouth, and coach from ferry to Barmouth Station.  Much more interesting!

[RJS1977]

2 hours ago, NCB said:

Does the bus from Machynlleth stop at all stations to Morfa Mawddach, then divert inland via Dolgellau then west to Barmouth? That diversion would take a bit of time.

 

What they could have done was train to Fairbourne, Fairbourne Railway to the ferry, ferry across to Barmouth, and coach from ferry to Barmouth Station.  Much more interesting!

 

They have certainly done that in the past. However the combination of time of year and Covid restrictions may have counted against it this time.

[Robert Shrives]

The route has seen work on most of its length during the closure with track relaid in several places and necessary modifications to platforms to make the new trains fit .... Hopefully it will be possible to have a train to Tywyn as the road to Mach is a real nasty bit of route, with modern poor standards of driving by 4x4 tanklets the road is a railplacement crash site waiting to happen. A road replacement could then run via Corris to Dol and Y Bermo.

 

Several hundred ( or it seems) years ago I had the honour(?) of being  one of the RR power controllers for the Cambrian. When the bridge west of Welshpool was subject to self inflicted flood damage we had two temporary platforms and folk walked across and rejoined the train. Thus sets were trapped at Mach. after one set ran out of miles I got involved with a pair of 153s roaded TS - Porthmadog  to keep the service going. Back then milage was the basis of maintenance exams. It seems TfW and Arriva before had gone to a days run plan and with no pit at Pwhelli  it is not now so easy as after 14 days sets would have to be transfer roaded out, seemingly Barmouth used to make an easy job harder.  Port - Traws- A470 - Bala- A5- M54- M6 - TS  was the route Reg Rail , despite police routing experts trying to send a 27m load via Bettws and a hairpin bend  to run via Blaenau.      

 

Not seen else where but the road replacement drivers were aware contract to be extended into January and option to mid March.  Issues reported with not only more rot but wrong wood used and new to be sourced.  When done the route will be in a good position for several years until new trains arrive. These arereportdly- seated for suburban use 2 car only despite publicity for "longer trains" from TfC.  Amazingly recreating the farce of when RR had mixed fleets of fitted for Cambrian RETB  158s  and others not  needless to say poorly organised at Shrewsbury set swaps took place , still take place and even with new trains will take place - nothing having been learnt since 1987 when RETB slunk on to the scene...   New trains same old service.. ho hum!  

 

I have been a regular user since 1979 when I started volunteering on FfR in 1979 and hopefully will again enjoy a bus in early January if allowed of course.

Robert  

[wombatofludham]

3 hours ago, NCB said:

Does the bus from Machynlleth stop at all stations to Morfa Mawddach, then divert inland via Dolgellau then west to Barmouth? That diversion would take a bit of time.

 

What they could have done was train to Fairbourne, Fairbourne Railway to the ferry, ferry across to Barmouth, and coach from ferry to Barmouth Station.  Much more interesting!

I haven't used the services but we have a minibus coming into Fairbourne displaying "Rail Replacement" but when I went for my booster in Barmouth last week, I passed a larger Lloyds coach displaying Rail Replacement, followed 30 minutes later on the other side of the estuary by passing the minibus, which suggests they may be running a split service of skip stopping services for longer distances and the minibus crawling around the coast on the all shacks.

This time of the year the Fairbourne railway option is a non-starter, at the moment we've got a very gusty easterly coming down off Cader in lee-wave motion which would make the ferry a bit of a chunderbucket if not positively dangerous.  The other thing to consider is whether the ERTMS has the flexibility to allow a train to terminate somewhere like Fairbourne, or even Tywyn which at least has a loop.  I'm sure I was told that the system logic only allows certain places to become terminating places, although I'm sure others will be able to explain.

[big jim]

If I’m remembering this correctly as it’s been about 5 years since I’ve done ertms down the Cambrian You could turn back at fairbourne but until the unit passes over a Belize in the track which determines its exact location then I’m the driver would have to travel ‘on sight’ which means the train could do no more than 25kph, the nearest Belize to fairbourne is probably Tywyn 

 

i may have got that all wrong though! 

[wombatofludham]

8 minutes ago, big jim said:

If I’m remembering this correctly as it’s been about 5 years since I’ve done ertms down the Cambrian You could turn back at fairbourne but until the unit passes over a Belize in the track which determines its exact location then I’m the driver would have to travel ‘on sight’ which means the train could do no more than 25kph, the nearest Belize to fairbourne is probably Tywyn 

 

i may have got that all wrong though! 

That was more or less what I had heard, and I was given to believe that the balises are located at loops which would mean Tywyn or Barmouth.  I assume a turnback at Llwyngwril or Fairbourne would require a special authorisation message from Machynlleth to be entered onto the system and displayed on the cab display otherwise the system will assume the train having left the Tywyn waypoint won't leave the section until passing the Barmouth waypoint.

[Robert Shrives]

Yes, the bus replacement is vehicle rich, with a minibus making an all stops  service and a larger vehicle calling main stations and interchange points only.  Both still connect into services at Mach .  The journey times are such that the buses depart Pwlhelli 40 minutes ahead of the normal train time to connect into the same service from Mach, one big benefit of this working arrangement is all trains now call on the main building side and the steps and lift- as newly provided are fenced off !! Mind you the battered road bridge still looks very battered having been in a score draw with a tipper truck in the autumn.  Road vehicle transit times do mean driver break required at each end

this does not fit the timetable so quite generous vehicle provision required. Unlike rail based operations spares are sprinkled along the route manned and ready - if only the real railway was resourced to that level!! 

 

National rail standards do mean except in emergency  rail replacement road services need to start and finish at manned stations to allow assistance to be provided, even if no step locations. So to use Tywyn or Fairbourne then staff need to be provided - but of course no facilities in place, an I guess nobody thought to challenge NR about funding same when route available. From the Operator point of view Tywyn makes a logical turnback as it uses less units to provide the service - It could be a 2 car 158 shuttle operated by Pwlhelli crews that are much idle at this time - unwilling beneficiaries of the current exercise ( other words available). Crews would still suffer large road idle mileage runs but Mach does not have enough staff on the books to do all the work - even allowing for the reduced levels of service and Covid crew safety considerations.  

 

Still at the end of the day the route has had more investment in the last few years than the previous 30 so setting it up well for the next 30, which might well be the end of it anyway.  I guess one ball not picked up is that Dol could have like  Hawick been given a station -served by road vehicles and put back on the network. 

Robert        

[wombatofludham]

It's a shame no-one has approached the Pre-Metro team behind the Stourbridge Shuttle to provide a battery powered PPM between Dolgellau and Morfa Mawddach to connect into and out of the Cambrian.  If built as a tramway vehicle, possibly on a narrow gauge track, it could easily co-exist with the Mawddach Trail, and there is room for a small halt near the Marian carpark, which could sacrifice a few parking spaces to incorporate a bus interchange to allow the Traws Cymru's to do their connections.  There's room for a small depot, and give the wind we get round here, a wind turbine would allow the PPM to plug into free energy to top up the batteries.  A small battery powered PPM, say the size of the Stourbridge example, should be enough, and it would be a showcase for similar low cost projects elsewhere in locations where there is a town just a few miles from the main line where a shuttle could be an attractive alternative to a road bus.

 

[Ben B]

12 hours ago, Robert Shrives said:

Yes, the bus replacement is vehicle rich, with a minibus making an all stops  service and a larger vehicle calling main stations and interchange points only.  Both still connect into services at Mach .  The journey times are such that the buses depart Pwlhelli 40 minutes ahead of the normal train time to connect into the same service from Mach, one big benefit of this working arrangement is all trains now call on the main building side and the steps and lift- as newly provided are fenced off !! Mind you the battered road bridge still looks very battered having been in a score draw with a tipper truck in the autumn.  Road vehicle transit times do mean driver break required at each end

this does not fit the timetable so quite generous vehicle provision required. Unlike rail based operations spares are sprinkled along the route manned and ready - if only the real railway was resourced to that level!! 

 

National rail standards do mean except in emergency  rail replacement road services need to start and finish at manned stations to allow assistance to be provided, even if no step locations. So to use Tywyn or Fairbourne then staff need to be provided - but of course no facilities in place, an I guess nobody thought to challenge NR about funding same when route available. From the Operator point of view Tywyn makes a logical turnback as it uses less units to provide the service - It could be a 2 car 158 shuttle operated by Pwlhelli crews that are much idle at this time - unwilling beneficiaries of the current exercise ( other words available). Crews would still suffer large road idle mileage runs but Mach does not have enough staff on the books to do all the work - even allowing for the reduced levels of service and Covid crew safety considerations.  

 

Still at the end of the day the route has had more investment in the last few years than the previous 30 so setting it up well for the next 30, which might well be the end of it anyway.  I guess one ball not picked up is that Dol could have like  Hawick been given a station -served by road vehicles and put back on the network. 

Robert        

 

I'd hate to be putting up with the replacement buses... about 2005 me and a friend travelled from Wolvo to Barmouth, at Mach the train stopped, the engine switched off.  After a few minutes the conductor mentioned, practically in passing, that the train was terminating there due to a driver shortage and we'd have to continue on the rail-replacement bus.  It turned out to be a rather old minibus, which crawled up to Fairborne, then went inland to Dolgellau before getting back to Barmouth.  I remember we were very annoyed, we'd only gone up to Barmouth for the day but we didn't hit the beach until about 1pm, giving us all of three hours before we needed to come back.

 

It did make me wonder if at some point the Department for Transport would decide that Barmouth Bridge was beyond saving (rather like they did with the toll bridge near Penrhyn), and build a combined road/rail crossing on the estuary, some monstrous great concrete flyover.  At least they're doing a mending job on it now, hopefully there'll be an improvement in services at some point, though it doesn't sound like it with the modern suburban-format stock coming.

[RJS1977]

21 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

It's a shame no-one has approached the Pre-Metro team behind the Stourbridge Shuttle to provide a battery powered PPM between Dolgellau and Morfa Mawddach to connect into and out of the Cambrian.  If built as a tramway vehicle, possibly on a narrow gauge track, it could easily co-exist with the Mawddach Trail, and there is room for a small halt near the Marian carpark, which could sacrifice a few parking spaces to incorporate a bus interchange to allow the Traws Cymru's to do their connections.  There's room for a small depot, and give the wind we get round here, a wind turbine would allow the PPM to plug into free energy to top up the batteries.  A small battery powered PPM, say the size of the Stourbridge example, should be enough, and it would be a showcase for similar low cost projects elsewhere in locations where there is a town just a few miles from the main line where a shuttle could be an attractive alternative to a road bus.

 

 

The narrow gauge PPM trialled on the Festiniog hardly covered itself in glory....

[wombatofludham]

Early prototype.

Since that was built the Stourbridge PPM has become a very reliable operation.  Whilst that was built to standard gauge with a car engine, the gauge shouldn't be an issue, and battery tech has come on in leaps and bounds.  A narrow gauge PPM fitted with electric bus batteries and motors would be quiet, able to share the Mawddach Trail and George III car park at Penmaenpool if run under tramway regulations, and given the level of service needed to connect with trains at Morfa Mawddach, would have plenty of time to opportunity-charge as necessary during layover.

Sharing the Trail and carparks at Penmaenpool might cause objections but in terms of risk, it wouldn't be a 6 minute frequency tramway so those objections could be managed, and it would at least offer Dolgellau some form of rail based service and probably raise it's profile in being an innovative way of connecting smaller communities to nearby rail services.

[Robert Shrives]

19 hours ago, Ben B said:

 

I'd hate to be putting up with the replacement buses... about 2005 me and a friend travelled from Wolvo to Barmouth, at Mach the train stopped, the engine switched off.  After a few minutes the conductor mentioned, practically in passing, that the train was terminating there due to a driver shortage and we'd have to continue on the rail-replacement bus.  It turned out to be a rather old minibus, which crawled up to Fairborne, then went inland to Dolgellau before getting back to Barmouth.  I remember we were very annoyed, we'd only gone up to Barmouth for the day but we didn't hit the beach until about 1pm, giving us all of three hours before we needed to come back.

 

It did make me wonder if at some point the Department for Transport would decide that Barmouth Bridge was beyond saving (rather like they did with the toll bridge near Penrhyn), and build a combined road/rail crossing on the estuary, some monstrous great concrete flyover.  At least they're doing a mending job on it now, hopefully there'll be an improvement in services at some point, though it doesn't sound like it with the modern suburban-format stock coming.

 

Some, well many years ago  I recall a story about looking at creating a bridge so expensive it was cheaper to close the line. A concrete monster was part planned but as it was not possible to give foundations on rock it would sink and fail, the Wooden piles just stick in the mud and deflect when a train passes over but light enough to come back up afterwards.  What is interesting is that the timbers for the track used to sit on cross planking, so if these baulks and rail removed a very wide foot path would have resulted, perhaps the original designers were covering all bases if the line failed financially and was removed. Not sure how it worked with the swing section or was it a drawbridge type hole before?    At least the work is being done to give it a long life.   

[corneliuslundie]

The original bridge was indeed a drawbridge.

Jonathan

[NCB]

If Beeching had had his way then the bridge would probably have gone. Before the previous round of repairs, 1980s I think, closing the bridge was mooted. In this day and age I doubt if they could get away with it.

 

Nothing wrong with wooden bridges. Flexibility can be an advantage. The West Highland line was built on floating brushwood over the bogs of Rannoch Moor. Think the Cambrian did similar over Fenn's Moss.

 

Nigel

[Michael Hodgson]

On 25/12/2021 at 21:22, wombatofludham said:

The other thing to consider is whether the ERTMS has the flexibility to allow a train to terminate somewhere like Fairbourne, or even Tywyn which at least has a loop.  I'm sure I was told that the system logic only allows certain places to become terminating places, although I'm sure others will be able to explain.

I have no idea whether or not such flexibility exists.  However it is lousy system design if it lacks the ability to redefine sections (under properly controlled authority exercised in the right circumstances) to facilitate introduction of emergency working when necessary.

[big jim]

39 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I have no idea whether or not such flexibility exists.  However it is lousy system design if it lacks the ability to redefine sections (under properly controlled authority exercised in the right circumstances) to facilitate introduction of emergency working when necessary.

personally I think it’s a very poor system for the line in question, might be ok for passenger trains but having worked the Cambrian under RETB and ERTMS other than the advantage of better communications with the GSM-R radio compared to the old NRN the new system has removed a lot of flexibility from both basic day to day train movements and when degraded working is required

 

most of my work down there was possession work which is classed as degraded working and quite simply its a ball ache with ERTMS as something that could take 10 mins to do under RETB takes 5 times as long with ERTMS!

 

one example was in Machynlleth where we took a train of 10 auto hoppers top and tailed with 97s into the tank road and the signalling for whatever reason wouldn’t clear the route or give us a movement authority to get back out as we’d switched locos and the system didn’t know where the ‘new’ loco was, we eventually managed to get out of there with a hand written movement authority from the box after about 45 minutes! 

 

 

 

[wombatofludham]

I remember reading the presentation from an Arriva trains manager to some organisation about ERTMS and they didn't mince their words about how useless it was.  I've worked in local authorities and passenger transport executives and made multiple presentations over the years and the unwritten rule is generally to make critical comments polite, professional and balanced.  Their speaker was none of those, and basically accused Railtrack of having bounced them into accepting an over specified, under developed system which impacted on their business and caused them significant performance disbenefits.  Having had the misfortune to have had to deal with Ansaldo, who designed the system on the Cambrian, I could empathise with the speaker.

The problem is the system is now virtually obsolete and unique, and the recent safety critical failure to update TSR information when the system rebooted from the backup files appears to have highlighted this issue.