ER, SR, WR........why LMR?

[Halvarras]

The full question would be, "Eastern Region, Southern Region, Western Region........why London Midland Region, when the other three also had at least one terminus in London?

 

Did the BRB's headquarters being located in Marylebone Road have anything to do with it?

[LMS2968]

Simply devolved from what had gone before: London Midland and Scottish Railway; although its successor did not include Scotland, it did include London and the Midlands (but don't worry about northern England!). Neither the Great Western nor Southern Railways included the word 'London' in their titles, and while the London and North Eastern Railway did, it was split into two: the Eastern and North Eastern Regions.

[ikcdab]

It's a very good question.

The Western and the southern were just carved directly out of the GWR and SR. The names just carried across, apart from the "Great" bit being lost. 

The LMS was cut in two, with the Scottish portions being hived off. Hence all that was left was LMR. 

The anomaly is therefore the LNER. It also lost its Scottish bit, bit then what was left was carved up into the ER and the NER. So to be consistent, the ER should have been the LER, but that doesn't sound right and moves to far from the previous LNER.

Hence it was just ER.

Ian C

[Steamport Southport]

8 minutes ago, LMS2968 said:

Simply devolved from what had gone before: London Midland and Scottish Railway; although its successor did not include Scotland, it did include London and the Midlands (but don't worry about northern England!). Neither the Great Western nor Southern Railways included the word 'London' in their titles, and while the London and North Eastern Railway did, it was split into two: the Eastern and North Eastern Regions.

 

This.  But also consider the two main constituents of the LM(S).

 

London & North Western Railway and Midland Railway.

 

 

Also worth remembering that nationalisation was expected to be a short term measure. The Conservatives were very opposed to it and returning it back to it's pre war state was in their manifesto for years. It was the costs involved that prohibited it and the economy was not in the best of health.

 

That's why the regions were kept virtually as they were for quite a while. It was until later that they started reorganising things.

 

 

Jason

[Peter Kazmierczak]

But the LNER, a least the bit that became the ER, was largely the GC, GE and GN. Hence Central, Eastern, Northern Region would be way OTT...

[Andy Kirkham]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

But also consider the two main constituents of the LM(S).

 

London & North Western Railway and Midland Railway.

 

 

Yes, the most geographically accurate name would have been the North Western Region, but that would hardly have been appreciated in Derby. Besides, Sodor nabbed that name first.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

But also consider the two main constituents of the LM(S).

 

London & North Western Railway and Midland Railway.

 

The S of LMS was incorporated into the Scottish Region, leaving the LM in England and Wales.

 

Also, the region was divided into Divisions: Western (the old LNWR); Midland; and Central (the ex-L&Y, which had been amalgamated with the LNWR a year ahead of the grouping). 

 

The North Eastern Region was the only region that corresponded to one of the pre-grouping companies - but even that included the Hull & Barnsley, which the NER had taken over a year ahead of grouping.

 

One could argue that the Eastern Region should have been called the Great Region, since it comprised the Great Central, Great Eastern, and Great Northern!

 

(All with the caveat of regional boundary changes but at least that's how it started out at 1 January 1948, I believe.)

Edited September 11, 2021 by Compound2632

[rodent279]

Wasn't there all Anglia region as well? I mean before the one created in 1986/7?

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Wasn't there all Anglia region as well? I mean before the one created in 1986/7?

 

Just the six regions already mentioned - E, LM, NE, Sc, S, W.

 

If you look in an ABC from the 50s, the shed codes are listed under the headings of those six regions but the locomotives themselves only under the headings E, LM, S, W, plus BR Standard Locomotives. The independent locomotive history of the North Eastern Railway and the Scottish companies had been subsumed into that of the LMS and LNER.

 

Now there's another point - why did the LMS drop the "R" whilst the LNER kept it, in their liveries and publicity material etc.?

Edited September 11, 2021 by Compound2632

[LMS2968]

33 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

One could argue that the Eastern Region should have been called the Great Region, since it comprised the Great Central, Great Eastern, and Great Northern!

You're pushing your luck there, mate. The Swindonians will be after you!

[IWCR]

THe various companies used the cardinal directions,  ie "Southern",  "Western",  "Eastern"  icorporating "London" into the regions names could mislead some thinking it was just covering an area of London itself.  The LMS used the names of regions, no risk of any misunderstanding here retaing the London part of the name.

 

Pete

[RichardT]

Suspect that it was originally intended to be “Midland Region” but the over-preponderance of ex-LNWR staff in the new BR senior ranks scuppered that idea! See also Riddles’ games to get LNWR black adopted as the standard BR loco livery regardless of the supposedly-neutral inter-regional livery comparison trials.

 

My dad (who worked for the LNER and then BR from 1944-48 before his call-up) told me that the general mood in York after nationalisation was that, under BR, “if it was LMS it was adopted, if it was LNER it was abolished.” But they were pleased to be in the NER again…

 

(The ex-GWR, of course, just ignored it all for as long as it could!)

 

RT

Edited September 12, 2021 by RichardT
Clarity

[Kris]

Placing tongue firmly in cheek. 

 

LMR had to have London attached to make the midland region feel more important. All the other regions realised they were important enough in their own right. 

 

Time to remove tongue from cheek and run for the door. 

[ikks]

My great aunt Mary, who is long gone, she passed when I was 20 and I am almost 75, was an employee of the MR, LMS and the LMR but always referred to "her" railway as the "LM and S", lovely lady, took me all over the system using her privileged tickets.  One my great regrets is I managed to lose an enamelled badge presented to her and I assume the rest of the employees at that time depicting 6220 after the Coronation Scot run.

Mike

 

 

tickets

[rodent279]

Strictly speaking, it would make sense, to me at least, given that the ER ran along the eastern side of the country, if the LMR had been the Western Region, & the WR had become the South Western region.

[The Johnster]

The odd one out to my mind was the Scottish; the others at least approximated to the previous big four group companies, but the Scottish started at the Royal Border and Solway bridges.  It was of course the most sensibly and accurately named! 
 

If you are going to have regions, then the borders have to be put somewhere, and as the previous companies invaded each others’ ‘territory’, anomalies are inevitable.  

[Compound2632]

56 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Strictly speaking, it would make sense, to me at least, given that the ER ran along the eastern side of the country, if the LMR had been the Western Region, & the WR had become the South Western region.

 

But you have to remember that the senior management in 1948 had mostly started their careers well before 1923, so the old company names were second nature to them. 

 

53 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

The odd one out to my mind was the Scottish; the others at least approximated to the previous big four group companies, but the Scottish started at the Royal Border and Solway bridges.  It was of course the most sensibly and accurately named!

 

Conditions were different in Scotland - before the grouping, rates of pay had been lower. I'm not sure if this had changed during the grouping.

[pH]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

The odd one out to my mind was the Scottish; the others at least approximated to the previous big four group companies, but the Scottish started at the Royal Border and Solway bridges. 

The Waverley Route also crossed the border - apparently three times! Which raises the (academic) question: where did the responsibility for the route transfer between the two regions - at the final northbound crossing of the border, at the final southbound crossing, or at each crossing?

 

It’s been flagged as a possible complication if the line is ever re-opened to Carlisle:

 

https://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/historic-border-anomaly-poses-intriguing-new-twist-re-opening-edinburgh-carlisle-rail-line-3027524?amp

 

Apparently the North British kept quiet about it when they built the line.

[Compound2632]

18 minutes ago, pH said:

The Waverley Route also crossed the border - apparently three times! Which raises the (academic) question: where did the responsibility for the route transfer between the two regions - at the final northbound crossing of the border, at the final southbound crossing, or at each crossing?

 

Presumably the Scottish Region began at the Caledonian & Joint Line Junction on the passenger lines and Canal Junction on the goods lines:

 

[Halvarras]

Thank you all so much for your thought-provoking replies!

 

5 hours ago, IWCR said:

THe various companies used the cardinal directions,  ie "Southern",  "Western",  "Eastern"  icorporating "London" into the regions names could mislead some thinking it was just covering an area of London itself.  The LMS used the names of regions, no risk of any misunderstanding here retaing the London part of the name.

 

Pete

 

4 hours ago, RichardT said:

Suspect that it was originally intended to be “Midland Region” but the over-preponderance of ex-LNWR staff in the new BR senior ranks scuppered that idea! See also Riddles’ games to get LNWR black adopted as the standard BR loco livery regardless of the supposedly-neutral inter-regional livery comparison trials.

 

My dad (who was working for the LNER in 1948) told me that the general mood in York was that, under BR, “if it was LMS it was adopted, if it was LNER it was abolished.” But they were pleased to be in the NER again…

 

 

I'm inclined to think that the reason may lie in a combination of the above - the ex-LNWR senior staff gang throwing their weight around to 'big up' the "Midland Region" and the absence of geographical confusion permitting the adding of "London" to achieve that aim!

 

4 hours ago, RichardT said:

 

(The ex-GWR, of course, just ignored it all for as long as it could!)

 

RT

 

Didn't it just! - bolstered no doubt by not having to lift a finger while the other Regions rushed about adding an extra digit to every locomotive number, which must have engendered a level of smugness (although they still had to attach smokebox door number plates like everyone else......hmmm, weren't they an LMS invention?!)

[Compound2632]

All a little fanciful, I fear.

 

Smokebox door numberplates where a Midland invention which Crewe was vey slow to take up in LMS days - many ex-LNWR engines didn't get them.

[pH]

29 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Presumably the Scottish Region began at the Caledonian & Joint Line Junction on the passenger lines and Canal Junction on the goods lines

These are genuine questions, so please don’t think I’m being awkward. You’ve raised an interesting point. By ‘responsibility’ I meant ‘who maintained the track etc.’.  If what you proposed was true, would the Scottish Region maintain tracks south to that point? I know that, for example, Kingmoor was a ‘Scottish’ shed  (68A) for many years after nationalisation, but was that only administrationally, and the infrastructure was LMR?

 

Would pre-grouping limits still matter, when the respective lines had been part of the same company for the 25 years since grouping? What about the ex-NBR lines in Northumberland? Were they ScR or NER?

 

(As an aside, I had forgotten that there were a couple of other lines that crossed the border, at Carham and Deadwater.)

 

Edit to add: and the ex-NBR lines in Cumberland - ScR or LMR?

Edited September 11, 2021 by pH

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, pH said:

These are genuine questions, so please don’t think I’m being awkward.

 

Not at all. I hope someone who knows will be along to give chapter and verse but my gut feeling is that pre-grouping boundaries died hard. Certainly, visually, the railway scene in 1948 was still dominated by its pre-grouping heritage. 

[The Johnster]

Absoulutely.  We tend to have loco-centric thought processes and consider that the use of, for example, A3s on the Settle and Carlisle or the Great Central in BR days indicates a change in the way that a particular section of railway is operated and managed, when often it really didn't for many, many years. Grouping and nationalisation may have made differences to superficial and unimportant details like locomotives, stock, liveries, the colour the signs on the stations were painted, and staff uniforms, which are really almost irrelevant to the working of the trains.  They are the very things that concern us most as modellers and enthusiasts, though!

 

When I worked for BR as a guard at Canton in the 70s, the daily fish train from Milford Haven to Paddington arrived at Canton Sidings at about 18.30, dropped off traffic in the transhipment shed and picked up the empties left after yesterday's unloading, and changed locomotives.  There seemed to be no reason why the locos needed changing, and when I asked why I was told that the loco that brought the train up from Milford Haven had to be re-coaled and have it's fire cleaned, this being about a decade after the job had ceased to be a Castle diagram and the locos were either Westerns or 47s.  Apparently, the train had run to the same timings and changed locos at Canton for over a century, going back to broad gauge South Wales Railway days, and nobody had ever seen any need to change the working. 

[Halvarras]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

All a little fanciful, I fear.

 

Smokebox door numberplates where a Midland invention which Crewe was vey slow to take up in LMS days - many ex-LNWR engines didn't get them.

 

Good point about the Midland, now I think about it. I wasn't especially aware of Crewe's tardiness but I did notice that the ex-LNWR 0-8-0 tender locos (e.g. G2a) didn't even get them in BR days, which seems to have been very unusual. Perhaps there was something about the design of the smokebox door.............but I've stepped outside my comfort zone now, never mind the original topic, so serves me right!