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Colliery operations, gradients and propelling


TomJ
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I’ve been looking at some plans for colliery layouts, including Paul Lunn’s one in the recent Model Rail

I’ve got a few questions about how the internal networks were operated by the NCB. I know that the rules were ‘different’ to BR and that brake vans were a rarity 

 

Would wagons be propelled through the screens? I’m imaging that locos wouldn’t be allowed through - is this correct?


So leading on from this - on the plan you’d have to propel a train down the gradient, trucks first. And pull up the loaded ones behind the loco. Were there rules about locos having to be at the bottom when on a gradient (to prevent runaways) or could you get away with it? It seems brake abs weren’t used despite lose coupled wagons. 

 

If the plan needs wagons pushing through the screens AND the loco at the lower end of the gradient then I need a rethink!

 

 Thanks 

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1 minute ago, TomJ said:

I’ve been looking at some plans for colliery layouts, including Paul Lunn’s one in the recent Model Rail

I’ve got a few questions about how the internal networks were operated by the NCB. I know that the rules were ‘different’ to BR and that brake vans were a rarity 

 

Would wagons be propelled through the screens? I’m imaging that locos wouldn’t be allowed through - is this correct?


So leading on from this - on the plan you’d have to propel a train down the gradient, trucks first. And pull up the loaded ones behind the loco. Were there rules about locos having to be at the bottom when on a gradient (to prevent runaways) or could you get away with it? It seems brake abs weren’t used despite lose coupled wagons. 

 

If the plan needs wagons pushing through the screens AND the loco at the lower end of the gradient then I need a rethink!

 

 Thanks 

Most of the screens I saw were on loops, rather than dead-end sidings, with a slight gradient from the empty wagon  sidings, through the screens to the loaded sidings. Working under the screen would be by pinch-bar (to get the wagons moving) and gravity. Every so often, a loco would take the empties from the Reception sidings; after leaving them in the Empties sidings, it would head around the 'loaded' sidings, collect a load of 'fulls', and take them to the Departure sidings.

Clearances under the screens were minimal; many screens around South Wales (and probably elsewhere) were too low to accept anything taller than a 21t mineral. My father's firm modified quite a few to accommodate 21t hoppers when the House Coal Concentration programme started.  I was lucky enough to spend weekends and school holidays visiting various pits in the anthracite field; Onllwyn, Abernant and Wernos come to mind.

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Locos were rarely allowed under screens, operation was normally by gravity but this doesn't work very well in a small scale model. On my colliery layout (Cwmafon) the empties are hauled up past the screens and propelled underneath to be loaded, another loco takes the fulls off at the other end. Brake vans were a rarity on colliery systems, only a few ever used them.

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The NCB 'didn't like' locos travelling under the screens as, being taller than wagons, there was always the possibility of the loco striking the screen loading chutes which in many pits were adjustable.

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However, that didn't preclude locos running beneath the screens at certain pits, eg at Marine Colliery, Cwm 'Menelaus' occasionally ran about under the screens.

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The preferred method was for the 'empties' sidings to be at a higher level and for the empties to be run by gravity over the 'empties weighbridge' then under the screens beneath which the roads were still on a slight falling gradient.

Once loaded, the wagons were run out by gravity across the loaded weighbridge, weighed and then run  into the 'full' roads and formed into trainloads.

The simplest version of this system I know of was at Northern United colliery in the Forest of Dean, which managed without a loco of its own.

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This was the most cost-effective means of loading wagons, but was by no means unique.

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here in South Wales I cannot recall the use of NCB brake vans; whereas in some places  'up north' they were common around Wearside/Tyneside where NCB trains ran on BR metals to reach loading staithes.

Littleton Colliery (Staffs) also employed brake vans, as did the WPR (Wemyss Private Railway) in Fife.

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I don't believe there were any hard and fast rules as to whether locos were at the front or rear where tackling gradients, as many coal board lines were operated primarily out of expediency, whatever the crews found to be the easiest and quickest.

eg

There was a long, continuous drag from Pontardulais up to Graig Merthyr, but the locos always pulled the empties up to the mine (it was a drift)

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From experience, I suspect "Rule No.1" could apply to most NCB based layouts.

Edited by br2975
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TTBOMK there were no NCB brake van workings in South Wales, as there were no places where NCB working passed over BR tracks as there were in the North East of England.  In the North East of England there were vacuum fitted NCB locos hauling NCB passenger stock fitted with vacuum brakes over BR tracks; the locos had to be licensed to do this and the drivers and guards passed out on BR rules and regulations and with the appropriate route knowledge. 

 

But we are discussing working internally on NCB systems.  The collieries' track layouts were variations on a theme as already described but to suit the actual locations (I am more familiar with South Wales practice than elsewhere), but by and large the theme was a exchange road reception siding(s) where the mts arrived, the BR loco and brake van were uncoupled, and a colliery loco then hauled or propelled the mts to storage sidings at a higher level.  They were then dropped through the screens, which almost always had through roads, either by gravity, or on cables, or by loco, propelling with 'spacer' wagons so that they could be positioned correctly under the screen feed hoppers.  They were controlled with the handbrake levers by shunters (some pits called them 'latchers') on the ground.  A raft of wagons being hauled uphill or propelled downhill would have brakes pinned down at the downhill end

 

Once loaded, a colliery loco would couple to a raft of loaded wagons at the 'bottom' end of the screens without entering the building and make up a train of lds to haul or propel to the exchange/departure siding(s) where the BR loco would position the brake van and couple to the front of the train ready for getting the road back out on to the main line.  The exchange siding(s) are on NCB property, through a fence and a gate, and there will be somewhere a 'BR (I've seen the wording 'Railway Executive') engines must not pass this notice' board indicating the limit to which the BR loco is allowed to penetrate the NCB internal system.  

 

Overlaying this basic method of operation, in NCB days (and sometimes earlier in places like Maesteg/Nantyfyllon where the same company owned several adjacent collieries) some places had central washeries serving several collieries, which were fed by either BR or NCB internal user wagons from the collieries served.  In later years this practice was curtailed as increased BR charges made it more cost effective for NCB pits connected underground to move the coal to a single central shaft close to the washery to raise it. 

 

The coal, once raised to the pithead, was taken in the drams it had been loaded into underground to the screens, where the spoil was removed and usually put into the overhead cable buckets to be tipped on the mountainside or top, and the coal screened and graded for size.  It was then often, but not always, taken to the washery to be loaded into the outgoing BR wagons by conveyor belt, but there were places were internal NCB 7-plank wagons were used and unloaded by tippler to be conveyor belted to the first floor level of the washery for overhead hopper loading into the BR wagons.  The coal was washed to minimise the dust coming off the wagons, and the washery outfall into the nearby river caused severe pollution. 

 

Somewhere between the reception sidings and the washery, the mt wagons would pass over a weighbridge, and the lds would also be weighed between the washery and the departure roads, this being the basis of invoicing the customers.  Weighbride roads were also double ended, as the locomotives did not pass over the weighbridges.

 

Passenger workings on NCB systems were called 'paddy' trains, and accommodation varied from old main line bogie coaches to the ex-GW vans with doors removed on one side and wooden benches fitted around the ends and sides used on the Talywaun-Blaenserchan service, propelled up a steep bank on a shelf cut in the mountainside.   These are not to be confused with BR's workmen's trains, which were worked to full passenger carrying regulations involving vacuum brakes, continuity tests, and facing point locks.  A common feature was that the upholstery was removed and the seats, in the form of plain wooden benches, could be hosed clean; this was before the NCB had completed it's promise to provide pithead baths at all collieries, which took about 10 years to achieve after 1947.  There would often be set 'clean' compartments which retained the upholstery for office staff.

 

These trains inevitably tended to feature older stock, and the Glyncorrwg miners' train in particular was famous for featuring, in succession, the last GW 4-wheelers in service until 1953, then the last GW clerestories in service until 1958, followed by the last GW Metropolitan and City compartment suburban stock, until 1960, by which time the pithead baths at North Rhondda had been completed and a daily bus was provided instead.  North Rhondda (named for the seam worked, and not in the Rhondda valley) was in very remote country at the head of the Corrwg Valley, and was entirely worked by BR locomotives (8750s), which propelled the trains for several miles up the very steep gradients north of Glyncorrwg station as there were no run around facilities past there.

 

South Wales was home to 'incline working', the method of pulling heavily loaded unbraked trains down steep banks with relatively small locomotives by pinning down sufficient handbrake levers for the loco to have to pull the train down the bank under control and light steam (places where loaded trains had to be hauled up banks were rare, so 0-6-2 tanks powerful enough to haul the mts to the collieries were all that was needed, as the handbrakes controlled the ld trains on the downhill runs, and similar methods were used to control wagons in the environments of the colliery sidings which could feature some very steep pitches! 

 

 

Edited by The Johnster
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4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

TTBOMK there were no NCB brake van workings in South Wales, as there were no places where NCB working passed over BR tracks as there were in the North East of England.  In the North East of England there were vacuum fitted NCB locos hauling NCB passenger stock fitted with vacuum brakes over BR tracks; the locos had to be licensed to do this and the drivers and guards passed out on BR rules and regulations and with the appropriate route knowledge. 

 

Only partly correct JW.

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There were many NCB locomotives in South Wales that were required to be  'registered' by the BTC  in order to permit their use on B.R. metals;

(admittedly, mostly over over short distances, but....)

These included 

Aberamman at least 6 locos,

Mountain Ash, at least 5locos

Talywain & Blaenserchan

Tredegar

Celynen South

Hafodyrynys,

Blaenavon,

Maesteg, 

Duffryn Rhondda,

Newlands,

Treorchy,

Gelli,

Windsor (Abertridwr),

Morlais,

Wern Tarw,

Bargoed, 

Garw (Blaengarw),

Coed Ely,

G-C-G (Opencast Executive),

To name but a few.

 

Edited by br2975
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4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 Somewhere between the reception sidings and the washery, the mt wagons would pass over a weighbridge, and the lds would also be weighed between the washery and the departure roads, this being the basis of invoicing the customers.  Weighbride roads were also double ended, as the locomotives did not pass over the weighbridges.

Most, but again, not all weighbridges had twin tracks passing in front of the weighbridge office/hut/bothy.

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The "live" rails ran across the weighbridge plate, and were used for weighing wagons.

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The 'dead' rails avoided the plate (in a way) and allowed traffic to pass without traversing or damaging the weighbridge plate etc.

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However, there were many places where locos could cross the weighbridge, but at a very slow speed, usually walking pace, e.g. Merthyr Vale, Aberfan, usually with speed restriction notices prominently displayed.

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16 hours ago, br2975 said:

Only partly correct JW.

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There were many NCB locomotives in South Wales that were required to be  'registered' by the BTC  in order to permit their use on B.R. metals;

(admittedly, mostly over over short distances, but....)

These included 

Aberamman at least 6 locos,

Mountain Ash, at least 5locos

Talywain & Blaenserchan

Tredegar

Celynen South

Hafodyrynys,

Blaenavon,

Maesteg, 

Duffryn Rhondda,

Newlands,

Treorchy,

Gelli,

Windsor (Abertridwr),

Morlais,

Wern Tarw,

Bargoed, 

Garw (Blaengarw),

Coed Ely,

G-C-G (Opencast Executive),

To name but a few.

 

What sort of movements were involved, Brian?  IIRC, at Talywaun the NCB locos ran into BR exchange sidings but not on running lines, and a similar situation seemed to be the case at Black Rock for Merthyr Vale colliery.  Did NCB locos in South Wales venture on to BR running lines, and did their drivers need to be passed out on rules and regs, and sign road knowledge?  I believe NCB locos at Maesteg crossed the Llynfi branch on the level, but of course they had an alternative in the form of the PTR bridge.  At Coed Ely the NCB loco worked down the section of the Penygraig branch between their outlet points and the top end of Llantrisant yard, but I am not sure who owned this track at this time (1963-1970).  It was, IIRC, worked as a long siding. 

 

I operate Cwmdimbath, which has the exhange road as a kick back of the platform road, on the possibly incorrect assumption that the colliery loco cannot proceed beyond the ground disc signal controlling the exit from the exchange road, and that the BR loco cannot penetrate on to NCB track beyond the stop board under the road overbridge (it actually never needs to go that far, only as far as is needed to clear inside and clear the turnout for the NCB loco spur, onto which it is also not permitted.  The colliery loca is not, therefore, allowed to couple to a train of mts that is standing in the platform road and draw that train on to NCB property; the BR loco must set the train back on to the exchange road.  Have I got this wrong?  Assuming the colliery loco to be registered, can it propel loaded wagons on to the BR platform road running line?  Can the train 'straddle' the boundary, with the BR loco setting back until the leading wagon can be coupled to the colliery loco without the colliery loco venturing on to BR or the BR loco venturing on to NCB tracks? 

 

What happens when, as sometimes occurred in real life, a BR loco is hired to cover for a failed colliery loco?  I have assumed that it is delivered to the colliery by a BR crew, performs it's NCB work with the NCB crew, and is collected at the end of the hire by a BR crew, but is there a specific point and location at which the handover takes places, or are things a little less formal?  But the NCB crew can presumably drive it on to BR running lines so long as they have passed out on rules and regulations and have the appropriate road knowledge.

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36 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

What sort of movements were involved, Brian?  IIRC, at Talywaun the NCB locos ran into BR exchange sidings but not on running lines, and a similar situation seemed to be the case at Black Rock for Merthyr Vale colliery.  Did NCB locos in South Wales venture on to BR running lines, and did their drivers need to be passed out on rules and regs, and sign road knowledge?  I believe NCB locos at Maesteg crossed the Llynfi branch on the level, but of course they had an alternative in the form of the PTR bridge.  At Coed Ely the NCB loco worked down the section of the Penygraig branch between their outlet points and the top end of Llantrisant yard, but I am not sure who owned this track at this time (1963-1970).  It was, IIRC, worked as a long siding. 

 

I operate Cwmdimbath, which has the exhange road as a kick back of the platform road, on the possibly incorrect assumption that the colliery loco cannot proceed beyond the ground disc signal controlling the exit from the exchange road, and that the BR loco cannot penetrate on to NCB track beyond the stop board under the road overbridge (it actually never needs to go that far, only as far as is needed to clear inside and clear the turnout for the NCB loco spur, onto which it is also not permitted.  The colliery loca is not, therefore, allowed to couple to a train of mts that is standing in the platform road and draw that train on to NCB property; the BR loco must set the train back on to the exchange road.  Have I got this wrong?  Assuming the colliery loco to be registered, can it propel loaded wagons on to the BR platform road running line?  Can the train 'straddle' the boundary, with the BR loco setting back until the leading wagon can be coupled to the colliery loco without the colliery loco venturing on to BR or the BR loco venturing on to NCB tracks? 

 

What happens when, as sometimes occurred in real life, a BR loco is hired to cover for a failed colliery loco?  I have assumed that it is delivered to the colliery by a BR crew, performs it's NCB work with the NCB crew, and is collected at the end of the hire by a BR crew, but is there a specific point and location at which the handover takes places, or are things a little less formal?  But the NCB crew can presumably drive it on to BR running lines so long as they have passed out on rules and regulations and have the appropriate road knowledge.

 

I suspect John, there would have been different operating conditions at different locations

e.g.

At Talywain, the exchange sidings were B.R. (ex-LNWR) owned and maintained, and generally the NCB loco and the BR loco (usually Class 37, but later Cl.25 and I've seen photos of a Hymek) were in the sidings at the same time, in later years, mid morning as I recall.

I suspect this require certain operational niceties, hence the need for 'registration'

At Mountain Ash, the NCB locos worked into the BR owned exchange siding that was once the down platform at Mountain Ash (Oxford Street) station.

Aberamman and Mountain Ash were seperate systems until BR sold the former VoN section from Aberdare to Mountain Ash (Cardiff Road) to the NCB, giving the coal board a system that stretched from Penrhixceiber to Aberamman via Mount and Abercwmoi......where both BR and NCB locos shared the exchange sidings.

Mardy Colliery, at Mardy was similar, where the NCB locos mixed it with the BR locos in the exchange sidings.

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I have no knowledge of NCB drivers and locos (regularly) operating on BR 'running lines' only exchange sidings.

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The registration details / restrictions varied for each loco, the preceding GWR system had been much more specific (typical of the GWR ?)

e.g.

"Llantarnam Abbey" AB 2074/1939 was initially registered by the GWR as 250/1944 and its conditions were:-  "Powell Duffryn Collieries Co. - Penrikyber Colliery and Goods Yard"

Similarly

"Jessie" (of your and my younger days) Hunslet 1873/1937 or Guest Keen No.18 was registered by the GWR as 247/1944 and restricted to:-  "Guest Keen Baldwin Iron & Steel Ltd. Cardiff - Dowlais Works & Foreshore via North East Junction, Roath Dock, Cardiff"

Or

The Peckett at the Birchgrove (or as you and I  would more likely refer to it, Llanishen) ROF  was restricted to " R.O.F. Birchgrove - To work down line sidings Birchgrove"

.

As for the NCB hiring BR locos, which was very common in later years, when BR had a surfeit of '350' shunters in South Wales; they would be delivered to the colliery exchange sidings; invariably by a Cl.37, where the NCB staff took over - presumably after some tuition, involving pumping / priming the fuel etc.

I concur with your view that things would be 'a little less formal; but I doubt the NCB chaps would be allowed out for a 'jolly' on BR running lines just because they were driving a BR loco..

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The photo attached (provenance unknown) shows the exchange sidings at Mardy Colliery, Maerdy.

6992-Mardy Colliery-undated.jpg

Edited by br2975
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2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

 

I operate Cwmdimbath, which has the exhange road as a kick back of the platform road, on the possibly incorrect assumption that the colliery loco cannot proceed beyond the ground disc signal controlling the exit from the exchange road, and that the BR loco cannot penetrate on to NCB track beyond the stop board under the road overbridge (it actually never needs to go that far, only as far as is needed to clear inside and clear the turnout for the NCB loco spur, onto which it is also not permitted.  The colliery loca is not, therefore, allowed to couple to a train of mts that is standing in the platform road and draw that train on to NCB property; the BR loco must set the train back on to the exchange road.  Have I got this wrong?  Assuming the colliery loco to be registered, can it propel loaded wagons on to the BR platform road running line?  Can the train 'straddle' the boundary, with the BR loco setting back until the leading wagon can be coupled to the colliery loco without the colliery loco venturing on to BR or the BR loco venturing on to NCB tracks? 

 

 

We operate Cwmafon on much the same basis - with the added complication that Cwmafon Iron & Steel also use the same exchange yard.

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Thanks for that illumination, Brian; I am a little wiser on the matter now.  As it turns out, I reckon I am operating Cwmidmbath more or less 'correctly' in South Wales terms, but there seem to have been several slightly differing 'setups' in play in the area.  One might have BR owned and maintained exchange sidings, as at Talywaun, into which NCB locos ran (they would hardly be exchange sidings otherwise!), outside of the colliery track gate and fence.  One might have NCB owned and maintained exchange sidings into which BR locomotives ran, as at Merthyr Vale, inside of the colliery gate and fence.  One might have NCB locomotives operating on BR tracks that are no longer used by BR, and are closed as far as BR is concerned, as at Maesteg PTR, Coed Ely Penygraig Branch, and Mountain Ash/Aberaman on the GW Pontypool Road-Aberdare route.  In some cases, such track had been sold to the NCB, but in others I presume the NCB paid some sort of rental or fee to use it.

 

There were large internal NCB systems with several points of interface and exchange sidings with BR, which may have featured any of the above situations; as you say, it varied according to the situation.  Llanharan colliery on the SWML had a Hunslet 18" in the '70s and seemed to integrate with BR without fences or gates; the weighbridge was quite close to the SWML, and I would hesitate to state which roads belonged to who, but it seems reasonable to say that the washery roads were owned and maintained by the NCB.  BR serviced it with 37s from Margam which seemed to do as much of the shunting as the Hunslet.

 

At Blaengarw the NCB inherited a fairly complex system to the north of the terminus that had been previously owned by different companies, and a BR line penetrated to the very top of the valley several hundred yards north of, and perhaps 50 or so feet higher than, the passenger terminus station to access one of them by kickback. 

 

Private sidings, whether a few yards into a small factory loading dock or a large heavy industrial steelworks system with more track mileage than the main line branch serving it, are accessed by main line railways with a Private Siding Agreement, PSA, some of which dated back into the 19th century.  These set out the legalites and the terms on which the siding owner and the main line railway interfaced and exchanged with each other. 

 

As far as Cwmdimbath is concerned, I will keep the colliery locomotive on NCB territory, not permitted beyond the outlet ground signal.  If it were to be permitted on to BR metals, it would need to run over a passenger running line, admittedly only for a few yards, but I reckon the likelihood of this happening in the South Wales railway environment is pretty low.  I certainly can't think of an actual example of such a thing.  The BR locomotive will only set back on to the exchange road far enough for the leading wagon to clear the NCB loco spur where the W4 is waiting.

 

The GW's Tondu Valley's branches were about as basic as it got in terms of passenger and general merchandise facilites, provided on not much more than a light railway level, but light railways they were most certainly not, carrying heavy mineral traffic hauled by red route restriction locos.  They may not have looked it, but they were built and maintained to main line standards.  In all cases, passenger termini were simple single platforms with a waiting shelter and a run around loop, and TTBOMK Gilfach Goch never had any general merchandise goods facilities.  At Abergwynfi the goods shed was a kickback off the NCB system, which never had a loco and was shunted by the BR trip loco.  It all looked a bit like a light railway; imagine a Wisbech & Upwell terminus surrounded by colliery sidings on 3 out of 4 sides, and on all four by steep mountains...

 

 

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The private Melingriffith Railway also crossed the Taff Vale main line on the flat, all four tracks of it, near the site of the long gone Pentyrch station at Gelynos, between Radyr and Taff’s Well (didn’t know he’d been ill). 

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At this distance in time from the nationalisation of both pits and railways, it is easy to forget that most of the collieries were in existence before the NCB was formed.  The NCB and BR would have inherited existing arrangements, and these would not in general be changed without good reason.  Each colliery would have come to its own agreement with the local railway company - one of the Big Four if not its predecessors.  Wealthy colliery owners were often influential on the choice of the line's route and even the primary reason for construction in the first place.  Siding layouts, access points and colliery facilities would have gradually evolved over time as earlier seams became exhausted and the pits veered off in new directions searching for unexploited reserves.  Working practices would have suited practicalities given the local geography and issues associated with land ownership.  In the Valleys lines and sidings would have been largely constrained to follow the rivers, and you would put the buildings wherever seemed most convenient.   So in short, I don't think it's a case of one style fits all.

 

My mother used to talk of an uncle who was a "colliery owner" in Northumberland, and as a little girl she used to go and play there sometimes.  This wasn't quite as grand it sounded - her uncle wasn't Lord Percy.  What it amounted to was him and two other blokes worked a small adit  with hand tools.  They used tubs to bring the coal out and it was bagged up and loaded onto a horse drawn cart for sale locally - no rail connection.  It was evidently viable enough to support these three men for a good many years but it wasn't a big enough operation to be worth nationalising.

 

 

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There were two locations in Llanelli where there were flat crossings of the main line to Fishguard by the Nevill's Dock and Railway. One was at the western end of the station, where a line from the docks in the Seaside area gained access to various industries around the town centre. The other was at Old Castle Crossing, where the line served Llanelly Steel (later Duport), Llanelly Foundry, and Castle and Cille collieries, as well as my great-uncle's builder's yard. Both these crossings remained active into the mid-1960s, and ran in the streets south of the main line. The ND&R escaped both Grouping and Nationalisation, being owned by a consortium of local businesses.

There were another four flat crossings of the mainline between the Loughor Bridge and Llanelli station, and two more at Pembrey and Burry Port, but these were all absorbed at Grouping or before.

Briton Ferry went one further, with a narrow-gauge tramway connecting the various bits of steelworks and ancillary works, and crossing the SWML in the process. Operations seem to have continued into the 1960s. I have seen photos of some of the line, but not of any trains using it.

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3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Brian do you know anything about Cwmbach Crossing where what appears to have been a privately owned line crossed the GWR route on the flat?  Alas I haven't got the right TT Appendix for there.

Mike,

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"Cwmbach Crossing" was on the GWR Vale of Neath line, near Abercwmboi (just north west of the Phurnacite plant).

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It was where a twig off the  Taff Vale Railway's Cynon Valley line, known as the 'Cwmbach Branch'  crossed the GWR VoN on the level to access the (i) Aberdare & Plymouth Collieries (later High Duffryn Colliery), (ii) Werfa Colliery, (iii) Cwmbach, (iv) Cwmbach New, and (v) Upper Duffryn pits.

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Another flat crossing very close by allowed a further TVR twig off the Cwmbach Branch to access the (vi) Lletty Shenkin Upper Pit.

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The GWR 'Cwmbach Crossing' signal box was moved about 1910, and the flat crossings ceased to be used by 1943, having been replaced by connections off the VoN. .

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Does this help ?

.

Regards

 

Brian

Edited by br2975
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The basic principle of working the surface railway part of a colliery is usually a sequence as follows:-

 

.Main line train arrives at exchange sidings with train of empty (mt) wagons, and shunts to remove brake van. 

 

.Colliery loco (if there is one) or main line loco (if there isn't) hauls or propels mts over weighbridge where each one is individually weighed, then proceeds to reception sidings, often at a higher level than the washery.

 

.Wagons are moved, individually or in sets of 3 or 4, to the washery, entering it on the through roads from behind and positioned beneath the loading hoppers.  They are then loaded.  They may be propelled in to the washery by locomotive, dropped down on a cable, or run in by gravity, controlled by the handbrake levers.

 

.The now loaded wagons are collected by the loco from the front of the washery, and put over the weighbridge again, the load being noted against each wagon number and used as the basis of invoicing the customer.  The coal is wet, but allowance is made for this.

 

.The ld wagons are now taken to the exchange sidings, where the main line loco attaches the brake van (at some places this was done by gravity), couples to the front, the guard examines the train and gives the load slip to the driver, who then whistles up for the road.

 

It was important, especially in South Wales where the geography limited the amount of siding space on the valley floors, or collieries were situated on shelves cut in the mountainside, that lds were cleared from the washeries and a steady supply of mts was maintained in order to keep the men underground working and have room at the surface to deal with the coal they had won.  It had to be moved underground, in drams or by conveyor belt, to the shaft, often some distance, and raised to the surface, at which point it had to be screened for spoil and size, before being moved from the screens to the washery.  This movement could be by drams, conveyor belts, or by loading into internal wagons to be tipplered on to the washery's feed conveyer system. One colliery in the Rhondda Fach had to be cleared every 30 minutes 24/7 to be kept in production, though this was exceptional.

 

The actual layouts varied according to the site, the traffic, and the amount of money the owners were prepared to invest (as little as they thought they could get away with usually, mining is risky and speculative as business ventures go), so minimal facilities and a generally untidy environemnt were the norm, making them great places to model!  Large NCB systems such as Maesteg had central washeries fed from a number of pits, and a version of this appeared in the Garw valley as a central washery was built shortly before nationalisation at Wyndham colliery, fed by main line workings from the other pits in the valley.  In later years, by and large by the time the main line workings were dieselised, charges for this made it cheaper to conveyer belt the coal between the pits underground and raise it close to the central washery, as the pits had extensive workings that connected underground with each other. 

 

The sequence may vary in cases where there was enough room at the exchange sidings for the main line mts to arrive and attach loco and van to a train of lds waiting for them; we don't have space for this a Cwmdimbath... 

 

Some pits produced different types of coal (it's not just black rock, you know, different seams have different sulpher content, calorific value, or are more or less brittle or friable) and supply a variety of customers with different needs and uses for the coal.  So, the same pit may send product out in 7-planker/steel 16tonners, double door 21tonners, double door 24.5tonners (power station coal) or hoppers; the last two need more clearance at the washery hoppers, so in some places there were specific washery roads for this.  Cwmdimbath colliery produces household and steam coal, and if a hopper turns up it is loaded by mobile conveyor.  But at a big pit or at a central washery, trains of different types of coal in different types of wagons could be seen.

 

Where there were other facilities on the same site or connected by the same NCB system as the colliery, such as the coke ovens at Nantgarw or Abercomboi Phurnacite plant on the Mountain Ash system, required internal transfer workings between the facilities, which would further complicate the above general sequence, and a fleet of internal user wagons, typically XPO 7 plankers until the mid 80s, would be needed.

 

 

 

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On 13/09/2021 at 15:26, The Johnster said:

What sort of movements were involved, Brian?  IIRC, at Talywaun the NCB locos ran into BR exchange sidings but not on running lines, and a similar situation seemed to be the case at Black Rock for Merthyr Vale colliery.  Did NCB locos in South Wales venture on to BR running lines, and did their drivers need to be passed out on rules and regs, and sign road knowledge?  I believe NCB locos at Maesteg crossed the Llynfi branch on the level, but of course they had an alternative in the form of the PTR bridge.  At Coed Ely the NCB loco worked down the section of the Penygraig branch between their outlet points and the top end of Llantrisant yard, but I am not sure who owned this track at this time (1963-1970).  It was, IIRC, worked as a long siding. 

 

I operate Cwmdimbath, which has the exhange road as a kick back of the platform road, on the possibly incorrect assumption that the colliery loco cannot proceed beyond the ground disc signal controlling the exit from the exchange road, and that the BR loco cannot penetrate on to NCB track beyond the stop board under the road overbridge (it actually never needs to go that far, only as far as is needed to clear inside and clear the turnout for the NCB loco spur, onto which it is also not permitted.  The colliery loca is not, therefore, allowed to couple to a train of mts that is standing in the platform road and draw that train on to NCB property; the BR loco must set the train back on to the exchange road.  Have I got this wrong?  Assuming the colliery loco to be registered, can it propel loaded wagons on to the BR platform road running line?  Can the train 'straddle' the boundary, with the BR loco setting back until the leading wagon can be coupled to the colliery loco without the colliery loco venturing on to BR or the BR loco venturing on to NCB tracks? 

 

What happens when, as sometimes occurred in real life, a BR loco is hired to cover for a failed colliery loco?  I have assumed that it is delivered to the colliery by a BR crew, performs it's NCB work with the NCB crew, and is collected at the end of the hire by a BR crew, but is there a specific point and location at which the handover takes places, or are things a little less formal?  But the NCB crew can presumably drive it on to BR running lines so long as they have passed out on rules and regulations and have the appropriate road knowledge.

I'm not saying it never happened, but I have not heard of a colliery hiring in a loco from BR. (Stand back, duck and be prepared to learn!)

a) lack of suitable locomotives in the BR stock 

b) availability of suitable locomotives from other collieries in the area 

c) condition of colliery track.

My understanding is that there might have been a little flexibility in the boundaries of the exchange sidings and how far a colliery locomotive might stray up to the first signal box. There are many examples of adjacent collieries on a section of main line and no doubt local agreements for NCB stock to run between them during gaps in the timetable.

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, doilum said:

I'm not saying it never happened, but I have not heard of a colliery hiring in a loco from BR. (Stand back, duck and be prepared to learn!)

a) lack of suitable locomotives in the BR stock 

b) availability of suitable locomotives from other collieries in the area 

c) condition of colliery track.

My understanding is that there might have been a little flexibility in the boundaries of the exchange sidings and how far a colliery locomotive might stray up to the first signal box. There are many examples of adjacent collieries on a section of main line and no doubt local agreements for NCB stock to run between them during gaps in the timetable.

 

Take a look at the attached, which gives details of (just some) BR Class 08s hired out in South Wales circa 1979-1980

.

Brian R

 

South Wales shunter hirings.xls

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18 minutes ago, doilum said:

I was steam focused !

My crystal ball is on holiday, otherwise I would have known.

.

But the answer to your question would be the same, just different dates, locations and numbers.

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Two things to add to this discussion. In the book about the MGR coming into use, it states two things I find interesting.

 

1-The wagons would be used as a way of storing coal until needed, and the demurage charge would be disputed. The NCB was using BR wagons to store it`s coal to make up for days which would have seen production below target.

 

2-The was a example of a colliery hiring a BR loco and crew to shunt its sidings as it had a broken point, so needed a extra loco and crew. It was cheaper to hire the BR extra than repair the point. 

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On page 68 of John Hodge and Stuart Davis' book 'Railways and Industry in the Tondu Valleys, Ogmore, Garw, and Porthcawl Branches, the one with a 42xx arriving at Blaengarw on the cover, is a photograph of 850 class pannier 1923 'standing in' for Penllwyngwent (Ogmore Vale) colliery's regular loco (Hudswell Clarke 0-6-0ST works no. 618 of 1902 Antonia, photographed on the previous page). 

 

1923 is in a battered state, with the handrail missing behind the filler cap, knobs still in position and several 'dings' in the tank side (the right hand side is photographed in a front 3/4 view, photo credit to SLS) and in the dome.  The livery cannot be determined as the loco is filthy, but I would assume it to be GW.  The loco's works plate, which would normally be on the rh front splasher, is above the number plate.  She is very modellable, having a 57xx style enclosed cab which presumably leaks, as there is a tarpaulin sheet lashed around the rear roof corner, and H section spoked wheels with fishbelly coupling rods that must have been a later addition.  The bunker is flared but not extended.  The GW number plate is intact, on this side anyway, but there is no trace of numbers on the buffer beam, though they may be there under the muck.  There is no sign of a BR smokebox number plate or shedcode plate ever having been attached.  The photo date is given as June 1956, but the trees in the background and low hazy late morning sun suggest January...

 

AFAICT, this is not a locomotive owned by BR so probably not a hire.  BR Database has her withdrawn in July 1939 as 'condemned', but does not give any disposal details, yet here she is colliery shunting 17 years later at Ogmore Vale.  Sister 1966 was allox Tondu in 1930, but I can find no trace of 1923 there.  It would be interesting to find out 1923's history between being condemned in 1939, which in my head means dismantled at Swindon, and 1956, and to find out how much longer she lasted.

 

But it further illustrates that all sorts of things went on in South Wales, and that modelling main line locomotives shunting collieries is a perfectly plausible rule 1 activity, so long as credibility is not overstretched.  An 850 working in a colliery in 1956 shows how elastic credibility is in South Wales in the 50s!  I would have no hesitation in using my 2721, 2761 withdrawn from TDU in March 1950, to shunt Cwmdimbath colliery.

 

1923 as photographed oozes character, and is another possible future project.

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