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Thomas: a defense of the new concepts, a criticism of their implementation, and a ridicule of the new new version.


DK123GWR
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Thomas had a driver fireman and train guard. Here they are fishing out fish from his side tank one of which stuck in his clack valve !!!!!

The fish got there by filling his tank from the river when the water column didn't work.

 

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The proposed new versions of Thomas are pathetic to say the least.

 

Brit15

 

 

 

 

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Yong Bao is an actual official TTTE (or T&F) character, part of the series when Thomas went on a world tour and a number of overseas engines appeared in various countries.  They were pretty accurate to specific prototypes too so actually that wasn't a bad effort.

 

This new version is just an abomination clearly designed to kill off the franchise.

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57 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

Yong Bao is an actual official TTTE (or T&F) character, part of the series when Thomas went on a world tour and a number of overseas engines appeared in various countries.  They were pretty accurate to specific prototypes too so actually that wasn't a bad effort.

 

Probably a QJ: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Railways_QJ

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On 17/09/2021 at 18:46, 009 micro modeller said:

 

I seem to vaguely remember that the original computer-animated TTTE was almost indistinguishable from the older series filmed with models, which I think was the idea at the time (i.e. it wasn’t so much that they wanted a different style, more that it had become easier to do some CGI than have to build multiple variants and models of everything - was the original series also limited in how many sets they could have, a bit like studio-based sitcoms often are?).

 

 

This is very odd. They don’t look like American locos for a start. In other contexts people have been able to make the Britishness of various series a selling point for American audiences but I’m not sure that would work for a kids’ series.

 

I'm sure that there were at least one, probably two series where it was hybrid, with CGI faces and things on the model shots.  I can kind of see the point, cost-saving wise; easier to have a room with a dozen people using computers than a giant hangar full of model railway sets and loads of people racing around fixing miniatures (with specialist, higher-wage model makers and things).  I've always believed you can get a better level of realism using miniatures, but that's a personal thing (I had a housemate at Uni on an illustration/design course who worked with CGI, whereas I was stubbornly analogue and used miniatures for my photography projects).  Interestingly shows like the revival of "Red Dwarf" have gone back to using miniatures, with CGI enhancement for some effects and movement shots.

 

And yeah, I don't get the whole British/American thing.  Given how utterly unlike American engines the Thomas characters look (what would the nearest equivalent for Thomas be, a Porter side-tank or something similar?) you'd think they'd lean into it.  I'm give to understand that some British kids TV is popular in America, the revived "Dangermouse" for example, so you'd think the accent/setting thing wouldn't be a problem.  Mindyou they even re-dub Clangers with William Shatner replacing Michael Palin for American broadcasts, so maybe the concern over the accents is more widespread.

 

Or perhaps it's simply that the US animators baulked at the idea of using US engines; whilst a 'wild west' 4-4-0 looks cute and characterful and small enough to not dominate the screen, maybe it's much harder to cartoonify some masive thirty-wheeled behemoth with tons of exposed plumbing, and make it look child-friendly...

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2 hours ago, Ben B said:

 

Mindyou they even re-dub Clangers with William Shatner replacing Michael Palin for American broadcasts,

 

Now, that reminds me of a short story I wrote many years ago about the crew of a certain Starship beaming down onto a planet inhabited by pink mouse-shaped creatures..... ;-)

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Wilbert Awdry's original books were written while there was still active steam on BR or shortly afterwards. At the time it was still just about plausible that there should be a part of the British Isles where the railways were mostly steam operated; any newly introduced steam engines had a plausible backstory about having been acquired from BR or having escaped.

 

Now that there is virtually no steam anywhere on the planet, the idea of a steam-worked Sodor is a pure fantasy, so to my mind there is no point in worrying about authenticity. 

 

I think we should treasure the originals and accept that the franchise now has a life of its own, and that any criticism of it is pointless.

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Mind you, if you look deeper into the Rev W Awdry's original stories, there are themes of Trade Unionism disputes, opponents to modernisation and a few other quite strong railway politics themes of the time!  For example Edward being described as having black wheels which is an adapted for a loco old insult for someone who works duties booked for someone who is on strike!!

 

Regards the CGI, I think it was series 13 where the models received CGI faces for the close up shots (the old physical faces were used for distance/background shots) and we got animated CGI moving people for the first time.  Series 14 went all CGI and it was steadily downhill from there.

 

Not all the model era locos made into CGI though, Molly and Murdoch vanished completely!!

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30 minutes ago, Andy Kirkham said:

Now that there is virtually no steam anywhere on the planet, the idea of a steam-worked Sodor is a pure fantasy, so to my mind there is no point in worrying about authenticity. 

 

Unless it's claimed to be intentionally set in the past, or is a kind of enormous preserved railway (the latter is sometimes slightly implied in the original stories iirc).

 

3 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

Mind you, if you look deeper into the Rev W Awdry's original stories, there are themes of Trade Unionism disputes, opponents to modernisation and a few other quite strong railway politics themes of the time!  For example Edward being described as having black wheels which is an adapted for a loco old insult for someone who works duties booked for someone who is on strike!!

 

There was quite a good, very original journal article reading it as a satire which somebody shared on RMWeb previously. I'm pretty sure there's a thread somewhere.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 19/09/2021 at 14:43, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Unless it's claimed to be intentionally set in the past, or is a kind of enormous preserved railway (the latter is sometimes slightly implied in the original stories iirc).

The books seemed to go with the idea that it was just a railway where steam had been retained. There is acknowledgement that steam has been abolished everywhere else and in the supplemental materials, it's suggested that the Fat Controller supplements the railway's income by manufacturing parts for heritage railways.

 

The TV series seems to be set in this kind of netherworld where it's permanently somewhere around the 1940s-1960s with occasional hints of earlier/later periods.

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21 minutes ago, HonestTom said:

The books seemed to go with the idea that it was just a railway where steam had been retained. There is acknowledgement that steam has been abolished everywhere else and in the supplemental materials, it's suggested that the Fat Controller supplements the railway's income by manufacturing parts for heritage railways.

 

The TV series seems to be set in this kind of netherworld where it's permanently somewhere around the 1940s-1960s with occasional hints of earlier/later periods.

 

When I suggested that it might be a heritage railway of sorts, what I was thinking of was the way in which some of the locos seem to have come from somewhere else on the mainland, having previously worked for a big four company or BR. Though this could just be a railway that buys second hand locos rather than a preserved one.

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On 19/09/2021 at 14:08, Andy Kirkham said:

Wilbert Awdry's original books were written while there was still active steam on BR or shortly afterwards. At the time it was still just about plausible that there should be a part of the British Isles where the railways were mostly steam operated; any newly introduced steam engines had a plausible backstory about having been acquired from BR or having escaped.

 

Now that there is virtually no steam anywhere on the planet, the idea of a steam-worked Sodor is a pure fantasy, so to my mind there is no point in worrying about authenticity. 

 

 

I've just realised something (which everyone else has probably already known for years)

 

In one of the early books, The Author comments that the railway has been Nationalised, but that the same engines still work the Region and that the Fat Director is now the Fat Controller.

 

I'd always assumed that this meant that Sodor had effectively become its own Region of British Railways. However BR is often referred to as 'The Other Railway', and I am now beginning to think that I may have misunderstood and the railways of Sodor were nationalised, not by the Attlee Government in Westminster, but by the Sudrian Government, in much the same way as the Isle of Man eventually nationalised its transport network.

 

As the Manx Government still operates a predominantly steam-hauled railway (along with the MER and SMR which use electric vehicles over 100 years old), I have no objection in principle to the Sudrian Government continuing to also operate a steam railway albeit on a larger scale. The main differences are the thoroughly non-standard nature of the Fat Controller's loco fleet, and that Sodor has apparently not gone through the same period of rationalisation that Man did with the loss of the Peel and Ramsay lines.

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The new Thomas' flexing smokebox and ability to jump in the air and turn 180 degrees will present a challenge for modellers especially fine scale modellers.  I assume the new characters operate under permissive block regulations as they follow one another down the track.

As regards age groups the 2010 generation has far more opportunity to see steam locomotives than the 1970 generation ever did, and only a very small proportion of children get to experience modern image train travel.  Its because cars operate a pay for one person take four (or six) more free while normal families simply can't afford rail fares.  We may be on the cusp of another upheaval as lemmings find they can work from home and the commuting nightmare of 13 hour days gives way to home based 9 hour days leaving trains half empty with only small numbers having to stand and the economics of rail passenger services implode, even as road transport becomes compromised by the ending of Diesel fuelled lorries and pressure increases for shorter range sub 100 mile passenger loading gauge freight flows increases. 

Meanwhile heritage trains run stuffed to the gunnals  with club 55 - dead club members.   Don't see many of them not buying Bachmann Thomas's for their great grand children simply because they look nothing like the ones on TV.  Rant Over. Back to my imaginary lines on Skye (the Island not the TV channel)

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11 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

 

I've just realised something (which everyone else has probably already known for years)

 

In one of the early books, The Author comments that the railway has been Nationalised, but that the same engines still work the Region and that the Fat Director is now the Fat Controller.

 

I'd always assumed that this meant that Sodor had effectively become its own Region of British Railways. However BR is often referred to as 'The Other Railway', and I am now beginning to think that I may have misunderstood and the railways of Sodor were nationalised, not by the Attlee Government in Westminster, but by the Sudrian Government, in much the same way as the Isle of Man eventually nationalised its transport network.

 

As the Manx Government still operates a predominantly steam-hauled railway (along with the MER and SMR which use electric vehicles over 100 years old), I have no objection in principle to the Sudrian Government continuing to also operate a steam railway albeit on a larger scale. The main differences are the thoroughly non-standard nature of the Fat Controller's loco fleet, and that Sodor has apparently not gone through the same period of rationalisation that Man did with the loss of the Peel and Ramsay lines.

According to 'The Island of Sodor: Its People, History and Railways' (a work of imaginary history that makes Tolkien look like a slouch), it was British Railways but retained a lot of its old identity. For instance, it's specified that while the standard gauge railway is officially the North Western Region, everyone knows it as the North Western Railway. The other lines are effectively heritage railways, although there is a certain amount of goods carried. I don't think it's ever been specified what happened after privatisation, although I do quite like the idea of it being taken over by the Sudrian government.

 

My headcanon is that to keep things economically viable, there are a lot more diesels than we see, but they never do anything interesting.

 

I can't believe I'm a grown adult trying to come up with economic justifications for Thomas the Tank Engine. I could have been doing something more grown-up. Like working out the mechanics of Star Trek spaceships.

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There is actually supposed to be a overhead electrified (Woodhead style 1500V DC possibly?) branch on Sodor with its own electric locos but it never actually gets mentioned or seen apart from a glimpse in the background of one of Christopher Awdry's later books (I think it is Henry one) which shows lines in the background with OHLE.

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4 hours ago, John M Upton said:

There is actually supposed to be a overhead electrified (Woodhead style 1500V DC possibly?) branch on Sodor with its own electric locos but it never actually gets mentioned or seen apart from a glimpse in the background of one of Christopher Awdry's later books (I think it is Henry one) which shows lines in the background with OHLE.

 

In-keeping with the slightly random, often ex-BR nature of the steam fleet, surely a 1500V line would be operated by a bizarre selection of ex-NER types? https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/north-eastern-railway-1500v-dc-bobo-electric-locomotive-news-photo/138599334

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6 hours ago, John M Upton said:

There is actually supposed to be a overhead electrified (Woodhead style 1500V DC possibly?) branch on Sodor with its own electric locos but it never actually gets mentioned or seen apart from a glimpse in the background of one of Christopher Awdry's later books (I think it is Henry one) which shows lines in the background with OHLE.

Yeah, according to 'Sodor: Reading Between the Lines,' it's operated by Class 86s and unspecified EMUs.

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9 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

In-keeping with the slightly random, often ex-BR nature of the steam fleet, surely a 1500V line would be operated by a bizarre selection of ex-NER types? https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/north-eastern-railway-1500v-dc-bobo-electric-locomotive-news-photo/138599334

 

In what way we're the three designs of NER electric locomotives 'bizarre' ?

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8 hours ago, drmditch said:

 

In what way we're the three designs of NER electric locomotives 'bizarre' ?

 

Weren’t there some other, prototype ones as well? Anyway, it wouldn’t be the designs themselves that would be bizarre but the mix of locos from different locations, a bit like the (very non-standard) steam fleet.

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3 hours ago, DK123GWR said:

How common are centre-cab electrics using 1500V built to a British loading gauge?

 

Since they were built in:

1904/5   (Westinghouse/BTH),  (LNER ES1)      600v DC   x 2  (1 surviving)

1914/19 (Darlington/Siemens)  (LNER EF1)   1500v DC   x10

1922       (Darlington/Met.Vic)    (LNER EE1)   1500v DC  x 1   (Prototype)

 

- they were not likely to have many rivals in terms of date.

 

There may also have been one experimental bevel-drive locomotive.

There were some other 'centre cab electrics on industrial/mineral lines. 

 

I don't think that much (if any) NER engineering after 1885 could be described as 'bizarre'.

 

 

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  • 1 month later...
On 12/09/2021 at 17:53, DK123GWR said:

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This is the new Thomas. I can only assume that it is intended to discourage railway tresspass: stay away, or the monster might come down the tracks to get you!

 

I know I'm a little late to the party but the media being the media, has purposefully used a specific image to give a worse impression than normal.

If Thomas is racing or pulling a heavy train, or even being determined, this face is appropriate.

 

I've seen a few of the episodes and for what it is, it's entertaining.

Fast paced with music, sound effects and loads of animation - everything kids TV is about these days.  Trust me, I know, I have a 2 year old.

Luckily, Cbeebies doesn't have quite the same programming but I guess this is what happens when you sell your programme rights to Americans.

 

I felt this way when they went CGI and even the last episodes of the CGI, you could see the improvements but still wasn't really Thomas for me.

 

But then I am looking at this from the huge amount of merchandise there has been over the years.  A lot is pretty good but a lot more simply isn't Thomas.  Some half bummed effort to paint something blue, stick any old face on it and call it Thomas.  The new TV series is exactly that.  The young kids of today may like it if they haven't seen what was before, but the kids that saw the CGI version - well, there's more than enough episodes to re-run those.

 

I'd be more interested to see a CGI-child reaction to the model series.

 

It's a drastic change but I can't see them going back now.

Invested far too much in this "mistake".

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On 13/09/2021 at 11:58, tomparryharry said:

Sorry folks, this counts for nothing. The rights owners are after your money, pure & simple. Give the child a train set, and/or Lego. They'll learn things like spatial awareness, scale perception, and imagination.  Dumping a child in front of the telly breeds dissatisfaction. " Buy this! Buy that!

 

Have you watched kids TV these days?

For a couple of hours?  Because you can't make a judgement on one programme.

 

I'm against "dumping kids in front of the TV" but there can easily be a balance, especially in this day and age where technology will be their world.

 

Remember, kids of today will be left behind of they do not know technology.

My 2 year old realises he needs us to unlock our mobile phones with our thumbs (despite trying himself!) but the very limited access he has to tablets / phones, he plays a balloon popping game - pop the floating balloons.  Very good for helping with hand-eye co-ordination.  He realises the TV remove can do things to the TV if you push the right buttons and knows Alexa is the wizard behind the curtain for turning various lights on and off around the house.

Yet he still gets joy out of wooden toys and more recently a simple Postman Pat push along toy.  He spends his day at nursery where they do lots of sensory play and is ahead of speech development.  Every night we read at least 4 books together where now he's starting to point out certain things and say what they are, and even makes efforts to count them.

 

Our parenting certainly isn't "shoving him in front of the TV" but the programmes he does watch are pretty educational.

In fact, I'd struggle to think of any we allow him to watch that aren't... apart from Postman Pat (he's not that interested in Thomas at the moment).

 

Perhaps some "americanised" TV channels from Sky are "buy this - buy that" but good old Cbeebies from the BBC is far from the kids TV I used to watch.

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