Coopercraft business put up for sale

[The Evil Bus Driver]

With regard to etching, this is a look at the process of one way of doing it. Some quite nasty chemicals involved by the look of it. I think from what Michael Edge said commercial etching is probably quite a bit different.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by The Evil Bus Driver

[Jol Wilkinson]

16 hours ago, The Evil Bus Driver said:

With regard to etching, this is a look at the process of one way of doing it. Some quite nasty chemicals involved by the look of it. I think from what Michael Edge said commercial etching is probably quite a bit different.

 

 

There have been a number of articles over the years on DIY etching. Ferric chloride has usually been the etchant of choice and it is, AFAIK, the one used by the commercial etchers. It was found that heating and agitating the etch solution (again, as in the commercial process) greatly improved the results and reduced the time taken. This was done in one instance by pumping air through the etchant so that bubbles agitated it.

 

Frankly, given what is involved, then using  a company like PPD who specialise in low volume, small area etches, seems to be a more sensible approach than DIY. Many 4mm and 7mm kit producers use Photo Etch Consultants or Grainge and Hodder, who have a long history of working with the model railway trade. All are willing to offer advice and guidance on the design criteria required to produce a good product.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Jol Wilkinson
Additional text

[Crosland]

7 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

It was found that heating and agitating the etch solution (again, as in the commercial process) greatly improved the results and reduced the time taken.

 

I learnt etching for PCBs from my father who used to use hot water from a just boiled kettle to dissolve the FeCl 

 

To say it used to spit a little would be an understatement.

[David Stannard]

I would gladly purchase re releases of the Coopercraft range if they become available again, they are nicely detailed and very easy to assemble, the W1/5 needed some reworking to get the roof profile right but served as a good base to model other variants which I did so including W3, W8, W10 and W12, I was lucky enough to find some of the lineside accessories about a year ago in a local hobby shop that had come from a deceased estate by the look of it, I also ordered some stuff from Canada a couple of months ago to top up my collection and to replace items that had been used or damaged many years ago on previous layouts.

[Michael Hodgson]

9 hours ago, Crosland said:

 

I learnt etching for PCBs from my father who used to use hot water from a just boiled kettle to dissolve the FeCl 

 

To say it used to spit a little would be an understatement.

That must be the explanation for "No Spitting" signs on the top deck of the data bus.

[TheQ]

I Used to use warm water for making PCBs never boiling....

Normally in a large tray which would allow for "agitation" without spilling.

[Bucoops]

I'm very glad I don't have any money as with the surname Cooper my ikkle brain keeps poking me saying you know you want to

[Jol Wilkinson]

2 hours ago, TheQ said:

I Used to use warm water for making PCBs never boiling....

Normally in a large tray which would allow for "agitation" without spilling.

PCB copper is much thinner than .012" brass, .015" N/S, etc. and is usually single sided etched ib DIY use. The sort of etching we require is double sided and the metal needs to be suspended vertically  to get even etching from both sides..

 

Producing the artwork is clean process, creating the photo tool and etching metal, not so much.

[Ian_M]

Anyone heard anymore about this business sale? There doesn't seem to be anything on the Cooper-Craft website - I'm aware of the history!

 

Whilst I realise many would recommend against it, I'm on the look-out for model related businesses which I could buy into and improve.

[Tim Dubya]

17 minutes ago, Ian_M said:

Anyone heard anymore about this business sale? There doesn't seem to be anything on the Cooper-Craft website - I'm aware of the history!

 

Whilst I realise many would recommend against it, I'm on the look-out for model related businesses which I could buy into and improve.

 

Have you Googled businesses for sale in the South West?

 

 

Edited October 27, 2021 by Tim Dubya
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[Ian_M]

51 minutes ago, Tim Dubya said:

 

Have you Googled businesses for sale in the South West?

 

 

 

I have now - still none the wiser...

[raymw]

3 hours ago, Tim Dubya said:

 

Have you Googled businesses for sale in the South West?

 

 

They have a few successful model railway businesses for sale, they probably can only list successful businesses.

[Jol Wilkinson]

5 hours ago, Ian_M said:

Anyone heard anymore about this business sale? There doesn't seem to be anything on the Cooper-Craft website - I'm aware of the history!

 

Whilst I realise many would recommend against it, I'm on the look-out for model related businesses which I could buy into and improve.

Ian,

 

have you looked at any businesses that are still listed but effectively dormant. Those that come immediately to mind would include Peter K/Kemilway, Mikes Models or Sharman Wheels. A look through the Smaller Suppliers section of RMweb might show some others. Sometimes business owners are reluctant to sell or haven't even considered it but a considered approach  might bear fruit.

 

You could also look at those ares where modellers are poorly served for some products (outside of what the RTR suppliers are doing) and perhaps startup a new business. Recent examples could include Modelu or Megapoints, although clearly some expertise/knowledge in the design and production processes required might be needed.

 

Jol

[Siberian Snooper]

The ABS 7mm range has found a new owner, but it all seems to have gone quite on the 4mm range, is David Geen still managing the Malcolm Mitchell range, or has it gone back to Pete Waterman and no longer available. 

 

 

[pete_mcfarlane]

2 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

have you looked at any businesses that are still listed but effectively dormant. Those that come immediately to mind would include Peter K/Kemilway, Mikes Models or Sharman Wheels.

Amazingly, Sharman wheels are no longer dormant: https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/4mm-steam-locomotive-driving-wheels

 

(Although not everything is in stock)

[Jol Wilkinson]

18 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

The ABS 7mm range has found a new owner, but it all seems to have gone quite on the 4mm range, is David Geen still managing the Malcolm Mitchell range, or has it gone back to Pete Waterman and no longer available. 

 

 

 

The 4mm ABS range has a new owner, but he is still  sorting it out. Very often the owner of a range of products like this hasn't documented it well, nor is it usually sorted into nice neat little packages when it goes to the new owner, especially when it is part of a deceased owner's estate.

 

I know of a once popular range, which hasn't been available for some years, which is now in new hands. Nothing is documented, items are jumbled up, what comes out of which mould isn't known, etc. It'll take quite some time to sort out.

 

2 minutes ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

Amazingly, Sharman wheels are no longer dormant: https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/4mm-steam-locomotive-driving-wheels

 

(Although not everything is in stock)

 

When I last spoke to David Stapleton of PPP, he said that they were selling the existing stock of Sharman Wheels but weren't producing any new products. Occasionally however they will produce for a special order, if the quantity ordered is large enough.

 

4mm loco wheels is an area where a new supplier, who produced the sizes/types not available from AGW or Ultrascale, would be welcome. One kit manufacturer is investigating 3D printed centres for steel tyres, although another supplier did produce some prototypes several years ago (I have a set on one loco), but didn't follow it through.

[ikcdab]

9 hours ago, Ian_M said:

Anyone heard anymore about this business sale? There doesn't seem to be anything on the Cooper-Craft website - I'm aware of the history!

 

Whilst I realise many would recommend against it, I'm on the look-out for model related businesses which I could buy into and improve.

 The business itself and the stock ranges are perfectly ok,  as I understand it. It's the administration and the repairs that were needed to the moulding machine that were problematic. I think that anyone buying this business could develop it quite nicely, assuming a complete change of personnel and business processes.

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, ikcdab said:

 The business itself and the stock ranges are perfectly ok,  as I understand it. It's the administration and the repairs that were needed to the moulding machine that were problematic. I think that anyone buying this business could develop it quite nicely, assuming a complete change of personnel and business processes.

 

It has also been suggested that the moulding tools may have been inexpertly 'got at', in order to try and make them suitable for a moulding machine other than the original.

 

Caveat emptor!

 

CJI.

[Jol Wilkinson]

I understood from someone well versed in these matters that the original moulds were designed for a "horizontal" machine. I believe that Mr Dunn may have tried to use with a vertical machine and having had little or no success was trying to obtain another machine or adapt his own. The original make/model of moulding machine used is no longer available but  other machines are available and/or it may possible to adapt the moulds (given the right knowledge).

 

This information is based on several conversations I have had over a number of years and may be slightly inaccurate, my memory not being what it was.

[Bucoops]

16 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

I understood from someone well versed in these matters that the original moulds were designed for a "horizontal" machine. I believe that Mr Dunn may have tried to use with a vertical machine and having had little or no success was trying to obtain another machine or adapt his own. The original make/model of moulding machine used is no longer available but  other machines are available and/or it may possible to adapt the moulds (given the right knowledge).

 

This information is based on several conversations I have had over a number of years and may be slightly inaccurate, my memory not being what it was.

 

This is similar to what I've heard.

[Miss Prism]

I was surprised Paul Dunn didn't take on Tony Brown's machines when he purchased the brand.

 

[raymw]

The photos here, http://cooper-craft.co.uk/Pages/2/About-Us.html  afaik are from Tony Brown's works. I visited Mr Dunn's cow barn (with leaking roof and loose stone floor) after he had started, and there were two injection moulding machines of a similar style, one not working, He complained about how much it would cost for an 'expert'  to repair it. The other machine, after he ran it over night, moulded about 20kG of plastic around itself.

The stryrgon pantograph mill, in the other image on that page, was a pile of rust - al;though I knew Tony Brown looked after it when he had it. It was completely apparent to me that Mr Dunn had absolutely no idea about this type of machinery. I have no idea what price he paid at the time, I don't think he has added any value, and I don't know how much he'd pay for someone to take it off his hands. I think this would be a useful place to start https://scrapmetalprice.org.uk/#:~:text=Scrap metal prices fluctuate due to the demands,better rates for metals they specialise in recycling. 

 

Of course, if you think some of the names are of value, then fine, but if you want to produce items, in plastic, then I expect you'd either have to buy fresh machinery, or outsource the manufacturing.

Edited October 28, 2021 by raymw

[BernardTPM]

Yes, that photo is the unit in Leytonstone; I was there many times back in the '90s/early '00s.

[Steamport Southport]

10 hours ago, raymw said:

 

Of course, if you think some of the names are of value, then fine, but if you want to produce items, in plastic, then I expect you'd either have to buy fresh machinery, or outsource the manufacturing.

 

Someone must be doing it as Phoenix sell the SR Ian Kirk kits.

 

Whether Phoenix have their own machinery or outsource I don't know.

 

 

 

Jason

[Tim Dubya]

19 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Someone must be doing it as Phoenix sell the SR Ian Kirk kits.

 

Whether Phoenix have their own machinery or outsource I don't know.

 

 

 

Jason

 

Maybe they bought the machine from Colin Ashby or he does it for them?