Suggestions for layout basics in my loft please?

[IscaSteve]

Hi there.

 

I'm new to the hobby having last had a set when I was a child in the 80s. Based on my wants, I think I'd be best off with a DCC layout which will be built in my loft.

I have a space which is 3250x2400mm (c.10'6" x 7'8") and due to the angle of the rafters, my clear working height space is 900mm (c.3') across the middle of the 3250mm (see attachment). I will not have access around the edges due to the low roof clearance. 

 

The entry to the layout is from the bottom of the image where there is a loft hatch just off the plan. I could easily add a 900mm wide lift-out to the bottom edge and operate from the centre.

The top edge is a solid wall and the sides are where the rafters drop down diagonally, meeting vertical supports (hence the max 3250 width).

 

Wants for my layout:

I'm not fussy about the era.

I would ideally like two loops around the track (would settle for one), and a goods yard for some shunting. Maybe a shed. No turntable required. I'm not against a multi-level layout and thought the bottom edge could be raised bridge.

 

I hope to buy the following trains:

• Class 03/08 loco with some wagons
• Class 55, Deltic, Co-Co, 55013 The Black Watch (or similar Class 55)
• A4 Class Mallard and carriages OR a Class 43 or similar with 5-6 carriages (hopefully both in good time)

 

The difficulty I'm having and therefore am reaching out for some advice, is the initial layout design (as per the attached).

I have read that u-shaped layouts are not good (?), and I could easily have a lift-out at the bottom so either way I think a decent layout can be achieved in this space.

I have bought and studied the Peco track layout books and reviewed lots of online plans, but I just can't settle on an appealing layout before I even add the detail.

 

Also I'm constrained by the 50 piece Anyrail limit until I can justify buying the full program - which only happens once I'm convinced I can make something appealing work.

I sort of got away with this in plan 6 by modifying a plan I found online, but i'm still short of points etc. 

 

Any help or guidance you can offer me on what type of layout would be best in this space would be welcome. Additionally, if you have any ideas for a different way to set the boards up I am happy to consider those too.

 

Many thanks!

Anyrail Layout Area.pdf Plan 6 V1.pdf Plan 1 V1.pdf

[Michael Hodgson]

Obviously dependent on the shape of the building, one advantage of a loft layout is that you can have a round & round layout without the hassle of needing a lifting flap or similar to gain access the layout, as a loft ladder is likely to be fairly central in the highest part of the loft.  If it's a semi and you're climbing a ladder into the space by the party wall, there will still be room for track behind your head on that wall.  Not sure if that's what you have in your plan.

 

Even if you want to operate end-to-end most of the time, it's always useful to be able to set something running and leave it for a while as part of maintenance.

 

You need to be able to reach the furthest part of the trackwork from the operating well for cleaning, maintenance, re-railing and for even scenic work etc.  It looks more than an arm's length wide to me, so consider enlarging the operating well

 

Flooring, heat insulation, ventilation etc are the first things you need to consider before even planning track.  Lofts are hot in summer, cold in winter and can have irritants on the form of fibreglass ceiling insulation etc.

[IscaSteve]

Thanks for your reply.

The space shown is half the loft. The hatch is in the middle of the overall loft space, but the other half of loft is out of use as it's where everything is stored, so I will have to come up the ladder and either directly into the operating well, or via a lift-away if I fit one.

 

I see what you mean about the arm's length; I will factor this in as I don't have access around it. 

 

Agreed re insulation etc. I plan to insulate and board the roof. The floor is properly insulated and boarded already.

 

[ITG]

Compared to the overall expenditure of a layout of the size you’re proposing, I’d say the Anyrail subscription is a worthwhile investment. It’s not about planning every last inch, more about testing concepts - then you can go on to test the detail in Anyrail. 
And budget is an important factor….. things like point motors, decoders, switches etc all add to what you might call a ‘below board’ cost, but will impact significantly to the operationalability of the plan. Not saying you have to have electronic points, but not costing them in and wishing you’d allowed for them is a potential for regret.

Also, try to define more about what you want - scenery, for example. Too much track and there’s less room for scenery. No right or wrong but redrawing or deleting Anyrail plans costs nothing; ripping up unsatisfactory layouts is a whole different game. Good luck.

[BWsTrains]

The crossovers based on R8073 to R8073 (from Plan 6 pdf file)  produces a tight reverse curve which I used in Mark 1 of my setting (even smaller than yours!) then pulled out and replaced because I was constantly getting coupling interlocks with standard tension lock couplings. Besides they are totally non-prototypical and have to be traversed at a crawling speed.

 

Aim for much more gentle changes of direction, I'm sure others better qualified here will guide you on these and other matters but I'd also suggest "less is more". Think about your operating routines, deliveries shunting etc. as part of what is worth including in the track plan. Others will confirm that having trains running round and round soon gets boring.

 

Agree about buying the Anyrial licence but it's worth learning its ins and outs first before committing.

 

Good luck

 

Colin

Edited September 14, 2021 by BWsTrains
correction

[ITG]

The board width, and your reach across it, is key. I’d recommend 600mm, or maybe 750mm max. Remember, the reach across a corner is longer on the diagonal. If you opt to follow that basis, your layout plan v1 cannot be fitted in, due to the radius requirements. Or you need to have an access hole in the centre of the curved section. 
I note one of your plans uses Set Track. Bear in mind track spacing using Set Track is unprototypically wide, which will affect what you can fit in. Also, radii of ST points is tight, and some stock may not be totally happy running through the S of a crossover. Where ST can be helpful is in using set radii for tighter curves, which are best hidden. By using this approach, it allows more space elsewhere.

 

In my fairly limited experience (so my mistake-making and learning is recent!), operational scope is improved by (at least) 2 factors.

1. having somewhere for trains to run to and from, rather than just round and round.

2. having somewhere to hold trains/stock off-scene

Add these 2 things together, and it produces either a storage/fiddle yard and/or a second station. The former could be as simple as loops on the mainline, say behind a backscene.

 

From my personal experience, I’d say you’re almost certain to be dissatisfied (to one degree or another) with whatever you build first time. In my case, I needed to make the mistakes to learn from them, and to work out and prioritise what I wanted from the layout. Hence the “to/from “ comment, and also the storage roads wish. But (unless you change scale), most of the first time round components can be reused.

By all means, use this forum to refine your thinking, and use Anyrail to test that out, but sooner or later, you have to start (track laying) somewhere!

Edited September 14, 2021 by ITG

[ikcdab]

Goto youtube and watch the latest Everard Junction video where he describes his loft layout.

It's worth repeating that insulation, ventilation and flooring is absolutely critical. If you don't do that correctly then all the money you might spend on track or locos is wasted. 

Lofts can be great spaces for railways bit you do need to do the upfront prep first for it to be successful.

Ian C

[The Stationmaster]

If you're thinking of building a model railway of any sort in a roof space there are some important things you need to consider.   First is the age of the building and the type of roof space it has - from your description it sounds as it if might be relatively modern where the construction is designed purely to hold up the roof and not provide a strong weight bearing floor area so the floor joists might need strengthening.  Secondly there is the situation in respect of Building Regulations and habitable space.  If you put a model railway in your roof space it becomes habitable space and needs to comply with the relevant Building Regulations - and that can mean big money.  BTW I am assuming that you own the house or have a mortgage on it and that it is not rented (which comes with its own additional problems).

 

I would suggest that you have two courses open to you if you want to use it for a layout.  Ideally you should consult a reputable surveyor and seek their technical advice regarding use of the roof space - you might not like what he/she has to say or what their proposals might cost but that would undoubtedly be the correct course to take.   Just have a look on the 'net at the cost of loft conversions but make sureyou havea strong drink handy    Alternatively you could carry on with your plans and not seek any professional advice but you might lay yourself open to all sorts of problems in the future.   Sorry to sound like a Cassandra but going into the roof for a layout is not as simple as it might sound.

[woodenhead]

Just to give some idea of regs, I live in a house with three storeys plus a big loft space with a big access hatch.

 

If I wanted to use the loft space for a railway, I would have to look at additional fire suppression within the home or put in a fire escape to meet regulations.

 

Guess what, I gave up the idea quite quickly.

[BWsTrains]

5 hours ago, ikcdab said:

Goto youtube and watch the latest Everard Junction video where he describes his loft layout.

It's worth repeating that insulation, ventilation and flooring is absolutely critical. If you don't do that correctly then all the money you might spend on track or locos is wasted. 

Lofts can be great spaces for railways bit you do need to do the upfront prep first for it to be successful.

Ian C

 

But don't repeat his earlier mistake of using MDF as the layout base material. The whole thing warped and twisted when it adsorbed moisture and he had to rip it all up and start over on Mark II.

Edited September 14, 2021 by BWsTrains

[RobinofLoxley]

A couple of points - although you have talked about stock you would like, there's an assumption that you will build in OO, but you could consider N gauge. It feels like toy size to some people but has advantages in restricted spaces.

 

I take it that you have sloping eaves, in which case things will look very strange if you use the area furthest away from the clear working space.

 

I would see plan 6 v1 as just a doodle in Anyrail. You can use flextrack segments, which are longer and extendable, to give yourself more working capacity. Plan 1 has something in it.

 

The net space you can really use is not as large as the gross

[ikcdab]

37 minutes ago, BWsTrains said:

 

But don't repeat his earlier mistake of using MDF as the layout base material. The whole thing warped and twisted when it adsorbed moisture and he had to rip it all up and start over on Mark II.

100% agree. MDF is not suitable in any form. The whole Everard Jct story is great to watch and highly educational if you are starting out... Or even if you are experienced. Load to learn from Richards videos.

[IscaSteve]

10 hours ago, ITG said:

I note one of your plans uses Set Track. Bear in mind track spacing using Set Track is unprototypically wide, which will affect what you can fit in. Also, radii of ST points is tight, and some stock may not be totally happy running through the S of a crossover. Where ST can be helpful is in using set radii for tighter curves, which are best hidden. By using this approach, it allows more space elsewhere.

 

Interesting... I'm happy to use flexi track but not sure how to ensure the curves are forgiving enough with it in Anyrail...

I just used what was already in the plan.

[IscaSteve]

Thanks to everyone for your comments and suggestions. Some interesting thoughts for me to consider carefully.

I've watched the Everard video. It's very interesting and was a good watch.

 

The house is rented long term from a friend who is happy with me making any modifications to the property (short of knocking down the walls!). I have seen a few comments on forums regarding making the loft a habitable space but it seems many don't do this... although I understand the regulations say it must be done.

 

It's a 1965-ish house and was definitely built strong enough to handle the load, as it has previously contained a home gym and was literally rammed full of the ex-owners property and two water tanks when we moved in; so my thoughts are if it was going to give, it would have been then.

 

However, if it becomes too complex or costly to make the space usable, I may just swap to using my garage instead. A smaller area but still sufficient for a reasonable layout.  

[Philou]

If you do decide to use your garage, you will need to consider insulation, ventilation, heating and lighting too. There are a number of threads concerning the use of a garage as a railway room. Before making your mind up, you may wish to explore the threads.

 

I hadn't realised that the Building Regs had changed so much in that respect - bit of an eeek moment when I read @woodenhead's comments above.

 

Good luck with whatever you decide - and the most important rule is - have fun!

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[KingEdwardII]

25 minutes ago, Philou said:

I hadn't realised that the Building Regs had changed so much in that respect

Yes, as soon as you go beyond 2 habitable stories, things get more complex. We did a full loft "conversion" 20 years ago (conversion is a bit of a lightweight term since we rebuilt the entire roof from scratch). Full size flooring joists are required (8' x 2"), plus comprehensive insulation. In our case, we ended up with 3 stories and this only required interlinked mains-with-backup fire alarms on all 3 floors and a clear exit route (no doors between the top landing and the front door).

 

Hope that things work out OK for your plans.

 

Mike.

[woodenhead]

4 minutes ago, KingEdwardII said:

In our case, we ended up with 3 stories and this only required interlinked mains-with-backup fire alarms on all 3 floors and a clear exit route (no doors between the top landing and the front door).

Which is what we have, but if we then add a habitable loft and it gets very stringent 

[spamcan61]

In terms of using the loft in the context of building regulations then the key question is are you creating a habitable space or not. The answer to this varies between both amateurs and professionals in my experience.

 

FWiW I'd much rather use the garage, largely on the grounds of convenience and temperature variation.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, KingEdwardII said:

Yes, as soon as you go beyond 2 habitable stories, things get more complex.

I suppose that also means it gets complicated if you have a cellar. 

 

I did once hear of an American Officer posted to Germany for a while who decided to build a layout in the cellar of his married quarters - a scenic model of the Rockies, made out of concrete no less,  I wonder what the next tenant made of the cellar when he moved in!

[KingEdwardII]

2 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

FWiW I'd much rather use the garage

Now that I use one of the bedrooms in the converted loft as the railway room, I think I prefer the loft room. The full conversion, with proper floor, windows and central heating, deals with the temperature issues and a regular staircase makes access a breeze. All utilities are available, including a complete bathroom right next door. Not so easy to achieve with a garage, unless it is built in to the house (to avoid the chilly damp journeys) and you replace the garage door with a regular wall of some kind.

 

No-one would say it's a cheap means to get a railway room, and there are the sloping ceilings to take into account, but I find it a good compromise.

 

Yours,  Mike.

[KingEdwardII]

2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I suppose that also means it gets complicated if you have a cellar. 

 

Yup.

 

Here is a direct quote from one of the web pages of a planning control authority in England:

 

"It is generally considered that basement conversions are the most expensive of domestic building work."

 

As well as tanking (to deal with water/dampness) and thermal insulation, you may have to create a separate fire escape route, in addition to a regular staircase for access from the rest of the house. Plus provide ventilation.

 

Dealing with water in basements is no joke. One of my friends has a large well appointed mid-Victorian villa with a superb cellar. It is built on limestone, which is generally very good, but it is porous, as they discovered in the summer deluge of 2007 when the cellar ended up under 3 feet of water that simply seeped in through the walls. Fortunately they were not storing anything valuable down there. My own Victorian place does not have a cellar, probably because the water table here is only a couple of feet down during the winter - they would have had an indoor swimming pool!

 

Yours, Mike.

[DCB]

If there is only room to stand upright in your marked working area then I would suggest a re think.  It is not necessary to operate or build a layout standing up, there are layouts on You Tube where the tracks are at floor level for no good reason, and where they are at low level because of low headroom.   I find 30" about the limit of reach from an operating well but things get awkward when overhead clearance gets below about18".    Lofts can be habitable rooms, I have 12 years experience on a planning Committee, but aren't usually considered to be such unless converted to bedrooms or studies etc.  A few feet of flooring and thirty years accumulation of junk is not a habitable room.  My loft layout has no flooring below the baseboards, just flooring for access to the water tank basically, its certainly not a habitable room.

If you fancy a low level approach look up the Gorre and Dapheteid railroad, he took his scenery from floor to ceiling

However if you want to stand and the standing area is as small as it appears then I  would suggest you build a layout elsewhere,    I did one round a bedroom 60" above floor level which left 90% of the floor area available for bed room sorts of things, Ok I had to use a step ladder for working on it and operate standing up,  Gardens are good but weeds keep flopping on to the tracks

If you fancy a low level approach look up the Gorre and Dapheteid railroad, he took his scenery from floor to ceiling

[ikcdab]

14 hours ago, IscaSteve said:

Thanks to everyone for your comments and suggestions. Some interesting thoughts for me to consider carefully.

I've watched the Everard video. It's very interesting and was a good watch.

 

The house is rented long term from a friend who is happy with me making any modifications to the property (short of knocking down the walls!). I have seen a few comments on forums regarding making the loft a habitable space but it seems many don't do this... although I understand the regulations say it must be done.

 

It's a 1965-ish house and was definitely built strong enough to handle the load, as it has previously contained a home gym and was literally rammed full of the ex-owners property and two water tanks when we moved in; so my thoughts are if it was going to give, it would have been then.

 

However, if it becomes too complex or costly to make the space usable, I may just swap to using my garage instead. A smaller area but still sufficient for a reasonable layout.  

I think you have to be pragmatic. You're not trying to create a complete habitable space which might have wardrobes, beds etc and multiple people moving around. You're building a model railway which is relatively lightweight. You don't need an expensive loft conversion or complex fire arrangements. But u must think about insulation and ventilation, otherwise it will be unusable in winter and summer.

[spamcan61]

4 hours ago, DCB said:

  My loft layout has no flooring below the baseboards, just flooring for access to the water tank basically, its certainly not a habitable room.

 

A very good idea in my opinion, worst case scenario one might need to find an electricity cable or water pipe in the loft, in a hurry, in the dark, the last thing you'd want to be doing is trying to lift slabs of chipboard up.

Edited September 15, 2021 by spamcan61

[Wheatley]

14 hours ago, IscaSteve said:

However, if it becomes too complex or costly to make the space usable, I may just swap to using my garage instead. 

 

Three advantages with a garage, irrespective of any planning, building control, insurance, falling out with your mate issues:

 

1. It's a lot harder to fall out of than a loft. 

2. It's unlikely to raise any regulatory eyebrows unless you start bricking up the door and filling it with soft furnishings. If it's a separate building to the house you're unlikely to fall foul of anything, it's effectively a garden room/workshop. If you live in certain parts of the country you may have to demonstrate to the authorities that you haven't sub-let it to students, fruit pickers, car washers etc. 

3. They're all roughly the same size, 8 foot-ish by about 14-16 foot-ish. If you make it portable (how ever loosely you interpret that) you move you can take it with you when you move. 

 

Disadvantages-  security (sometimes), I just take the stock back indoors in between testing/running sessions. Also you'll need to put a heater of some sort in their. Oil-filled radiator if the insulation is up to it, fan heater for a quick blast to take the chill off if not. Not parrafin or calor gas.  

 

Edited September 15, 2021 by Wheatley