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How might we plan for the sustainability of steam powered heritage rail, while being friendly to the climate?


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The future of rail is electrification for major lines, hybrid Hydrogen electrics for minor lines.

 

Oil (Diesel) & coal have limited futures, and indeed according to the BP statistical analysis of world energy, oil has 53.5 years left

(Page 16, bottom rhs R/P ratio world). Natural Gas 48.8 years (Page 34). Coal 139 years (Page 46).

 

https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp/business-sites/en/global/corporate/pdfs/energy-economics/statistical-review/bp-stats-review-2021-full-report.pdf

 

The remaining will remain in the ground. (Or in China & India's case - perhaps not). We will see.

 

Big question is how do we make our electricity (and Hydrogen).

 

Crap times ahead.

 

Brit15

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1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:


Ah, the economics change ……. I’m imagining large galleons with big old windmills on top.

 

Think of a cross between The Cutty Sark and these rather attractive traditional Majorcan pumping engines. A fleet of those would make the view from Brighton Beach a lot more interesting than it is now.

 

 

Well if its a clear day them I believe this is visible from the coast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rampion_Wind_Farm

 

You can do trips out from Brighton marina to see it up close if you want.

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Yes, I saw it when I cycled along there early in the summer, you can make it out quite well from the clifftop road east of Brighton, and again when you go over Newhaven and Seaford Heads - very dull compared with those Majorcan ones.

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

 

Oil (Diesel) & coal have limited futures, and indeed according to the BP statistical analysis of world energy, oil has 53.5 years left

(Page 16, bottom rhs R/P ratio world). Natural Gas 48.8 years (Page 34). Coal 139 years (Page 46).

 

https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp/business-sites/en/global/corporate/pdfs/energy-economics/statistical-review/bp-stats-review-2021-full-report.pdf

 

The remaining will remain in the ground. (Or in China & India's case - perhaps not). We will see.

 

 

Thats scaremongering - there is actually plenty of oil left for way more that 53 years!

 

What is true is that its going to be harder and more costly to extract it once the 'easy' fields are exhausted (and quite obviously that has implications for BPs shareholders / long term profitability). However given the need for plastics as wire insulation etc that is going to have to be done at some point once easy sources are used up.

 

The other thing to remember is that efforts to reduce CO2 emissions are likely to see far less oil being used for vehicle propulsion - thereby meaning what we extract will go further so that 53 years is unlikely to be accurate.

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Steam locos are complicated and capricious beasts, compared to the electronically-controlled modern diesel or electric loco. Training a man to be competent to drive a steam loco, and understand its moods and needs, takes more time.  We are all aware that some drivers in the steam era could get more out of their loco than others, and even the most modern tech developments are unlikely to overcome that. 

 

The fossil-fuel issue, as already identified, does the steam loco no favours in popularity, and the fairly poor availability compared to modern traction makes them expensive to own. Maintaining them and cleaning them were not popular jobs 60 or 70 years ago, and today's workforce is not heavily into dirty and arduous work - vide the shortage of people even to pick sprouts!

 

Finally, the network-wide infrastructure required to fuel and water them is simply not needed by modern power. Emerging nations are more likely to want to show how developed they are, by using smart modern power, than to be seen as using throwback systems discarded by the affluent world. 

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19 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Thats scaremongering - there is actually plenty of oil left for way more that 53 years!

 

What is true is that its going to be harder and more costly to extract it once the 'easy' fields are exhausted (and quite obviously that has implications for BPs shareholders / long term profitability). However given the need for plastics as wire insulation etc that is going to have to be done at some point once easy sources are used up.

 

The other thing to remember is that efforts to reduce CO2 emissions are likely to see far less oil being used for vehicle propulsion - thereby meaning what we extract will go further so that 53 years is unlikely to be accurate.

 

Write to the Chairman of BP then - his companies figures. The BP yearly world energy report is very highly respected within the industry worldwide. Of course it's a best estimate, based on known reserves and estimated future usage. Covid has more than likely extended these figures by a huge drop in demand, but as we (probably) get back to "normal" then demand will rise again.

 

I agree the easy to get stuff has gone, and there is probably A LOT more to be found in places like Arctica etc - but may never be either prospected or extracted - a very political issue.

 

Fossil fuels are not limitless, and the rising world population demands more and more. 

 

Have a look at the last few BP yearly reports, they are all on line, the R?P for gas and oil go down each year by more than one (a lot more) indicating increased demand year on year (pre covid) - especially true for Natural Gas. No wonder National Grid is selling the gas transmission system later this year, having already sold the regional networks - all of them.

 

The world is energy hungry. Renewables do help though, but will they replace (oil & gas) - I don't think so, not for 50 years or so - then it's **** time.

 

Brit15

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8 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Write to the Chairman of BP then - his companies figures. The BP yearly world energy report is very highly respected within the industry worldwide. Of course it's a best estimate, based on known reserves and estimated future usage. Covid has more than likely extended these figures by a huge drop in demand, but as we (probably) get back to "normal" then demand will rise again.

I seem to remember reports, possibly from the 1980s, that all the oil would be gone by, I think it was, 2013. There's still a lot down there eight years later.

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Whatever it is it will renewable energy written right through it so burning is not going to be the answer. Capturing solar energy and using wind, tide and hydro are solutions. What is disappointing is that nearly a century ago there were hydroelectric schemes in North Wales, one of which included electric locomotives. Fast forward a century and how many electric routes have been built in Wales ?

 

 

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59 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

 No wonder National Grid is selling the gas transmission system later this year, having already sold the regional networks - all of them.

 

 

Thats got far more to do with the the UK governments actions like banning the installation of new gas boilers and the move away from Gas fired power stations than anything else.

 

If you are a private company why preside over the decline of a part of your business - one which has losts of fixed costs and safety liabilities to boot! Far better to flog it off while the going is good and save your shareholders from having to deal with 'managed decline' of the business

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6 minutes ago, Covkid said:

Whatever it is it will renewable energy written right through it so burning is not going to be the answer. Capturing solar energy and using wind, tide and hydro are solutions. What is disappointing is that nearly a century ago there were hydroelectric schemes in North Wales, one of which included electric locomotives. Fast forward a century and how many electric routes have been built in Wales ?

 

 

 

The Hydro electric schemes in Wales are actually not there primarily as a power supply!

 

They exist as (1) a fresh water supply for the Wirral / Liverpool and (2) As grid balancing devices which can quickly input large amounts of power to the grid when everyone switches on their kettles after a TV show has finished and the demand suddenly goes up plus consume excess power by pumping water uphill again ready for the next time there is a sudden demand for power.

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1 hour ago, LMS2968 said:

I seem to remember reports, possibly from the 1980s, that all the oil would be gone by, I think it was, 2013. There's still a lot down there eight years later.

 

Quite.

 

Its in the interests of oil companies to talk up 'the end of oil' as not only does it create the impression that oil is a finite resource which can command a high price but it also puts the pressure on Governments to allow exploration activities in environmentally sensitive areas so as to extend the 'deadline' as it were when supplies will supposedly be exhausted.

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1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

 

Fossil fuels are not limitless, and the rising world population demands more and more. 

 

 

True - but if the world takes action on climate change there will be a big reduction in the use of fossil fuels for transport and heating purposes. That reduction will offset to a degree the increase in oil based products like various plastics - another good reason to embrace the various initiatives designed to slow climate change.

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  • Florence Locomotive Works changed the title to How might we plan for the sustainability of steam powered heritage rail, while being friendly to the climate?

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RIght, well now that we have established that it is highly unlikely that steam will return in any great force on proper railways, (although something could be said for more steam turbine ships in the future) how do we think we can keep that current international heritage steam scene alive throughout the growing climate crisis.

 

One solution might be to get say, the boiler from a Black 5 and stick high power electrical heating elements down the flue tubes, as a simple test to see whether that form of firing would be viable in a locomotive style boiler. In theory they could run off a pantograph mounted in the tender etc. If the test is successful perhaps we will see an increase or mandate saying that all engines must be converted to electrical firing by say (big hypothetical) 2040.

 

We could also do what the Swiss did during their coal shortage.

 

Douglas

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

...... One solution might be to get say, the boiler from a Black 5 and stick high power electrical heating elements down the flue tubes, as a simple test to see whether that form of firing would be viable in a locomotive style boiler .....

I think that's a solution looking for a problem ......... whatever you do you're not going to improve on the efficiency of a straight electric loco.

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One idea, particularly for tender locomotives would be to convert them to run as fireless locomotives with the steam reservoir in a faux tender.  After each run the tender would probably need to be re-charged from a stationary boiler powered by solar energy. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=fireless+steam+locomotive&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjt6fGey4HzAhVKR6wKHROEA4IQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=fireless+ste&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQARgBMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBAgAEBg6BAgAEEM6CAgAEIAEELEDOgcIABCxAxBDOgYIABAIEB5Q2dQUWInrFGDt_BRoAHAAeACAAYkBiAH7C5IBBDAuMTKYAQCgAQGqAQtnd3Mtd2l6LWltZ8ABAQ&sclient=img&ei=lDhCYe3PMMqOsQWTiI6QCA&bih=722&biw=1536&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS946US946&hl=en

 

I have been thinking about this solution as the local preserved railway which I support as a member ( the Niles Canyon Railway, https://www.ncry.org/) has numerous issues issues with air pollution as well as right of way fire fire prevention in tinder dry California.  9 months of the year the NCRY is limited to diesel power and the historic diesel engines have had to have pollution controls added. 

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The Fairbourne Railway are running trials this week with a coal replacement made from the waste left-overs from processing rapeseed oil.  It's taken from a Facebook post so those of you with a wasp up your chuff about social media can read it

"Today, tomorrow and Thursday we are running the Yellow Timetable and we are also trying out a different fuel, it's a coal replacement made from the left overs from making pressed rapeseed oil. Thanks to the folks at Phoenix Speciality Oils for letting us try it out!"

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I was thinking about gas firing, using a ceramic burner, as is done at 16mm/ft, but that, and burning rapeseed waste, still gets us back to CO2. 
 

To be truly low-impact in CO2 terms, the energy source has to be solar, wind, hydro, geothermal etc.

 

More preserved electric locos and EMUs, anyone? Perhaps instead of building more replica steam locos, we could have replicas of some nice Edwardian electrics. Euston to Glasgow by LBSCR overhead electric (with suitable transformer and FC).

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20 minutes ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

EDIT

 

 

RIght, well now that we have established that it is highly unlikely that steam will return in any great force on proper railways, (although something could be said for more steam turbine ships in the future) how do we think we can keep that current international heritage steam scene alive throughout the growing climate crisis.

 

One solution might be to get say, the boiler from a Black 5 and stick high power electrical heating elements down the flue tubes, as a simple test to see whether that form of firing would be viable in a locomotive style boiler. In theory they could run off a pantograph mounted in the tender etc. If the test is successful perhaps we will see an increase or mandate saying that all engines must be converted to electrical firing by say (big hypothetical) 2040.

 

We could also do what the Swiss did during their coal shortage.

 

Douglas

 

 

 

You need to remember that there will still be the need for a portable fuel source in future - thats why so much is being invested in Hydrogen research because its going to be the only thing which can produce enough grunt where the fixed costs of an electrification system are deemed unviable.

 

Ultimately I can see locos being converted to run on Hydrogen with a gas tank installed in the coal space just like used to be done with oil fired locos.

 

However as things stand heritage operations produce miniscule amounts of CO2 pollution compared to the millions of gas powered central heating systems etc. As such the biggest 'threat' to steam is not actually laws / legislation, its simply the ability to purchase coal (or in time oil) at an affordable price.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I was thinking about gas firing, using a ceramic burner, as is done at 16mm/ft, but that, and burning rapeseed waste, still gets us back to CO2. 
 

To be truly low-impact in CO2 terms, the energy source has to be solar, wind, hydro, geothermal etc.

 

More preserved electric locos and EMUs, anyone?

 

None of which are 'portable' enough to fit into a steam locomotive. Batteries or a static steam supply might be fine for short operations but they won't cut it for long duration operations / heavy trains.

 

Hydrogen can give the same sustained power as an oil / gas based solution but only produces oxygen and water so is the solution of choice for situations where electrification is not deemed viable.

 

As for more preserved electric locos / EMUs - that will need to overcome the hostility from the safety lobby who dislike 'amateurs' using stuff above 110V.

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