3D Printing bits and bobs on Demand as Kits - General Question of interest

[JimmyBobProductions]

Greetings alls, been a while since I've said anything but I got a general question of interest.

 

Right to business, my partner has been trying to see if he could make a business type thing out of his 3D printing. With my knowledge as a 3D Artist helping along, the question is really, what to make. We've been back and forth on the idea of doing some kind of kits or even just a general thing that model makers either scratch building or kit building might need. I personally would love to try and make a loco/wagon kit that comes in bits which you just put together as normal, which to be fair is what a fair few do already with the advent of Shapeways and their own home printers. My partner enjoys the idea of printing something which everyone has needed at least once when modelling and they then had to do it themselves, but could have saved time buying a kit version/printed version to save the headache.

 

My question is more, is there interest in such a thing? And what could it be. I guess normal stuff like track rerailers, buffers, fences, random generic small buildings but I also thought human figures, in a varianty of Era's to suit the need of what the modeller is making. What about coach/wagon axles and springs? But I know some already exist in resin. What is it that you've wanted when building something, or making something and then gone "HA! That would be handy!"

 

Let me know what ya' think, any thought is a good idea!

[Michael Hodgson]

There's a lot of that sort of generic stuff already, especially scenic items like small buildings, vehciles, oil drums & barrows for platforms and goods yards etc.  Although there are a number of excellent models on Shapeways, that outlet has become unpopular because of its pricing, exacerbated by problems associated with Brexit; you might do better to sell on ebay.  If you're doing rolling stock, demand would be more for a specific item such as a model of a (whole) particular wagon and the level of detail and sharpness of the print qulaity would be important, which I suspect implies using an expensive top of the range printer.

 

I can't see much demand for 3D printed wagon axles - modellers prefer metal wheels and sprung buffers. 

Couplings or coupling mounts seem popular.

[JimmyBobProductions]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

There's a lot of that sort of generic stuff already, especially scenic items like small buildings, vehciles, oil drums & barrows for platforms and goods yards etc.

Yeah this is what I thought really, there's a lot of stuff both print and resin kits that are already just, existing. Why wait for the postage of a small building if you can just nip down the street to a model shop and buy a kit. I guess it depends on what people would want and if it looks like more what they want.

 

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

If you're doing rolling stock, demand would be more for a specific item such as a model of a (whole) particular wagon and the level of detail and sharpness of the print qulaity would be important, which I suspect implies using an expensive top of the range printer.

This is generally the idea I had which I know a lot do already. I guess nice looking generic four wheel coaches and wagons for Narow Gauge modellers is something small enough to do but wouldn't be too costly/take time to do. Unsure what his printer type is but it does come out nice. Was testing a print last night and while it still have some roughness to it, the resin kit we based it on to do a "replica" of for testing came out looking pretty close, bar a few details. I love the idea of basically printing a sprue of bits but that would probably be way too much time to print compared to a full body shell.

 

Which then brings me onto maybe having to be more specific, like would doing a particular locomotive or coach/wagon be better? Guess it depends on the locomotive but personally always been into the 1800s Era of railway which has seen a bit more of a boom the past few years so maybe either scratch building bits or a complete kit to make that a greater interest to model. Just spit balling ideas really, in theory we could make anything, it's just time and material cost

[njee20]

There's poll data out there for what is in demand if you want to make a certain prototype.

Personally I print quite a few wagons (modern image, principally N, one I've done in O, toying with OO), but only ever ones I want, as I don't think there's enough of a market in kits for me to want to invest dozens (if not hundreds) of hours in CAD, tinkering of print settings etc only to find that no one wants them or a RTR manufacturer ends up releasing them (as has now happened twice!). If people want them then I will sell them, but for me it's not a business at all, and I've no real desire for it to be, I like having things that no one else does, created by me!

 

I don't think there is any one (or even a range) of products out there that are such a slam dunk you'll be selling thousands. Generic items are more freely available from the likes of Thingiverse, and among the small number of narrow gauge modellers how many will want to build kits, and how many will be happy with generic items? That's probably not a common set of behaviours. Conversely, the time required to make a good effort of a specific prototype, not to mention the ancilliaries like wheels, decals etc, mean there is no perfect choice IMO.

 

Personally for me a sprue of parts defeats the purpose of 3D printing; I like to print things in as few pieces as possible (virtually all of my wagon bodies are in one piece), but not everyone likes that. 

Edited September 16, 2021 by njee20

[JimmyBobProductions]

22 minutes ago, njee20 said:

If people want them then I will sell them, but for me it's not a business at all, and I've no real desire for it to be, I like having things that no one else does, created by me!

Honestly I like the thought to of having just things I like making which no one does to and just, making avalible for others. Certainly wouldn't be a normal business if anything did sell decently, still a nice thought though for certain!

 

24 minutes ago, njee20 said:

I don't think there is any one (or even a range) of products out there that are such a slam dunk you'll be selling thousands. Generic items are more freely available from the likes of Thingiverse, and among the small number of narrow gauge modellers how many will want to build kits, and how many will be happy with generic items? That's probably not a common set of behaviours. Conversely, the time required to make a good effort of a specific prototype, not to mention the ancilliaries like wheels, decals etc, mean there is no perfect choice IMO.

Yeah I agree, I said Narrow Gauge specifically as I see more freelance modelling there compared to standard gauge stuff. There's a lot of different prototypes available in kit and print, all really nice so dipping into that would just be the same territory. At the same time printing my own George England or something would be lovely, or heck freelance versions of existing engines with a variety of different options. I suppose generic railway staff, crew, passengers and such is still a good idea in that. Model one 3D human and from there's it's posing and adding specific era clothing and heck maybe even railway specific uniform, plus the time on printing that wouldn't be massive. I suppose I wouldn't know until I make a thing, he prints it and then see what happens.

 

My partner, going on the all in one kit idea, did think about making our own wheel tyres/flanges and printing a plug to go in it, meaning any wheel is possible. However I don't believe there's a place/manafactuer that just does metal wheel tyres? Could in theory cut our own on a lathe or something but might be more work than what it's worth.

 

28 minutes ago, njee20 said:

Personally for me a sprue of parts defeats the purpose of 3D printing; I like to print things in as few pieces as possible (virtually all of my wagon bodies are in one piece), but not everyone likes that. 

It's more the idea of doing it like an actual kit as I know a lot of people like the putting together and painting process more, but I know printing is a very different beast to that. Everyone is different so could tap all areas. Offer a kit in bits and one in full depending on preferences, just because

 

Do want to say I'm not big on it for the business side. I think there's a dream sometimes of owning a model shop and selling our own kits but honestly it's more just seeing what people think of some random ideas generally, the skies the limit and tis a bit of fun at the end of it

[The Johnster]

I think you've correctly identified that printing is ideal for smaller items, and lends itself to freelance 009.  Your problem is that others have already had this idea, and Shapeways' site is not short of examples, and of 'standard gauge' 00 neverwazzas, mightabeens, and 'inspired by/based on'.  3D printing let's your imagination run wild, as it seems does laser cut wood buildings and structures, with all sorts of hyper-ornate items to show of the capability of the tech, but which are not particularly accurate models of anything that really existed; sometimes the porportions are a bit off as well. 

 

I would be in the market for 4mm scale GW autocoach buffers, in their housings, well within the capacity of 'domestic' printers in terms of size, but the edges of the actual buffers need to be rather fine and the shank is relatively thin, so a model that would be structurally strong enough to withstand normal handling might be difficult to produce.  These things are vulnerable to handling mistakes on plastic RTR models; they do stick out a bit, which is why I would be in the market for replacements...

 

I wonder if sometimes 3D producers have unrealistic expectations of the technology.  Printers capable of producing something the size and complexity of, say, a 4mm panelled coach or a locomotive body in fine detail are not cheap or on offer at Currys/PC World, and the idea of covering the cost by making items that you think there is a demand for may be harder than it looks.  Such items are available, but are not complete models, rather scratch build aids, and are usually priced at higher levels than a comparable RTR finished model because one cannot expect the designer to giver things away at a loss to himself after paying Shapeways to print and market them for him.  You seem to have the right approach, that you will print things for yourself and make them available for the rest of us, but the lure of a percieved market demand such as Johnster saying he'd buy a few auto coach buffers may be difficult to resist!

 

A few years ago, when the tech first became available, we were all going to be designing and printing our own models at home and the RTR trade would be a thing of the past.  Hmm.  And the wonder material Graphene was going to change the world.

[JimmyBobProductions]

48 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

I wonder if sometimes 3D producers have unrealistic expectations of the technology.  Printers capable of producing something the size and complexity of, say, a 4mm panelled coach or a locomotive body in fine detail are not cheap or on offer at Currys/PC World, and the idea of covering the cost by making items that you think there is a demand for may be harder than it looks.  Such items are available, but are not complete models, rather scratch build aids, and are usually priced at higher levels than a comparable RTR finished model because one cannot expect the designer to giver things away at a loss to himself after paying Shapeways to print and market them for him.  You seem to have the right approach, that you will print things for yourself and make them available for the rest of us, but the lure of a percieved market demand such as Johnster saying he'd buy a few auto coach buffers may be difficult to resist!

It's the right idea in any thing you want to get into that it won't sell regardless of what you do. I want to be an author and writer but that's going to take a heck of a lot to work out in the end. In the meantime I'll put stuff out and let people enjoy it if they should come by, tis the same with this. My partner does sort of run a repairing and reselling type service with some pretty good success, so only makes sense to expand that? kind of thing. Obviously my idea to make a kit but he has made fences and even a lil' hut to take photos with his models for reselling. Ya' know offering lil' bits and bobs that when someone passes they'll go "Oh, I'll just have one of those! Perfect!".

 

But I totally understand this isn't a new thing, people have been doing this since home printers have come out and thought about all this before. Little late to the party there. Maybe the idea of taking on a commission of just, custom printing bits for people who request it? Like similar to a paint or art commission. Probably cost more in the long run for an individual person, tis all random idea. I'll certainly look into small things though, as there are a few bits I'd like to try anyway. Heck the people idea I still think is a good one

 

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

I think you've correctly identified that printing is ideal for smaller items, and lends itself to freelance 009.  Your problem is that others have already had this idea, and Shapeways' site is not short of examples, and of 'standard gauge' 00 neverwazzas, mightabeens, and 'inspired by/based on'.

Having browsed the NGRM forum (way too much, I really love Narrow Gauge) it seems it's the most common spot for printing really. I've seen a fair bit of N Gauge to for models that just don't exist but not as much. I suppose smaller the scale lends it's well to that, less material and time to print, chassis might be an issue though. Has anyone actually made an all in one kit before for locos or stock? I feel like I've seen a couple but can't remember. When I say all in one, I mean body/parts and the chassis/wheels; maybe a motor to if we're talking loco. Understand it would cost a lot to make in house but, just curious really if it's worked out

[David Bigcheeseplant]

As with anything you want to sell it is probably best to do something you need yourself rather than looking for something to make money on, I have designed a few parts and then 3D printed them as there was nothing I could get from anywhere else, people then started to ask if they could buy what I produced, so started an after market selling parts. That was last year while I was on furlough now being back at work it is hard to get it all fitted in.  I enjoy the design side but the admin, printing, cleaning up and posting the parts out is not enjoyable for me. 

 

Another thing is the quality of what you are selling, many 3D prints are rough or the parts could have been better produced in another medium. Add in time for research, the time it takes to design what you are doing and the logistics or making any kind of money disappear. 

 

David

[njee20]

1 hour ago, JimmyBobProductions said:

Has anyone actually made an all in one kit before for locos or stock? I feel like I've seen a couple but can't remember. When I say all in one, I mean body/parts and the chassis/wheels; maybe a motor to if we're talking loco. Understand it would cost a lot to make in house but, just curious really if it's worked out

That’s how I sell them. Everything other than paint. I do all the artwork and print the decals. I only buy wheels. 
 

 

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I wonder if sometimes 3D producers have unrealistic expectations of the technology.  Printers capable of producing something the size and complexity of, say, a 4mm panelled coach or a locomotive body in fine detail are not cheap or on offer at Currys/PC World, and the idea of covering the cost by making items that you think there is a demand for may be harder than it looks. 

Not sure I agree with that. The detail on offer from cheap home printers is excellent. Generally accurate to ~0.05mm. The difficulty is in producing decent CAD drawings with all the detail, particularly for more intricate parts. 

[The Johnster]

Quite; I'm sure that domestic printers from Curry's/PC World are capable of exquisite detail if the right material and good CAD are provided, but a 4mm scale coach is about 10 inches long and is probably too large to be produced as a single piece item by such a machine.  Asking myself 'what would I use a 3D printer for if I had one and knew how to use it?', I come up with the autocoach buffers, and then start thinking about couplings, panelling sections for overlaying, door handles, hinges, grab rails, ventilators, all of which are available from existing suppliers in the form of brass frets, whitemetal castings, or 3D prints.  I'm not going to buy a 3D printer just to make some autocoach buffers, so the point is academic from my pov; it's cheaper to buy donor coaches on eBay than to bother with a printer.  I suspect many modellers are in this sort of position, and perhaps because of this make unrealistic demands on print producers.

[njee20]

Ok, stop the Curry’s thing. It’s silly.

 

I printed this on a basic domestic printer (in 3 pieces). It’s not very detailed, as I simply scaled up the N gauge CAD to see if it would work. Bogies and all. It does, so I’m going to make it more detailed to suit the larger size. There are home printers coming to market that’ll print these in one piece. OO gauge is easy. In N gauge you’re laughing. 

 

Surely your point is pretty moot though. You’re not being asked what you’d use a printer for. The OP is specifically suggesting a kit of parts, so ability to print in one piece isn’t relevant. 

[JimmyBobProductions]

1 hour ago, njee20 said:

I printed this on a basic domestic printer (in 3 pieces). It’s not very detailed, as I simply scaled up the N gauge CAD to see if it would work. Bogies and all. It does, so I’m going to make it more detailed to suit the larger size. There are home printers coming to market that’ll print these in one piece. OO gauge is easy. In N gauge you’re laughing. 

Honestly for upscaled N that's pretty darn good! I do have to wonder if downscaling OO to N would be good aswell, granted you don't need that much detail but an interesting experiment. Z gauge well, doesn't bare thinking about the posibilities.

 

2 hours ago, njee20 said:

That’s how I sell them. Everything other than paint. I do all the artwork and print the decals. I only buy wheels. 
 

Honestly that's pretty cool, just the idea and thought of home made kits and bits, ah the dream. Seriously though those prints look very nice

 

3 hours ago, David Bigcheeseplant said:

As with anything you want to sell it is probably best to do something you need yourself rather than looking for something to make money on, I have designed a few parts and then 3D printed them as there was nothing I could get from anywhere else, people then started to ask if they could buy what I produced, so started an after market selling parts.

Oh certainly! My partner and I were just spitballing random ideas. Anything that has the possility of being money making takes a lot of time and research to really pull off correctly. But I think I'll print a few small things and see what happens with that. In the mean time make some larger stuff which I'd like to have myself anyway

[njee20]

I think the problem with downsizing becomes wall thicknesses and details being too small to print, or being very fragile, but yes, conceptually it works well!

[JimmyBobProductions]

38 minutes ago, njee20 said:

I think the problem with downsizing becomes wall thicknesses and details being too small to print, or being very fragile, but yes, conceptually it works well!

Something to try out! Out of curiousity what kind of printer do you have? Personally always wanted to a resin one but most are great with the right settings

[njee20]

I’ve got an Elegoo Neptune 2 FDM, and then an Anycubic Photon, Elegoo Mars, Mars 2 Pro and a Saturn, plus a Phrozen Sonic Mega on order. Bit excessive really! 

[Michael Hodgson]

49 minutes ago, njee20 said:

I’ve got an Elegoo Neptune 2 FDM, and then an Anycubic Photon, Elegoo Mars, Mars 2 Pro and a Saturn, plus a Phrozen Sonic Mega on order. Bit excessive really! 

If you running a production line, surely it's easier if they're all the same models?

[njee20]

I’m not running a production line, I just have a few printers. 

[JimmyBobProductions]

22 hours ago, njee20 said:

I’ve got an Elegoo Neptune 2 FDM, and then an Anycubic Photon, Elegoo Mars, Mars 2 Pro and a Saturn, plus a Phrozen Sonic Mega on order. Bit excessive really! 

Blimey quite a few then! I've been tempted by the one of the Elegoo ones for a good while but just don't know if I'd have much use for it outside of printing bits and bobs.

 

We've been testing some prints, small things that are generally apart of a locomotive and they're coming out quite nice. There was one idea to print a single version, as many kit bits as we'd like really in the highest detail setting but then cast it in silicon and resin instead of printing every single one. Unsure if anyone has done that but I can't imagine it hasn't crossed their minds. Don't know if it works out cheaper in the end but there's an idea

[njee20]

What else do they do other than print bits and bobs?! The Mars 2, when they’re discounted to ~£170 is a great printer, highly recommend one! I’ve certainly seen people casting from a printed master, I’m too lazy, just as easy to keep hitting print!

[The Johnster]

You can say that again...

[jonhall]

10 hours ago, JimmyBobProductions said:

. There was one idea to print a single version, as many kit bits as we'd like really in the highest detail setting but then cast it in silicon and resin instead of printing every single one. Unsure if anyone has done that but I can't imagine it hasn't crossed their minds. Don't know if it works out cheaper in the end but there's an idea

 

Thats the approach I took with my Cargowaggon van kits, all the whitemetal parts are 3d print masters, then sent to a Whitemetal caster - its a much more cost and time effective way for it to be done. However it depends how you value your time, and how you amortise the cost of the printer (and your time learning how to use it). 

 

Jon

[JimmyBobProductions]

8 hours ago, jonhall said:

 

Thats the approach I took with my Cargowaggon van kits, all the whitemetal parts are 3d print masters, then sent to a Whitemetal caster - its a much more cost and time effective way for it to be done.

Didn't consider white metal, but the quality doesn't always come out great for it I think? White metal to me has always been a tad rough at times, I quite like the astectic for old wargaming miniatures with it. Have to show some photos if ya' want, sounds to be just as good of an idea

 

Going off of a lil' tid bit I said earlier, does anyone know a manufactuer that does just the metal tyres/flanges for wheels? Obviously for models, or do companies that make driving wheels tend to do them in house. Food for thought, more so if there's printed spokes to go in it, humour me

[jonhall]

23 minutes ago, JimmyBobProductions said:

Didn't consider white metal, but the quality doesn't always come out great for it I think? White metal to me has always been a tad rough at times, I quite like the astectic for old wargaming miniatures with it. Have to show some photos if ya' want, sounds to be just as good of an idea

 

 

Quality of the whitemetal depends on a number of things, not least of which, the quality of the master, and if the mould maker and caster know their business. This is what the output for my Cargowaggon in cruel closeup - you can see there is an artifact of the 3d printing in the spring leaf, but that's the problem with 3D printing, NOT whitemetal!

 

 

 

 

Shameless plug: I still have 6 of the single vans for sale see - 

Jon

 

 

[JimmyBobProductions]

On 18/09/2021 at 18:05, jonhall said:

Quality of the whitemetal depends on a number of things, not least of which, the quality of the master, and if the mould maker and caster know their business. This is what the output for my Cargowaggon in cruel closeup - you can see there is an artifact of the 3d printing in the spring leaf, but that's the problem with 3D printing, NOT whitemetal!

Honestly I take it back, that looks lovely!

 

We've been testing up a model of a locomotive I've made, based on an actual prototype. I won't say what, just because. And it's honsetly come out great already! The sizing is a bit off and some of the parts need thickening as they were coming out broken, which to be fair is an easy fix. I'm using blender for the modelling process, but getting specific measurements in there is tricky, anyone know of a add-on that allows it to be more percise? I don't think many use Blender fo this process to be fair

 

Maybe going in with a loco is a bit soon but if it can work, then why not really Maybe if I get one of my 3D models of a coach or wagon working first. Will keep updated on that, all enjoyment at the end of it