N Gauge Class 45

[Bomag]

1 hour ago, Roy L S said:

 

I respectfully disagree that the V2 had less diverse usage and likely appeal than a Class 45! 

 

The V2s were used from Scotland down to London, I think some parts of East Anglia, across to Banbury and Oxford and even down on the Southern for a time as replacements for (I believe) West Country/Battle of Britain Class which had teething troubles. You could run one from the mid 1930s all the way through to the early "noughties" in preservation, a number of livery variations. In terms of usage, fast fitted freights, unfitted minerals, parcels, mail, express passenger, semi-fast passenger and local turns on occasion - at least as diverse in terms of usage as a "Peak". A V2 to current standards would fly off the shelves, especially assuming sound ready.

 

Don't get me wrong I would love a Peak, but you massively underestimate what the V2 was about if the above is what you think.

 

Regards

 

Roy

 

 

 

As a mainly ER modeller I would buy several V2 if an updated version is available (currently got a BR black and BR green version) but in no way could a V2 be considered as wide ranging as peaks which were ubiquitous in various parts of their life on the LMR/ScR from London to Waverley and St Enoch, Northern England from Newcastle to Holyhead and SW/NE down to Plymouth (and beyond?) . As much as I like my O6 and O7 I would not say that expect a second run. 

 

As for your other comment both the green and blue versions of the Class 31were the older model and the ones still available are the more expensive refurbished ones (although I cannot see a LL version only the two railfreight versions).

 

As for the suggestion of more EMUs, I would love them 303, 305, 308, 309, 310/312. A bit niche though - looking forward to my 321s and 313s from Revolution, but the problem with EMUs is when asked many people say 'not those EMUs, my EMUs'.  Even looking at 3rd rail EMUs there was limited types which were in all three divisions -CIG and VEP.

[Roy L S]

8 minutes ago, Bomag said:

 

As a mainly ER modeller I would buy several V2 if an updated version is available (currently got a BR black and BR green version) but in no way could a V2 be considered as wide ranging as peaks which were ubiquitous in various parts of their life on the LMR/ScR from London to Waverley and St Enoch, Northern England from Newcastle to Holyhead and SW/NE down to Plymouth (and beyond?) . As much as I like my O6 and O7 I would not say that expect a second run. 

 

OK perhaps not quite so widely seen, but certainly the V2 was far from just an ECML loco and in terms of the type of traffic it could be seen hauling, every bit as diverse I would contend.

8 minutes ago, Bomag said:

 

As for your other comment both the green and blue versions of the Class 31were the older model and the ones still available are the more expensive refurbished ones (although I cannot see a LL version only the two railfreight versions). 

I don't think that's right, a quick search turned up the latest sound model (unsurprisingly sold out!) in BR Green, and I am sure BR blue was an option too. I have the first incarnation of the "new" Class 31 and that as far as I am aware has a different (can motor) 6 pin DCC chassis rather than coreless motor Next 18 chassis of the most recent.

 

Graham Farish - 371-111ASF - Class 31/1 D5616 BR Green Sound (burevalleymodels.com)

 

8 minutes ago, Bomag said:

 

As for the suggestion of more EMUs, I would love them 303, 305, 308, 309, 310/312. A bit niche though - looking forward to my 321s and 313s from Revolution, but the problem with EMUs is when asked many people say 'not those EMUs, my EMUs'.  Even looking at 3rd rail EMUs there was limited types which were in all three divisions -CIG and VEP.

 

EMUs is a difficult one for sure but I can't help thinking some of the older 2 car ones like the 2Bil would be very likely to find a few "Rule 1" buyers like me.

 

Roy

[Bomag]

44 minutes ago, Roy L S said:

I don't think that's right, a quick search turned up the latest sound model (unsurprisingly sold out!) in BR Green, and I am sure BR blue was an option too. I have the first incarnation of the "new" Class 31 and that as far as I am aware has a different (can motor) 6 pin DCC chassis rather than coreless motor Next 18 chassis of the most recent.

 

Graham Farish - 371-111ASF - Class 31/1 D5616 BR Green Sound (burevalleymodels.com)

 

Roy

 

Sorry I don't understand, the fact that a model has a 'Next 18' chassis has no bearing on whether its a refurbished loco - 111ASF, 112ASF and 113ASF are sound fitted un-refurbished Class 31s (is 111ASF even a 31 or class 30?) - most retailers I checked has the refurbished railfreight locos at a higher price.

[woodenhead]

47 minutes ago, Bomag said:

 

Sorry I don't understand, the fact that a model has a 'Next 18' chassis has no bearing on whether its a refurbished loco - 111ASF, 112ASF and 113ASF are sound fitted un-refurbished Class 31s (is 111ASF even a 31 or class 30?) - most retailers I checked has the refurbished railfreight locos at a higher price.

Afaik  there have been three incarnations of the 31 under Bachmann, a non DCC ready version in 2010, a DCC 6 pin in various liveries and recently a Next 18 in various liveries.

 

I bought a banger blue 31 with Next 18 Sound fitted earlier this year and there have been green versions too.

[njee20]

I think Bomag is talking about models of prototypes that have been refurbished, rather than a model that is from a refurbished tooling...?

[The Pilotman]

3 hours ago, Bomag said:

 

As a mainly ER modeller I would buy several V2 if an updated version is available (currently got a BR black and BR green version) but in no way could a V2 be considered as wide ranging as peaks which were ubiquitous in various parts of their life on the LMR/ScR from London to Waverley and St Enoch, Northern England from Newcastle to Holyhead and SW/NE down to Plymouth (and beyond?) . 

Certainly beyond; Penzance and Newquay were frequently visited by classes 45 and 46 (Laira had an allocation of the latter) and you could also include South Wales, East Anglia, Scarborough, Paddington, Eastleigh and Brighton as places where class 45s could reliably turn up at various times during their lives. 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Western Aviator

[fezza]

I doubt there were many places on main lines in England that Peaks didn't get to at some point. Even the 44s got to the south west on railtours in the latter days.

 

The availability of Peaks in 00 has even made me think about going over to the dark side of 4mm scale...

[Roy L S]

2 hours ago, Bomag said:

 

Sorry I don't understand, the fact that a model has a 'Next 18' chassis has no bearing on whether its a refurbished loco - 111ASF, 112ASF and 113ASF are sound fitted un-refurbished Class 31s (is 111ASF even a 31 or class 30?) - most retailers I checked has the refurbished railfreight locos at a higher price.

 

 

The sound fitted BR Green and Blue models are all from the same Farish production run and sold through much faster than the remaining more modern/refurbished variants which can still be found easily, often at significant discounts.

 

Here is the You-Tube promotional video from Bachmann 6 liveries in total: -

 

Closer Look | Graham Farish Class 31 SOUND FITTED - YouTube

 

[D9020 Nimbus]

For modellers interested in the steam era, the LNER needs more than "Peaks" for a well-rounded stud. While the Sonic J50 will help, a passenger tank loco is really needed. As ever with the LNER, the problem is—which one? LNER "standard" locos were not always that widespread, and pre-grouping types were often spread around. The A5, L1, V1/3, N2 and N7 could all have cases made for them — the only one that Bachmann have done in OO is the V1/V3 — and that was a long time ago. The J39 has been done, but for other J classes you're looking at Union Mills.

 

The LMS is slightly better covered but could do with the Fowler or Stanier 2-6-4T. Both done by Hornby in OO.

 

By comparison, the GWR is well-covered. The only major classes of general applicability missing are the large Prairie and the 43xx Mogul. The latter was on DJM's very long list, and the former was done by Farish a long time ago. Both have been done recently in OO by Dapol, so…

 

The Southern will look better when the new M7 and the light Pacific finally appear, although there are still a lot of gaps (though all of Bachmann's current OO range have appeared in N… both of them…)

 

In diesels and electrics,  models that Bachmann have done in OO that would be useful are IMHO the 45/46, the later body style 25, perhaps the later 24 and the 25/0. Units? The 117, "Thumper", 2-HAP and 2-EPB spring to mind; possibly the Derby Lightweight (the original one as the 108 has been done) or the 105…

 

The situation regarding steam-era pre-nationalisation coaches is much better than a few years ago, but there is little "secondary" rolling stock available, only the GWR and SR being covered here. Again, virtually all the "missing" items have been done in OO, but by Hornby.

[fezza]

I'd certainly vote for a 105 and a 117 but I think it is about as likely as my dog learning to read. Farish seem reluctant to even reissue the popular 101 in regional or refurb white/blue.

 

It is good to see the new 108s but they seem to be sticking to the shelves. I paid £79 for my last two car 108. The three car is now north of £200. I bought one (and only one) but you have to be really into bog units to pay that.

 

Peaks have the advantage that they will sell and there are so many namers that could be released 

[Bomag]

24 minutes ago, Roy L S said:

 

 

The sound fitted BR Green and Blue models are all from the same Farish production run and sold through much faster than the remaining more modern/refurbished variants which can still be found easily, often at significant discounts.

 

Here is the You-Tube promotional video from Bachmann 6 liveries in total: -

 

Closer Look | Graham Farish Class 31 SOUND FITTED - YouTube

 

 

As mentioned above Farish did two different version of the Class 31 at the same time one version (three models) covered the class from conversion to the late 80's the other (two liveries) for about 10 years from the mid 80's. I am still not getting your point - the inference seams to be that models of 1970's  'banger blue' locos sell better than 1980's liveries. but since banger blue was still a significant livery in the 1980's I would expect that somebody buying a railfreight livery version would also buy a blue version as well - I have both blue and RFG liveries. In fact I would not mind a sound RF version to round off the trio but I cannot fined one from from somewhere I trust with more than a 14% discount.

 

Similarly, if they do a revised peak I would expect them to do versions with both the revised front and with head boxes, selling out the latter would not mean the 1980's version is not popular.

[woodenhead]

3 minutes ago, fezza said:

I'd certainly vote for a 105 and a 117 but I think it is about as likely as my dog learning to read. Farish seem reluctant to even reissue the popular 101 in regional or refurb white/blue.

 

It is good to see the new 108s but they seem to be sticking to the shelves. I paid £79 for my last two car 108. The three car is now north of £200. I bought one (and only one) but you have to be really into bog units to pay that.

 

Peaks have the advantage that they will sell and there are so many namers that could be released 

I've got three 108s and a 101 - will have to see what happens with the white/blue on before I succumb - if something else comes along then I'd rather have something different.

 

Peak namers - how many models do you think Farish will make!!  We have options on noses / classes so far it's been two noses (44 or centre) in green or blue.  There might be a market but looking at the class 40 with three nose variations and two liveries they are not exactly setting the world on fire with variations per release so multiples of namer 45s will be a non starter - lets get the noses done first, I doubt there will be special commissions unless Rails are in the market for n gauge specials.

[Roy L S]

22 minutes ago, Bomag said:

 

As mentioned above Farish did two different version of the Class 31 at the same time one version (three models) covered the class from conversion to the late 80's the other (two liveries) for about 10 years from the mid 80's. I am still not getting your point - the inference seams to be that models of 1970's  'banger blue' locos sell better than 1980's liveries. but since banger blue was still a significant livery in the 1980's I would expect that somebody buying a railfreight livery version would also buy a blue version as well - I have both blue and RFG liveries. In fact I would not mind a sound RF version to round off the trio but I cannot fined one from from somewhere I trust with more than a 14% discount.

 

Similarly, if they do a revised peak I would expect them to do versions with both the revised front and with head boxes, selling out the latter would not mean the 1980's version is not popular.

The question was from Chris Morris who reflected on what sells best, steam or diesel, more of a reflection than a question possibly.

 

I responded that from what retailers have told me, it is steam-diesel transition era models that sell through first (so late crest steam and green diesels) followed by BR blue. This is certainly borne out by availability of new sound Class 31s (or lack thereof as far as both those liveries are concerned). The other liveries are still available. BR blue is typically associated with very late 60s through 70s TOPS into the mid 80s, yes absolutely, for a time some of the blue locos ran side by side with later re-liveries of the same classes, others like Class 24s and 25s were withdrawn.

 

Regards

 

Roy

[fezza]

34 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

 

 

Peak namers - how many models do you think Farish will make!!  We have options on noses / classes so far it's been two noses (44 or centre) in green or blue.  There might be a market but looking at the class 40 with three nose variations and two liveries they are not exactly setting the world on fire with variations per release so multiples of namer 45s will be a non starter - lets get the noses done first, I doubt there will be special commissions unless Rails are in the market for n gauge specials.

Yes, you might be right, although Bachmann have produced multiple Peak namers in 00. Presumably they think there is a market? Agree about getting the nose variations 

[John M Upton]

I was lucky with DMU's, I managed to pick up a modern tooling blue/grey three car 101 from the Bachmann returns stand at Ally Pally for just fifty quid some years back and later paid about £85 for a two car.  The prices being asked now for the same tooling DMU's are just beyond justification, a three car 101 really should not be anything more than £140 at todays prices.

[Roy L S]

16 hours ago, John M Upton said:

I was lucky with DMU's, I managed to pick up a modern tooling blue/grey three car 101 from the Bachmann returns stand at Ally Pally for just fifty quid some years back and later paid about £85 for a two car.  The prices being asked now for the same tooling DMU's are just beyond justification, a three car 101 really should not be anything more than £140 at todays prices.

There is a new run of 2 car 101s due Jan/Feb 2022 which includes BR green, I have to admit I am baulking slightly at the £199.95 RRP too, and even allowing max 15% discount it is still a shade under £170. I think this is the third run from the tooling so I suspect that cost is amortised, still if I want one I'll have to suck it up I guess, that is unless RevolutioN do announce a 117 before!

 

Returning to the Peak, I have a 44 and 45 stashed away somewhere and I do recall that I bought the 45 at a bargain basement price from Hattons. While I think we are all agreed on this thread that the "Peak" is very much missed and a strong candidate for re-tool to modern standards, probably best to not get too carried away with expecting a demand consistent with the expense of tooling for a whole list of detail variants, just cater for a core of more common ones.

 

Roy

[woodenhead]

36 minutes ago, Roy L S said:

There is a new run of 2 car 101s due Jan/Feb 2022 which includes BR green, I have to admit I am baulking slightly at the £199.95 RRP too, and even allowing max 15% discount it is still a shade under £170. I think this is the third run from the tooling so I suspect that cost is amortised, still if I want one I'll have to suck it up I guess, that is unless RevolutioN do announce a 117 before!

 

Returning to the Peak, I have a 44 and 45 stashed away somewhere and I do recall that I bought the 45 at a bargain basement price from Hattons. While I think we are all agreed on this thread that the "Peak" is very much missed and a strong candidate for re-tool to modern standards, probably best to not get too carried away with expecting a demand consistent with the expense of tooling for a whole list of detail variants, just cater for a core of more common ones.

 

Roy

I would be wary of amortised in how Kader works, I am guessing each run of a model has to stand up against all the other models and have a rate of return commensurate with such. We also don't know the batch sizes of first, second and third runs of models.  I think Dapol are more inclined to that form of pricing which is why their coaches and wagons don't appear to have increased much in price over the years.

 

For the Peaks, I would expect more than one nose type, they did it with the 40 having all three types in the range, the 44 apart from one celebrity is one nose, the 46 is two, but the 45 might be the one that loses out 6 variants - split/doors, split/no doors, centre with small split, centre, sealed, sealed with headlight, that sounds to many for the size of market.

[Roy L S]

37 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

I would be wary of amortised in how Kader works, I am guessing each run of a model has to stand up against all the other models and have a rate of return commensurate with such. We also don't know the batch sizes of first, second and third runs of models.  I think Dapol are more inclined to that form of pricing which is why their coaches and wagons don't appear to have increased much in price over the years.

 

For the Peaks, I would expect more than one nose type, they did it with the 40 having all three types in the range, the 44 apart from one celebrity is one nose, the 46 is two, but the 45 might be the one that loses out 6 variants - split/doors, split/no doors, centre with small split, centre, sealed, sealed with headlight, that sounds to many for the size of market.

 

I assume it will still be the case that regardless of what it is (loco or 16T mineral) standard Farish production runs are 1008 of each livery variant and for "specials" like collectors Club 504.

 

I agree with your thinking as regards tooling differences, I should think nose-ends will be a different tool for each variant (hopefully no complex slides or inserts as I think it just plugs in on the 40?).

 

This thread prompted me to dig out my Class 45 D55 "Royal Signals", I had forgotten (bogie width issue aside) just what a lovely loco it is. OK it is not quite up to today's standard detail and feature wise, but a lovely chassis with big flywheels and a chunky motor, I wonder how much of a faff it would be to chip it.... Am I right in recalling that there were no more runs of these Peaks because of damage to the tooling or is my memory playing tricks?

 

Regards

 

Roy

[Revolution Mike]

On 20/09/2021 at 18:25, fezza said:

A modern spec Peak must be the No1 requested item in N gauge, yet no manufacturers seem interested. Instead we get more sheds and EMUs.

Hoe do you know that no one else is interested? A more likely conclusion should be that no other manufacturer is prepared to risk duplicating something in the Farish range. 
 

I’m not sure which EMUs you are referring to as Dapol haven’t done any and Farish only have the 350/450 and the forthcoming 319. So that leaves Kato’s 800 and our 390, 321 and forthcoming 313. Our models happen because customers want them and we’re able to take the risk on things that perhaps some of the larger manufacturers couldn’t risk. 
 

Even if the Peaks are desirable (and I think they clearly are) the reality is that Farish have produced them and for anyone wanting to model pretty much anywhere over the last 60-70 years needs some flavour of MUs. 

 

Cheers Mike

[Crepello]

On 21/09/2021 at 10:52, John M Upton said:

Whilst I reckon a new Peak(s) are in the queue somewhere (they have an 1Co-Co-1 chassis in the Class 40 so we know they can do it) I still think a new shell for the earlier body style Class 25 is more likely first.

I assume you mean the old Poole 25/3 above. I've made this point before but someone said the chassis from the 25/2 would need a re-tool.

[Kris]

For all calling for a new EMU, to my eyes they all look the same (well the older ones from the Southern Region anyway). 

[Monkersson]

5 minutes ago, Kris said:

For all calling for a new EMU, to my eyes they all look the same (well the older ones from the Southern Region anyway). 

You could say at all type 2's look the same, all Peaks looks the same, 47's look like 56, 81-86 all look alike ...

 

I'd much rather have a new MU than a retool of a previously released loco

[fezza]

2 hours ago, Revolution Mike said:

Hoe do you know that no one else is interested? A more likely conclusion should be that no other manufacturer is prepared to risk duplicating something in the Farish range. 
 

I’m not sure which EMUs you are referring to as Dapol haven’t done any and Farish only have the 350/450 and the forthcoming 319. So that leaves Kato’s 800 and our 390, 321 and forthcoming 313. Our models happen because customers want them and we’re able to take the risk on things that perhaps some of the larger manufacturers couldn’t risk. 
 

Even if the Peaks are desirable (and I think they clearly are) the reality is that Farish have produced them and for anyone wanting to model pretty much anywhere over the last 60-70 years needs some flavour of MUs. 

 

Cheers Mike

Each to their own, but I doubt they'll be grown men in tears at St. Pancras when the last 319 is withdrawn. I don't see hundreds of people chasing mileage on 800s either. Plus most Peak bashers must be well into their 50s now with the disposable income to buy them.

 

I  think the only units that ever attracted much of a real world following were Pacers and even that was in a wry semi-ironic way.

 

Yes we need units for realistic operations, but for goodness sake give us a model of one of the most popular diesel locos of all time. 

 

 

[Revolution Mike]

44 minutes ago, fezza said:

Each to their own, but I doubt they'll be grown men in tears at St. Pancras when the last 319 is withdrawn. I don't see hundreds of people chasing mileage on 800s either. Plus most Peak bashers must be well into their 50s now with the disposable income to buy them.

 

I  think the only units that ever attracted much of a real world following were Pacers and even that was in a wry semi-ironic way.

 

Yes we need units for realistic operations, but for goodness sake give us a model of one of the most popular diesel locos of all time.

 

None of which is a counter to what I said.  You're just saying you want a Peak and believe that so will others! I don't disagree with you but that isn't the decision making that a manufacturer has to make. And as I said the rationale for investment will differ across manufacturers anyway.

 

I'm not sure what relevance you think that "real world" following of particular traction is to model railway production anyway - there are plenty of modellers not massively interested in bashing and vice versa plenty of bashers with no interest in modellers (probably more bashers with little interest in models than the other way round IME).

 

My point was that Peaks have been available from Farish previously and also from another manufacturer's perspective why it would be very risky to tool up a new Peak (given part of the market will have been satisfied and that you have no idea whether Farish have a new chassis Peak nearly ready for arrival!).

[woodenhead]

49 minutes ago, fezza said:

Each to their own, but I doubt they'll be grown men in tears at St. Pancras when the last 319 is withdrawn. I don't see hundreds of people chasing mileage on 800s either. Plus most Peak bashers must be well into their 50s now with the disposable income to buy them.

 

I  think the only units that ever attracted much of a real world following were Pacers and even that was in a wry semi-ironic way.

 

Yes we need units for realistic operations, but for goodness sake give us a model of one of the most popular diesel locos of all time. 

 

 

I'd be sad to see anyone in tears at the passing of an inanimate item such as a hulking great Sulzer 1-co-co-1.

 

People want all kinds of models and the 800, the 319 and the 91/Mk4 have as much place in the modelling world as a Class 45.

 

I have no doubt that Farish are working on one, they just are not going to mention it until it is at delivery stage which is their modus operandi now as per other companies.  Was I hoping to hear about one earlier this year, yes, was I then hoping something would appear at Tings, again yes.  They will come again eventually and they will be Next 18 with lights and sound, they will sell well and people will go back to asking where the Next18 08/20/24/25/37/47/55 is or Mk1s.