LNWR and MR join station somewhere?

[Guest WM183]

Hi folks.

 

I am debating swapping prototypes a bit, from Western Region BR around 1950 to somewhere in the northwest sometime in the 1910-1920 era. I am interested in both the LNWR and the Midland, as I love the differences in their coaching stock and livery, and I love tank locomotives. I have enough research material on both coaching stock and wagons to help get me off to a good start scratch building, and in particular, pre-grouping locos are much more "scratchbuilder friendly" than BR standards or other later types that are simply awash in outside valve gear, pumps, injectors, plumbing, and other apparatus. As Brexit has impacted my modelling a bit, scratchbuilding is much cheaper (and funner!) for me, as all I need to do is order wheels, buffers, and a few odds and ends. The rest I can hopefully make in-house. 

Anyway, very short question made long. I model in 7mm, and do not have huge space, so a small urban terminus, or busy suburban station, is about my limit - again, another plus for smaller pre-grouping prototypes. So... any suggestions on a small to middling-sized shared station somewhere? I know that MR and LNWR had joint trackage agreements, wagon pooling, and so on before many of the other roads around them did so.

Tilbury and Webb tank locomotives dancing in my dreams!

Amanda

[Mol_PMB]

Interesting question! For much of their history there was little collaboration between the Midland and LNWR, and a lot of duplication of routes and stations serving the same places. 

The Midland was more likely to have joint lines with the GNR and/or GCR than to share with the LNWR.

However, this might be of interest, it covers the Nuneaton to Coalville and Moira lines which were LNWR/MR joint:

http://www.nuneatonhistory.com/on-london--north-western-railway-lines.html

Hope that helps

Mol

[Edwardian]

 

A real joint MR and LNW branch line would be just along the LNW line from Nuneaton: Enderby in Leicestershire. 

 

This seems to have been a goods branch, terminating in extensive quarry workings, but, with a siding along the way to serve a brickworks.

 

You might re-imagine the line as having a passenger station.  This might be sited south of the Seine Lane bridge, which, with the footpath bridge to the south, could nicely bracket the scenic portion of the layout.

 

Passenger services run Fiddle/Cassette Yard to the platform, but the line continues beyond to serve the quarries represented by a second Fiddle/Cassette Yard, while brick traffic comes in from the opposite end to the quarry, so it can be marshalled in outgoing goods. 

 

 

EDIT: Here is the bridge over the former branch at Seine Lane.  The suggested station site would be in the cutting to the left of the bridge:

 

 

And here is the bridge from the proposed site of the station:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Edwardian
Pictures

[Reorte]

Perhaps not quite what you're after but at Buxton the LNWR and Midland stations were right next to each other (and built to the same design, the LNWR one is the surviving current station). Ticks your urban terminus too.

[Guest WM183]

Oh thanks folks! The Leicester branch line sounds fun, as does Buxton; I wonder if I can do the latter justice? I found a map of it, and it looks like It would be a lot of fun to build, though I will have to do some uh... selective compression:

 

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, WM183 said:

Anyway, very short question made long. I model in 7mm, and do not have huge space, so a small urban terminus, or busy suburban station, is about my limit - again, another plus for smaller pre-grouping prototypes. So... any suggestions on a small to middling-sized shared station somewhere? I know that MR and LNWR had joint trackage agreements, wagon pooling, and so on before many of the other roads around them did so.

 

OK, so not Birmingham New Street then!

 

There's the whole Ashby & Nuneaton Joint Line - part of which is now the Battlefield Line. There were plenty of places where the LNWR exercised running powers over the Midland, or vice-versa, so you could make a choice based on whether you prefer LNWR or Midland signalling and station architecture. 

[MR Chuffer]

Here's an idea, have you considered Blackburn? At the turn ofthe century, there were at least 2 direct trains a day to London, more to Manchester, and those were Midland. And then there were L&Y coaches via the LNWR to Euston; and GN via Halifax to Kings Cross. How times have changed with just an hourly service to Manchester now (and Preston - Todmorden)

 

It was a very busy place, cotton central, I have some coal traffic figures, mostly came from Wigan. L&YR, Midland and LNWR shared the main station and all had goods offices there but the LNWR didn't forward traffic beyond that because it would go via Preston northwards or find another way to Yorkshire.

 

So imagine a LNWR terminus for passenger services from Liverpool, Manchester and from Chorley over their own line and some MR interaction. But they weren't the best of friends, the L&Y was friends with both and therefore a better bet.

Edited September 21, 2021 by MR Chuffer

[Guest WM183]

Hi Chuffer,

I had not considered Blackburn, mostly because I didn't know about it! I will research it some more. That sounds like a model-maker's dream =D 

All three sharing one station! Pinch me. It's further north, for more dreariness too...

Amanda

Edited September 21, 2021 by WM183

[PenrithBeacon]

And you could do the Stockport, Timperley and Altrincham Railway section of the CLC which had Northenden and Baguley stations. The GCR was a constituent also along with the MR & GNR. The LNWR had running rights over most of the ST&A.

[MR Chuffer]

It was a complete coach and wagon fest; my own line is further up beyond Colne (L&Y to that point) on the Barnoldswick branch in MR territory, which still received L&Y passenger trains.

 

Have a couple of decent reference books and a mountain of reference material if you want to PM.

[Guest WM183]

14 minutes ago, MR Chuffer said:

It was a complete coach and wagon fest; my own line is further up beyond Colne (L&Y to that point) on the Barnoldswick branch in MR territory, which still received L&Y passenger trains.

 

Have a couple of decent reference books and a mountain of reference material if you want to PM.

 

Hi Chuffer,

I did PM! Thank you for the offer!

Amanda

[Paul H Vigor]

LNWR (and GWR) met the Midland Railway at Hereford.

[Michael Hodgson]

The LNWR station at Rugby was called Rugby Midland (to distinguish it from the GCR station). 

It was terminus of the MR branch line from Leicester.

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The LNWR station at Rugby was called Rugby Midland (to distinguish it from the GCR station). 

It was terminus of the MR branch line from Leicester.

 

Certainly not in LNWR days! In fact, I think it was only "Midland" in BR days. That MR "branch line" was one of the earlies main lines - the Midland Counties Railway, opened in 1840 and part of the first railway route to Scotland, via Derby, Normanton, York, and Newcastle. 

 

But Rugby does not fit the OP's criteria, being neither small nor a terminus*.

 

*Except in so far as any through station can have trains terminating.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Compound2632

[Guest WM183]

It seems like something along the lines of Buxton or Blackburn may be the ticket - as I said earlier, selectively compressed of course!

Thank you so much guys. The knowledge possessed by members here, and your willingness to share it, never ceases to amaze me.

Amanda

[CKPR]

Now that there have been some sensible suggestions, I can offer the last two words on the topic of LNWR & MR stations  - Carlisle Citadel !

[Regularity]

10 minutes ago, CKPR said:

I can offer the last two words on the topic

No.

You can't.

[Caley Jim]

4 hours ago, CKPR said:

Now that there have been some sensible suggestions, I can offer the last two words on the topic of LNWR & MR stations  - Carlisle Citadel !

But then there would be 5 other companies involved!

 

Jim

[TheSignalEngineer]

Walsall was an LNWR station, being primarily served by the South Staffordshire line from the GWR at Dudley through Lichfield City to join the Midland at Wichnor Junction for the last few miles into Burton on Trent, and the Cannock line from Ryecroft to Rugeley. There were LNWR lines from the South Staffs at Pleck Junction joining the  Grand junction line to Birmingham at Bescot and Wolverhampton at Darlaston Junction. It also had connections both ways from the Midland's Water Orton to Wolverhampton line coming in at Ryecroft Junction. There was an area of sidings south of the station which pre-grouping included an engine shed which was known as Midland Yard. The yard itself lasted until recent times. Stopping passenger trains from Birmingham to Walsall via the Midland route ran until c1964.

[Compound2632]

40 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Walsall was an LNWR station, being primarily served by the South Staffordshire line from the GWR at Dudley through Lichfield City to join the Midland at Wichnor Junction for the last few miles into Burton on Trent, and the Cannock line from Ryecroft to Rugeley. There were LNWR lines from the South Staffs at Pleck Junction joining the  Grand junction line to Birmingham at Bescot and Wolverhampton at Darlaston Junction. It also had connections both ways from the Midland's Water Orton to Wolverhampton line coming in at Ryecroft Junction. There was an area of sidings south of the station which pre-grouping included an engine shed which was known as Midland Yard. The yard itself lasted until recent times. Stopping passenger trains from Birmingham to Walsall via the Midland route ran until c1964.

 

Walsall is a particularly interesting example of competition then cooperation between the two largest pre-grouping companies. After the opening of the Midland's Wolverhampton, Walsall and Water Orton line in 1879, Midland passenger trains between Birmingham and Wolverhampton ran into Walsall from the north, with a reversal, while LNWR trains did the same, from the south. Following the working agreement between the two companies in 1908, much faff was spared as some Midland trains ran via the LNWR route between Wolverhampton and Walsall, and some LNWR trains via the Midland route, cutting out the reversal. Midland goods trains not calling at Walsall used an east-west link line to the north of the station.

 

The Midland shed at Walsall, Pleck, was an important outstation shed of Saltley, with a number of goods engines allocated - not just for  the Wolverhampton and Water Orton directions but also to work goods trains over the LNWR line to Dudley, where the Midland had its own goods station, just north of the LNWR / GWR passenger station. 

 

I came across this entertaining snippet from the MR Superintendent of the Line’s Circular No. 785 of 26 February 1898:

[extract from Midland Railway Study Centre Item No. 05525.]

 

The Midland line to Water Orton ran through Sutton Park, a large area of woodland and heathland that had become a popular beauty spot for day trips by the urban masses by mid-Victorian times, much the the alarm of the well-to-do local inhabitants (not much has changed, I can tell you). There was considerable opposition to the idea of a railway cutting across the Park but the Warden and Society (the oligarchic local government) seem to have been bought off - article here. More recent research reveals that local opposition may have been influenced by the fact that the Rector was a LNWR shareholder, having been involved in promotion of the LNWR branch from Aston to Sutton Coldfield, opened in 1862 (later extended to Lichfield). 

 

In the mid-19th century, the LNWR's shareholders included an influential group of high Anglican Tories, many with military backgrounds, whereas the Midland was  dominated by Nonconformist Liberals.

[PenrithBeacon]

I think this is the area in question. The map is the 1912-13 revision

[Compound2632]

Yes, the Midland engine shed at Pleck, at the bottom of the map, with the Midland goods yard in the top right corner - laid out very characteristically with pairs of sidings separated by wide cartage ways. The goods shed on the western side of the line is marked GWR & L&NWR Goods Sheds - the Great Western had running powers for goods trains to Walsall from Dudley over the LNWR and also over the Midland from Wolverhampton. According to Bob Yate, The Midland Railway Route from Wolverhampton (Oakwood Press, 2018) the Great Western trains were worked by 0-6-0STs, nicknamed "Fatty Greenies" by the LNWR men.

 

There were more LNWR goods sheds and yards either side of the station. The LNWR engine shed, Ryecroft, was north of the station, in the angle between the LNWR South Staffordshire and Cannock lines, which were themselves within the angle of the Midland Water Orton and Wolverhampton lines.

[MR Chuffer]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

In the mid-19th century, the LNWR's shareholders included an influential group of high Anglican Tories, many with military backgrounds, whereas the Midland was  dominated by Nonconformist Liberals.

I always wondered what drew me to the Midland, what with their elevation of third class passengers to more comfortable seating and rainproof carriages, Pullman car introduction and other progressive policies and ideas that smacked to me of free thinkers and nonconformist liberalism!

[Reorte]

On 22/09/2021 at 10:52, WM183 said:

It seems like something along the lines of Buxton or Blackburn may be the ticket - as I said earlier, selectively compressed of course!
 

I think compression will be inevitable, it can be all about what you want to select from the prototype. Easier said than done of course, hard to get over the desire to somehow fit it all in in a way that would only be possible with a Tardis. The answer might be to invent something smaller and fictional based on the real-world examples that tweak your interest, that way there may be less of the nagging "it's not quite right because I've left this and that out" feeling.

[Guest WM183]

Hi Reorte,

Oh deffo! I plan to freelance my station a bit. I have learned for example that Tilbury tanks only were used around London, yet I may have them show up anyway, even if my layout is "Somewhere in the Industrial North". I'll come up with a plausible, but fictional, location and track plan, and now I need to find some 1/43 minis of Edwardian-period peoples.

Ee!

Amanda