French dockside railways, under German control WW2

[Royal42]

I am planning to build a dockside diorama of a French port, possibly Brest, St. Nazair or Lorient and am looking for information on the types of locos, rolling stock and track that would have been found at these ports in the 1940's.  Being a dockside, I am presuming that the track would be sunk in the ground.  Can anyone please advise whether the locos and rolling stock would have been all French or a mix of French and German etc?

 

Can anyone please let me know of any links to images and scenes of these areas around the wartime period?  I would like to get the track layout correct and also the dockside buildings, warehouses and cranes to look correct also.

 

cheers,
Mike

[Andy Hayter]

I will see what I can find but photos of railways during WW2 were understandably rather rare - restricted availability of film,  strictures on taking pictures of logistics items etc.   Pictures of docks will be even less common given that all of them would have been under military control.

[Andy Hayter]

You may be able to pick something out of the wreckage in this shot of Brest

 

https://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=262

 

Locos would most likely be French this far west but I would not discount some German locos getting to the coast given the importance of places such as Brest to the German navy.  Stock might well be a very mixed bag from across the Axis controlled rail network.  

[Royal42]

Thanks Andy,

quite a bit of damage there but I think I can follow the rail lines to the dock.  I was thinking of doing a scenario where torpedoes are being brought to the dock for u-boat replenishment; before the bunkers were built.

Anyone have any images of a standard French flatbed or other truck that would carry torpedoes?

 

cheers,
Mike

[Gordonwis]

2 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

Locos would most likely be French this far west but I would not discount some German locos 

 

In fact German locos would be highly likely given that some German locos got stranded at French atlantic ports during transit, and ended up being taken into SNCF stock.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Gordonwis

[Andy Hayter]

Thanks for that Gordon.

 

Regarding wagons, there could be quite a range used.  From the French range the low sided and flats from the so called TP range might well be used in significant numbers.  Of American origin and dating from 1917, they were left in Europe at the end of hostilities.

 

https://rma-49.fr/les-wagons-a-bogies-dorigine-americaine-dits-tp-1917/

 

 

[Gordonwis]

Geoportail (IGN) has 1950 maps :

 

Géoportail (geoportail.gouv.fr)

Edited September 21, 2021 by Gordonwis

[Gordonwis]

port de brest 1946 - Bing images

 

https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.dd078731abbadd9c938ac17503aa4f69?rik=XGMRqZmgnkQ3ng&riu=http%3a%2f%2farchives.ecpad.fr%2fwp-content%2fgallery%2fla-ville-de-brest-et-ses-installations-portuaires%2fMARINE-589-12868.jpg&ehk=9GkFJ4gZCPrEtfyQu27k7szDG4Pdz5sLawq%2bFAilkis%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0

Edited September 21, 2021 by Gordonwis

[Gordon A]

Any idea what the ship was in the dry dock?

[APOLLO]

Don't forget the Lancasters zooming in !!!!

 

Brit215

[petethemole]

11 minutes ago, Gordon A said:

Any idea what the ship was in the dry dock?

It looks like the Battleship Richelieu.

[petethemole]

Dieppe harbour after liberation, 1944.  I wonder if the NG track and train were a temporary thing to do with reconstruction.

[Gordonwis]

1 hour ago, Andy Hayter said:

Thanks for that Gordon.

 

Regarding wagons, there could be quite a range used.  From the French range the low sided and flats from the so called TP range might well be used in significant numbers. 

 

 

 

Indeed, wagons would probably all have been either OCEM 1929 designs or the TP wagons. Probably the only type of wagon models that would be needed for the proposed model.

OCEM 1929 was the range of French standard wagons in the inter-war period. At least one version of the OCEM 1929 fleet (drop side wagon) was included in the 'legendary' Playcraft range all those years ago...

 

 

OCEM 1929:

 

http://lestrainsjouef.free.fr/en/wag_fra/plat_2ess.html

 

https://gibitrains.pagesperso-orange.fr/en/train/wagon_couvert_gms-ocem-ree.htm

 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Gordonwis

[Gordonwis]

38 minutes ago, petethemole said:

 I wonder if the NG track and train were a temporary thing to do with reconstruction.

 

 

Without question that is a contractor's railway, not a permanent railway

Edited September 21, 2021 by Gordonwis

[Gordon A]

9 hours ago, petethemole said:

It looks like the Battleship Richelieu.

A ship with an interesting history.

[Fat Controller]

There were some wagons from British railways that were captured by the Germans when France fell. These included some Crocodiles (bogie well wagons), which survived their service with the Germans to be repatriated at the end of the war.

 

[Tony Cane]

Picture of captured wagons at Cherbourge in 1944 here

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/192879433974?hash=item2ce88298f6:g:AkYAAOSwDk5TxtUD

 

Other pictures of the area available from the same seller.

[Johann Marsbar]

This one made it to Austria and is on display in a rail museum there.....

 

 

Think its one that was converted to a War Department mobile workshop or something like that.

[Nearholmer]

A controversial subject, but rail traffic moved from France into and through Switzerland during the German occupation, and here is a Swiss wagon at a French port.

 

 

 

If you are looking for ‘casual’ photos of occupied harbours during WW2, try German search terms, because the Germans were far less strict about their troops carrying and using cameras than the British were, and they seem to have had easier access to film and processing. There was an NSDAP-run amateur photography club, linked to the propaganda ministry, so the state had a way of ‘hoovering-up’ images positive to it. Collecting WW1 and WW2 ‘snaps’ is quite a hobby in Germany, there are books of photos, and eBay is full of b&w snaps of smiling soldiers/sailors/airmen in foreign parts.

 

Here’s a snap of Calais on sale through a dealer specialising in this sort of material http://www.kriegsfotos.de/epages/17823358.mobile/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/17823358/Products/1071

Edited September 22, 2021 by Nearholmer

[D9020 Nimbus]

In the later (post-liberation) 1940s, wouldn't the USA tanks (SNCF 030TU) have been pretty common? The SNCF also had some German Wehrmacht diesels (DR V36 = SNCF 030DB) which might have been around then?

[2E Sub Shed]

Something else that made it to Austria in WW2 in this thread

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/152935-dean-goods-2435-wd188-questions/

 

[Vinedusk]

Here's some resources that might help:

 

P N Sud Modelisme

 

I'm not sure if he's still active, but various French modelisme sites seem to always a handful of pieces of this stock that may be of interest to your project.  Just to note, I've never used any, so can't actually recommend it.