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Copyright on timetables


Kris
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Does anyone know how long copyright lasts on timetables from the 1950’s. I’m assuming it’s 70 years and that some of these are now out of copyright or are nearly so. 

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5 minutes ago, Kris said:

Does anyone know how long copyright lasts on timetables from the 1950’s. I’m assuming it’s 70 years and that some of these are now out of copyright or are nearly so. 

According to Timetable World (which hosts a selection of British, European, North American and other timetables from a variety of periods), it's 30 years - at least for BR timetables. 

Edited by hexagon789
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It would only matter if you are selling copies of them on a commercial basis.  As some from much later dates than 70 years ago have been available without charge for downloading from one website for quite a few years (including WTTs) I can't see any problem.  and of course if you own an old timetable there's nothing that legally prevents you from selling it.

Edited by The Stationmaster
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My understanding is BR, as a nationalised industry, would have been governed by Crown Copyright rules therefore expiry is 50 years on from the original paper edition's publication. That expires on the 50th 1st Jan following publication therefore a 1971 issue reaches 50 years during 2021 so is out of copyright next 1st Jan = 1/1/2022. Anything issued pre-1971 is therefore already out of copyright. However, as @The Stationmaster says this only really relevant if you are republishing the material.

Edited by john new
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51 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

It would only matter if you are selling copies of them on a commercial basis.  As some from much later dates than 70 years ago have been available without charge for downloading from one website for quite a few years (including WTTs) I can't see any problem.  and of course if you own an old timetable there's nothing that legally prevents you from selling it.

 

Have you got a link to that website?

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18 minutes ago, JohnR said:

Have you got a link to that website?

 

I don't know if it's the one that @The Stationmaster is referring to, but a quick Google search threw up this as an example - http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/article/working-timetables/553 (but only really of interest if you are interested in the Western Region).

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1 hour ago, Bucoops said:

@robertcwp's site is about as comprehensive as you can get at present and gets added to regularly, and he has obtained permission to make them available.

That was for internal documents such as carriage workings and came from the now-defunct BRB Residuary. They did say that existing permissions would continue. All the stuff I have made available has been for free.

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Thanks for all those who have contributed. The links to the other sites are interesting, and they show me that I have not wasted my time over the past few weeks with the working timetable that I have. 

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23 hours ago, Dungrange said:

 

I don't know if it's the one that @The Stationmaster is referring to, but a quick Google search threw up this as an example - http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/article/working-timetables/553 (but only really of interest if you are interested in the Western Region).

That's the one ;)

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2 minutes ago, Tom Burnham said:

As I recall, BR WTTs and such like had "Private and not for Publication" on the cover, which I've always imagined was to make sure there was no obligation to send copies to the various copyright deposit libraries. Not sure how that would affect their current copyright status.

It was done for various reasons one of which was to try to make sure that they were not available to members of the legal trade to be used in evidence.  Thus anybody, including a solicitor or barrister, asking for a copy of anything marked 'Private and not for publication'  (and it was used on numerous documents) could be sent away empty handed and therefore not in a position to challenge any part of the content of a document.  They only time that would be formally broken would be when an HMRI Inspecting Officer needed to refer to smething as part of his investigation and it could then be published in his Report as a reference.

 

Things did however change with privatisation because with open access (to the railway for any operator's trains) a large amount of what had previously been labelled that way had to be made freely available to anybody who needed to look at it.  Thus for some years much of the stuff could be readily accessed online although in more recent years it has become necessary to register for much of that access.

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2 hours ago, Tom Burnham said:

As I recall, BR WTTs and such like had "Private and not for Publication" on the cover, which I've always imagined was to make sure there was no obligation to send copies to the various copyright deposit libraries. Not sure how that would affect their current copyright status.

Unless it has changed my understanding is copyright will exist on such documents but if it is only an internal non-public document the above point regarding statutory deposition exemptions does apply. Our Society's Annual Reports are therefore "internal/member use only" but still copyrighted to us; however, we don't send them off for deposition as unlike the Journal they are not regarded as a public document. To further compound the equation separate author copyright will also exist on things like the text and included photographs unless specifically excluded by something like a Creative Commons statement.

 

Minefields are simple in comparison.

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On 22/09/2021 at 10:18, john new said:

My understanding is BR, as a nationalised industry, would have been governed by Crown Copyright rules therefore expiry is 50 years on from the original paper edition's publication. That expires on the 50th 1st Jan following publication therefore a 1971 issue reaches 50 years during 2021 so is out of copyright next 1st Jan = 1/1/2022. Anything issued pre-1971 is therefore already out of copyright. However, as @The Stationmaster says this only really relevant if you are republishing the material.

 

I have pointed out before that BR timetables are not Crown copyright, because the people who produced them were not servants of the Crown.

 

Crown copyright applies, by section 163 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 to works produced by "an officer or servant of the Crown in the course of his duties". Post-nationalisation, railwaymen were not employed by the Crown but by two statutory corporations, first the British Transport Commission and then the British Railways Board. 

 

 

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