Hornby: A Model World

[russ p]

I'm not sure putting the blow torch thing in the show was a good idea even if PW said don't try this at home . Kids will be watching this program.  Was there a Pierre Waterman building a French layout in a big cathedral in Paris a few years ago!

I couldn't really see what the heat achieved 

[Dunsignalling]

21 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

Agreed -regarding the tired layouts at the Visitors Centre - they have had several opportunities in the past to do something about them but in this respect are firmly stuck with the "trainset" mindset.

 

& with all that space in the former factory they could easily construct a decent length test track with gradiants in a figure of 8 format which would curve both ways.

Never seem to see them doing any long term testing though...........

Hornby make, and wish to promote, the full range of products needed to create train set layouts. The only item they produce to go beyond that is a length of flexible track.

 

Presenting more elaborate, and dare I say, "finer scale" displays would, of necessity, involve promoting the products of others, probably dominated by Peco.

 

John

Edited November 2, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Dublodad]

It's interesting that the 5 and 7 car APT's are still on pre-order on the web site and the extra intermediate cars are in stock!!!!!

 

[john new]

2 hours ago, SamThomas said:

SK's comments along the lines of "it's just got to be right" seem a bit hollow to me with the abundance of trainset curves & poor senery on all the Hornby "layouts". Mrs T thought the APT & other trains looked "stupid" on the tight curves but did admit that it was probably to show off the tilting mechanism.*

 

Still not impressed with PW's layout. IMHO it's boring** & the speed of construction shows. Still, the public like it so I suppose in this media driven world that's all that matters.

 

*I was under the impression that the main problem with the APT (apart from the motion sickness it induced) was that the tilting mechanism was not reliable & that the pendalino's used a different system ?

 

** Then again, most of the WCML is boring !

Re tight curves, whether those who will actually buy it will have train set curves is open to doubt, BUT, if it is supposed to go around such curves then it needs to be shown off doing just that. Not one for me, even if I had space to run it, but I hope for Hornby’s sake it does sell ok.

[Fireline]

1 hour ago, SamThomas said:

Agreed -regarding the tired layouts at the Visitors Centre - they have had several opportunities in the past to do something about them but in this respect are firmly stuck with the "trainset" mindset.

 

& with all that space in the former factory they could easily construct a decent length test track with gradiants in a figure of 8 format which would curve both ways.

Never seem to see them doing any long term testing though...........

 

Bear in mind that Hornby don't own the former factory, whatever impression the programme may give. Anything put into the old factory would have to be under agreement with the owners, and probably increase the rent....

[Dunsignalling]

16 minutes ago, john new said:

Re tight curves, whether those who will actually buy it will have train set curves is open to doubt, BUT, if it is supposed to go around such curves then it needs to be shown off doing just that. Not one for me, even if I had space to run it, but I hope for Hornby’s sake it does sell ok.

Plenty of "more serious" layouts have such curves hidden away.

But the APT really isn't being made for kids, who are most likely to suffer the tight radii. Most of them will be more interested in a 80x unit anyway.

 

It's their grandfathers (and a few older dads) that carry nostalgia/admiration for the real thing, and it's them who provide the jam to go on top of Hornby's bread and butter. 

 

The APT simply doesn't inhabit the realm of non-enthusiast consciousness in the way that (for instance) Mallard and Flying Scotsman do.

 

John

Edited November 2, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[SamThomas]

10 minutes ago, Fireline said:

 

Bear in mind that Hornby don't own the former factory, whatever impression the programme may give. Anything put into the old factory would have to be under agreement with the owners, and probably increase the rent....

They have had plenty of opportunities well before the change of ownership.

 

In anycase, there would be ample room in the VC if they cleared out some of the "well past sell by date" stuff.

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, SamThomas said:

Never seem to see them doing any long term testing though...........

Well that’d make a ‘slow tv’ show all of its own! 

 

No doubt some are run until they wear out, one thing about those trainset display layouts is the stock on them racks up the mileage so they know how to design for extreme running use. 
 

My father was a bit disappointed that a new loco wouldn’t pull his long coke wagon train so I had a look. What I found was around half the wagons, some 40 years old Mainline stock, had been run so much that the axles have worn the pinpoints through and various wagons were actually at least 3mm lower and even a few were dragging the axle boxes along the railhead! A combination of wear and old plastic degradation. 

[SamThomas]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

Hornby make, and wish to promote, the full range of products needed to create train set layouts. The only item they produce to go beyond that is a length of flexible track.

 

Presenting more elaborate, and dare I say, "finer scale" displays would, of necessity, involve promoting the products of others, probably dominated by Peco.

 

John

As you say John - they produce flexible track so absolutely no excuse for set track curves i.e curve, curve, straight, curve on the VC layouts.

 

They do (or probably buy in) a fair range of scenic poducts so still no excuse for the train set image. At least they could have something better than what they have now - scale (apart from the gauge) rolling stock in toy train settings.

 

You could certainly produce a "model railway" as opposed to a "train set" from the Hornby stable.

[Dunsignalling]

Just now, SamThomas said:

As you say John - they produce flexible track so absolutely no excuse for set track curves i.e curve, curve, straight, curve on the VC layouts.

 

They do (or probably buy in) a fair range of scenic poducts so still no excuse for the train set image. At least they could have something better than what they have now - scale (apart from the gauge) rolling stock in toy train settings.

 

You could certainly produce a "model railway" as opposed to a "train set" from the Hornby stable.

Still use toy points, though....

[PaulRhB]

3 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

so absolutely no excuse for set track curves i.e curve, curve, straight, curve on the VC layouts.

But do scale modellers form the majority of visitor centre patronage? The centre is designed for enthusing those to enter the hobby and delight kids with bright wow layouts that they can pester the parents to buy a set and achieve ‘Blue Peter’ style when they get home. You don’t want to scare them off it’s more about play value and selling their basic sets and scenery. 
It could have an example of more advanced modelling using the more expensive resin buildings etc to show that but the focus is on selling the toy end as it’s a family attraction. 

[John Harris]

Having watched the series so far, I feel the editing in the programmes does Simon Kohler no favours at all.  He is obviously an enthusiastic manager with the drive to ensure the company's success, but the way the programmes were made means he is presented as an annoying "micro-manager", which I'm sure is unfair.

 

jch

[John Harris]

19 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

But do scale modellers form the majority of visitor centre patronage? The centre is designed for enthusing those to enter the hobby and delight kids with bright wow layouts that they can pester the parents to buy a set and achieve ‘Blue Peter’ style when they get home. You don’t want to scare them off it’s more about play value and selling their basic sets and scenery. 
It could have an example of more advanced modelling using the more expensive resin buildings etc to show that but the focus is on selling the toy end as it’s a family attraction. 

 

I take the layouts and displays in the visitor centre to be akin to the layouts that were a fixture in most department stores toy department's in my youth.  To attract small boys and girls of all ages while Mum & Dad were shopping.  I knew I'd see one every December to ensure I was distracted while Christmas presents were bought in the same shop!

 

Indeed, my nearest department store (Roomes in Upminster) had one of best selections of models, of all sorts, in the area and a decent layout.

 

jch

[Andymsa]

36 minutes ago, John Harris said:

 

I take the layouts and displays in the visitor centre to be akin to the layouts that were a fixture in most department stores toy department's in my youth.  To attract small boys and girls of all ages while Mum & Dad were shopping.  I knew I'd see one every December to ensure I was distracted while Christmas presents were bought in the same shop!

 

Indeed, my nearest department store (Roomes in Upminster) had one of best selections of models, of all sorts, in the area and a decent layout.

 

jch

rooms certainly a blast from the past. Don’t forget the big oval that hamleys used to have that circuited the central stair case

[RJS1977]

Or, indeed, the display stand layouts Hornby take to shows.

 

I'm not sure I completely agree with the analysis that children/young modellers wouldn't want an APT because it was before their time. Whilst I agree that it's important to have (junior-priced) models of contemporary trains, it doesn't necessarily follow that that's all they're interested in. Seeing an exciting-looking train moving round a layout at high speed can be sufficient to provoke interest, irrespective of era. Back in the 80s, plenty of 'Junior Modeller' articles featured models of streamline Coronations, which hadn't existed since WW2.

[Georgeconna]

3 hours ago, SamThomas said:

Agreed -regarding the tired layouts at the Visitors Centre - they have had several opportunities in the past to do something about them but in this respect are firmly stuck with the "trainset" mindset.

 

& with all that space in the former factory they could easily construct a decent length test track with gradiants in a figure of 8 format which would curve both ways.

Never seem to see them doing any long term testing though...........

 

Firmly stuck with the "trainset" mindset

 

Well not even one is blessed with the spare room or 20x20 ft space with nothing in it. you probably find most layouts are trainset types. The homes I have been too mostly were TBH. 6x4 or 4x8 etc.

 

As for a MN and one coach bombing around, With todays prices thats about what most families with kids would afford I'd say.

 

 

[Georgeconna]

1 hour ago, SamThomas said:

As you say John - they produce flexible track so absolutely no excuse for set track curves i.e curve, curve, straight, curve on the VC layouts.

 

They do (or probably buy in) a fair range of scenic poducts so still no excuse for the train set image. At least they could have something better than what they have now - scale (apart from the gauge) rolling stock in toy train settings.

 

You could certainly produce a "model railway" as opposed to a "train set" from the Hornby stable.

Their Flexi track aint that great either. 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Georgeconna

[sjp23480]

I think the programme reveals that Hornby have finally got to grips with segmenting their target markets. 

 

The footage suggests that Simon and his team now know who they are selling to and what they want.  The attention to detail lavished on Winston Churchill's funeral van is clearly aimed at the modellers/collectors.  Railroad is clearly for the younger end of the market - with bright colours, punchy video and soundtrack.   A major dept store in Canterbury used to carry the full Hornby range but now only stocks Railroad, track and Hornby scenics - all in their toy department.  I suspect we will see the gulf growing between the two ranges in the years ahead?

 

I am sure the VC is aimed at tourists, i.e. Mum, Dad and the kids.  I confess I have never been, despite living only an hour away. 

 

The APT is an interesting model, I wonder if Simon decided to release it having seen just how well Rapido's APT-E flew off the shelves?  That said, once the full fat sales are exhausted, will they consider resurrecting the old model for the Railroad range (assuming the moulds still exist and are serviceable) for their younger audience at a price point to match?

 

As for track, continuing to sell the legacy range with minor tweaks is probably commercially viable at home and presumably abroad?  Why release a new range when Peco has 90% of the UK market, as well as well as a few alternative suppliers offering the fidelity that most of us need.  The return on investment would take decades.

 

At the end of the day, Hornby can't please all of the people all of the time - but they appear to be trying their best.  Its just a shame that (to the best of my knowledge) neither Hornby nor Bachmann have an "recognised" presence on RMWeb, or any of the other forums.  They clearly watch these things for reviews and feedback, but I suppose they prefer to communicate through "messaging central" via Hornby.com.

 

Steve

 

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by sjp23480

[Captain Kernow]

I just saw the APT episode and thought it was fab.

 

In terms of timescales alone, I found the Pete Waterman and team layout impressive and I believe that they have raised a lot of money for charity through displaying it at Chester?

 

However, I have never, ever heard of anyone else taking a blow torch to model railway scenery!

 

[neilkirby]

4 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

My father was a bit disappointed that a new loco wouldn’t pull his long coke wagon train so I had a look. What I found was around half the wagons, some 40 years old Mainline stock, had been run so much that the axles have worn the pinpoints through and various wagons were actually at least 3mm lower and even a few were dragging the axle boxes along the railhead! A combination of wear and old plastic degradation. 

 

 When I used to work at Bec Models we had a '0' train running the length of the window during opening hours. I don't know how many miles were done, but the first we knew of an issue was when the 2 or 3 Lima 16t wagons started to derail, as this problem increased further examination revealed that the axlebox holes had slowly worn upwards until the wheel flanges were wearing away on the underside of the body

Regards,

 

Neil

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by neilkirby
typo

[Fireline]

1 hour ago, sjp23480 said:

I think the programme reveals that Hornby have finally got to grips with segmenting their target markets. 

 

The footage suggests that Simon and his team now know who they are selling to and what they want.  The attention to detail lavished on Winston Churchill's funeral van is clearly aimed at the modellers/collectors.  Railroad is clearly for the younger end of the market - with bright colours, punchy video and soundtrack.   A major dept store in Canterbury used to carry the full Hornby range but now only stocks Railroad, track and Hornby scenics - all in their toy department.  I suspect we will see the gulf growing between the two ranges in the years ahead?

 

I am sure the VC is aimed at tourists, i.e. Mum, Dad and the kids.  I confess I have never been, despite living only an hour away. 

 

The APT is an interesting model, I wonder if Simon decided to release it having seen just how well Rapido's APT-E flew off the shelves?  That said, once the full fat sales are exhausted, will they consider resurrecting the old model for the Railroad range (assuming the moulds still exist and are serviceable) for their younger audience at a price point to match?

 

As for track, continuing to sell the legacy range with minor tweaks is probably commercially viable at home and presumably abroad?  Why release a new range when Peco has 90% of the UK market, as well as well as a few alternative suppliers offering the fidelity that most of us need.  The return on investment would take decades.

 

At the end of the day, Hornby can't please all of the people all of the time - but they appear to be trying their best.  Its just a shame that (to the best of my knowledge) neither Hornby nor Bachmann have an "recognised" presence on RMWeb, or any of the other forums.  They clearly watch these things for reviews and feedback, but I suppose they prefer to communicate through "messaging central" via Hornby.com.

 

Steve

 

 

 

I am given to understand that the APT came about because of how many times it was asked for! If you had watched the previous Hornby programme, you would have seen Simon K and Dave discussing how the previous management had scrapped all of the older toolings. The APT was one of those that is now probably running round the roads of China as a bonnet.....

 

In times gone, Islesy would keep us up to date with things, and we would get the odd leak via The Engine Shed, or social media. I notice that, under the current team, all these things have stopped, and the first we know is on the first Monday in January again. I think it's a shame, but there we are. 

[AY Mod]

7 hours ago, SamThomas said:

** Then again, most of the WCML is boring !

 

Making such banal statements means that there's no credence to your other opinions.

[AY Mod]

4 hours ago, John Harris said:

Having watched the series so far, I feel the editing in the programmes does Simon Kohler no favours at all.  He is obviously an enthusiastic manager with the drive to ensure the company's success, but the way the programmes were made means he is presented as an annoying "micro-manager", which I'm sure is unfair.

 

How many times does it needed to be repeated that things are done for TV?

 

22 minutes ago, Fireline said:

the first we know is on the first Monday in January again.

 

It'll be the second Monday.

[wainwright1]

So SK says that it has to be right for the paint and the lighting !

 

Well they certainly did not get the paint right on the fairly recent LSWR New Brake Van. They have re-run the LSWR and SR post 1936 small lettered versions with nearly the right colour, but they have not re-done the SR large lettered one yet.

 

On the even more recent 4 and 6 wheeled coaches the light shows through the sides and ends, so what did not happen there ?

Perhaps they will back date and re-do these as well.

 

All the best

Ray

[SamThomas]

5 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Well that’d make a ‘slow tv’ show all of its own! 

 

No doubt some are run until they wear out, one thing about those trainset display layouts is the stock on them racks up the mileage so they know how to design for extreme running use. 
 

 

They could just show the start, finish & then the distance covered.

 

I don't think they do that much work on the VC. Some years ago a friend of mine carried out some testing for a company that manufactures HO European Outline locomotives - they would often rack up 1,000+ actual miles before wearing out the wheels or pickups. I have in my own collection & that still runs well after a new wheelset. The test track was a monitored figure of eight with a 1 in 50 gradiant pulling 10 x coaches.

 

Be very interested  to see what sort of actual distances Hornby loco motives would run.